Hand off of Gabriel at Raymond Rimkus Park

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Why this park?

A buddy of mine who lives in San Antonio just emailed me with an interesting perspective on the park (thank you, buddy :) ). He said this park is in a bad spot, not convenient to anyone or anything. This leads him to believe it had to be a San Antonio local who picked the park and gave the directions.

IIRC Tammi said that Elizabeth said that the couple was from San Antonio. But oddly, as a poster pointer out, she said "Both of them" were from San Antonio. Makes me wonder if one half of the couple is local, and the other half is not.

The couple doesn't have to be a couple in the traditional sense. They may simply have been two people who knew each other, and may not have known each other well at all.

Could have been one was from San Antonio and made the arrangements on where to meet and gave the directions and got the other one there to get Gabe, and that one is from elsewhere, picked Gabe up, and left the area or the state. I recall that Ken said he believes Gabe is no longer in Texas.
 
BeanE said:
Why this park?

A buddy of mine who lives in San Antonio just emailed me with an interesting perspective on the park (thank you, buddy :) ). He said this park is in a bad spot, not convenient to anyone or anything. This leads him to believe it had to be a San Antonio local who picked the park and gave the directions.

IIRC Tammi said that Elizabeth said that the couple was from San Antonio. But oddly, as a poster pointer out, she said "Both of them" were from San Antonio. Makes me wonder if one half of the couple is local, and the other half is not.

The couple doesn't have to be a couple in the traditional sense. They may simply have been two people who knew each other, and may not have known each other well at all.

Could have been one was from San Antonio and made the arrangements on where to meet and gave the directions and got the other one there to get Gabe, and that one is from elsewhere, picked Gabe up, and left the area or the state. I recall that Ken said he believes Gabe is no longer in Texas.
Click to expand...

Possibly a brother and sister? I am beginning to wonder that because EJ would not have known. TPS seems to know alot, too much!!
 
BeanE said:
Why this park?

A buddy of mine who lives in San Antonio just emailed me with an interesting perspective on the park (thank you, buddy :) ). He said this park is in a bad spot, not convenient to anyone or anything. This leads him to believe it had to be a San Antonio local who picked the park and gave the directions.

IIRC Tammi said that Elizabeth said that the couple was from San Antonio. But oddly, as a poster pointer out, she said "Both of them" were from San Antonio. Makes me wonder if one half of the couple is local, and the other half is not.

The couple doesn't have to be a couple in the traditional sense. They may simply have been two people who knew each other, and may not have known each other well at all.

Could have been one was from San Antonio and made the arrangements on where to meet and gave the directions and got the other one there to get Gabe, and that one is from elsewhere, picked Gabe up, and left the area or the state. I recall that Ken said he believes Gabe is no longer in Texas.
Click to expand...

I know this park well. I live close to it. Its off of a major road here in SA. If u look at a map, u will see Huebner Rd, then close to that Bandera Rd. Bandera Rd. is full of eating places, Walmart, further down is loop 1604 with a huge shopping are of Target, Old Navy etc. I don't know about it not being close to anyone or anything. Its in a populated neighborhood. I do agree tho that somebody had to kno the area to pick that particular park. I also believe that somebody had to kno the area well enough for EJ to go to that particular bus station as it is on a bad side of SA.
 
Also I wouldn't say its off the beaten path per say but it is in a wooded area. I have taken my son there alot of times. During the day its mainly moms with little ones but after school it gets really busy. There is also areas for basketball, baseball, a walking path etc. But SOMEONE would have to kno SA to pick that park...just saying
 
Is the park neighborhood mostly hispanic? Just thinking, between the HG, the park, and the bus station, it would make sense that HG set up the meeting at the park if it were in a location he was familiar with?

We all assume TS was the third party EJ trusted, so I just want to cover this possibility, if it's a possibility.

If no one wants to go with that thought, then, maybe we should check nearby churches, see if there is a connection somewhere with TS. A new church leader with ties to TN or LA? I would lean toward it being a female, women's outreach, close to TS at some point...and yes, that person, local to the park, could have had a friend from out of state come with her. Maybe a relative who happened to be in town for Christmas. He could even be married with other children, and his wife stayed at the hotel/local's home, with the kids during the handoff?
 
kissdegirl said:
Is the park neighborhood mostly hispanic? Just thinking, between the HG, the park, and the bus station, it would make sense that HG set up the meeting at the park if it were in a location he was familiar with?

We all assume TS was the third party EJ trusted, so I just want to cover this possibility, if it's a possibility.

If no one wants to go with that thought, then, maybe we should check nearby churches, see if there is a connection somewhere with TS. A new church leader with ties to TN or LA? I would lean toward it being a female, women's outreach, close to TS at some point...and yes, that person, local to the park, could have had a friend from out of state come with her. Maybe a relative who happened to be in town for Christmas. He could even be married with other children, and his wife stayed at the hotel/local's home, with the kids during the handoff?
Click to expand...

I'm with you except for the HG. Ken and Logan gave several indications that they have someone in mind for the third party. I'm thinking if it was the HG they would have indicated that. I don't know.

I think looking at the churches is an excellent idea. Maybe natural health kind of places too. Maybe music industry related.
 
kissdegirl said:
Is the park neighborhood mostly hispanic? Just thinking, between the HG, the park, and the bus station, it would make sense that HG set up the meeting at the park if it were in a location he was familiar with?

We all assume TS was the third party EJ trusted, so I just want to cover this possibility, if it's a possibility.

If no one wants to go with that thought, then, maybe we should check nearby churches, see if there is a connection somewhere with TS. A new church leader with ties to TN or LA? I would lean toward it being a female, women's outreach, close to TS at some point...and yes, that person, local to the park, could have had a friend from out of state come with her. Maybe a relative who happened to be in town for Christmas. He could even be married with other children, and his wife stayed at the hotel/local's home, with the kids during the handoff?
Click to expand...

Yes mainly Hispanic is what I have seen.
 
When was Elizabeth's decision to hide Gabe? and why?

TAMMI SMITH: Yes. She told me that she was paid up until Sunday. And we had her basically ready to come back. Sunday morning, she was going to come back.

GRACE: And then out of the blue, she just takes off?

TAMMI SMITH: Yes.


Sunday was December 27th, the morning Elizabeth handed Gabe off in the park, texted Logan and told him she had killed Gabe, and then took off for FL on the bus.

Tammi has also said that Elizabeth refused to talk on the phone to her that day, so how did she know Elizabeth was planning to head back to AZ that morning?

Why has Tammi insisted again and again and again that she did not talk with Elizabeth that day?
 
It's very important to note here, that Elizabeth did not approach Tammi - Tammi approached Elizabeth. We know this from Tammi herself - Elizabeth was seated, and Tammi walked up to her and approached her.

TAMMI SMITH: And I just knew the second I saw her, there is something wrong there. And she said — I sat down. She said something, and I don`t remember what it was. This was seven months ago. And I just immediately — What do you want to do with your baby, you know? And we — it went on from there.

Thank God for Tammi, giving us all this information, so we know right from the horse's mouth exactly what happened, how it happened, who did what, who said what, what Tammi said and did, and most importantly, exactly what Elizabeth said and did.

Elizabeth was seated, holding her little infant newborn, crying, minding her own business. Tammi approached Elizabeth. Tammi walked up to Elizabeth, and immediately tried to get Gabe from her.

So, this was not Elizabeth's idea at all. It was all Tammi's idea. Tammi immediately wanted Gabe - so much!! - that she approached Elizabeth, a young, depressed, crying girl, a stranger - and immediately tried to take her newborn baby from her.

It would be worthwhile asking the public if they've seen - or experienced! - Tammi doing this before.

Let's see - this time that Tammi approached a young woman, all alone, with no one to protect her or help her, and tried to get her little infant baby from her was July Fourth weekend 2009 in an airport, was it not?

I wonder how many times Tammi has done this? Approached young, vulnerable young girls holding their babies, minding their own business, not bothering a soul, and tried to get their babies from them? Where and when?

God, I'm starting to feel sorry for Elizabeth.

What's the age difference we have here between Elizabeth and Tammi? Are they the same age or is Tammi older, more mature, sophisticated? Is this a more predatory situation?

What about their criminal backgrounds? Let's see. Elizabeth at that point had a perfectly clean record, correct? And Tammi? How far back does her criminal record go?

My God, a convicted criminal approaching young girls alone and trying to take their babies from them. Wow.

You know, there really are two sides to every story, and I'm not so sure that I've adequately considered this from Elizabeth's side. I'm going to have to pay that due diligence this week I think.
 
BeanE said:
It's very important to note here, that Elizabeth did not approach Tammi - Tammi approached Elizabeth. We know this from Tammi herself - Elizabeth was seated, and Tammi walked up to her and approached her.

TAMMI SMITH: And I just knew the second I saw her, there is something wrong there. And she said — I sat down. She said something, and I don`t remember what it was. This was seven months ago. And I just immediately — What do you want to do with your baby, you know? And we — it went on from there.

Thank God for Tammi, giving us all this information, so we know right from the horse's mouth exactly what happened, how it happened, who did what, who said what, what Tammi said and did, and most importantly, exactly what Elizabeth said and did.

Elizabeth was seated, holding her little infant newborn, crying, minding her own business. Tammi approached Elizabeth. Tammi walked up to Elizabeth, and immediately tried to get Gabe from her.

So, this was not Elizabeth's idea at all. It was all Tammi's idea. Tammi immediately wanted Gabe - so much!! - that she approached Elizabeth, a young, depressed, crying girl, a stranger - and immediately tried to take her newborn baby from her.

It would be worthwhile asking the public if they've seen - or experienced! - Tammi doing this before.

Let's see - this time that Tammi approached a young woman, all alone, with no one to protect her or help her, and tried to get her little infant baby from her was July Fourth weekend 2009 in an airport, was it not?

I wonder how many time Tammi has done this? Approached young, vulnerable young girls holding their babies, minding their own business, not bothering a soul, and tried to get their babies from them? Where and when?

God, I'm starting to feel sorry for Elizabeth.

What's the age difference we have here between Elizabeth and Tammi? Are they the same age or is Tammi older, more mature, sophisticated? Is this a more predatory situation?

What about their criminal backgrounds? Let's see. Elizabeth at that point had a perfectly clean record, correct? And Tammi? How far back does her criminal record go?

My God, a convicted criminal approaching young girls alone and trying to take their babies from them. Wow.

You know, there really are two sides to every story, and I'm not so sure that I've adequately considered this from Elizabeth's side. I'm going to have to pay that due diligence this week I think.
Click to expand...

Thanks isn't enough....BeanE :blowkiss:
 
I apologize, I should have read just a bit further:

GRACE: And from there, she was willing to just give you the baby?

TAMMI SMITH: Well, no, not back then.

Tammi confirms for us here again that this was entirely her own idea to take Gabe from Elizabeth, and that Elizabeth was not willing to give Gabe to Tammi.

Thank you again, Tammi!
 
Jack Smith thinks it's crazy and non-normal for one to give one's baby away. I wonder why he didn't call the police and the FBI and CPS when crazy non-normal Elizabeth gave her baby to he and his wife, and when crazy non-normal Elizabeth took Gabe back on December 18. He and his wife put a defenseless, vulnerable baby into the hands of someone they considered to be insane.

And when Elizabeth put Gabe into the hands of the couple at the park, Jack considered her to be insane. Insane. Incapable of rational thought. Incapable of make rational decisions about what was in the best interests of Gabe. No sound reason for giving Gabe to the couple. Scary.

GRACE: So this is so similar to what she`s saying happened to baby Gabriel. She meets this couple in a public park, and they were kind and caring and she just gave them the baby. Why do you believe, Mr. Smith, she wanted to give away the baby?

JACK SMITH: You know — and this is something that — and I would like to interject here, if it`s OK. We are for the finding of this baby. We are not on a side. But I think that she`s looking at things through non-normal eyes. Our normal eyes say, That`s crazy. Non-normal eyes say, It happens every day.

ETA:

GRACE: Mr. Smith, when you were dealing with her about adopting baby Gabriel, what was her state of mind at that point?

J. SMITH: You know, we — honestly we had some concerns. I mean, again, we`re looking at — as I mentioned earlier, we`re looking through normal eyes. It feels — it felt a little odd, but you know what, we felt like that we could be helping this baby also if this mother did have any kind of potential emotional problems.

ETA:

J. SMITH: It don`t make sense to us. And that`s the reason we kept hanging on to her and trying to better understand her because it didn`t make any sense.

ETA:

Tammi Smith: I am not a psychiatrist, but I`m starting to see — does she have some kind of a multiple personality
 
BeanE said:
It's very important to note here, that Elizabeth did not approach Tammi - Tammi approached Elizabeth. We know this from Tammi herself - Elizabeth was seated, and Tammi walked up to her and approached her.

TAMMI SMITH: And I just knew the second I saw her, there is something wrong there. And she said — I sat down. She said something, and I don`t remember what it was. This was seven months ago. And I just immediately — What do you want to do with your baby, you know? And we — it went on from there.

Thank God for Tammi, giving us all this information, so we know right from the horse's mouth exactly what happened, how it happened, who did what, who said what, what Tammi said and did, and most importantly, exactly what Elizabeth said and did.

Elizabeth was seated, holding her little infant newborn, crying, minding her own business. Tammi approached Elizabeth. Tammi walked up to Elizabeth, and immediately tried to get Gabe from her.

So, this was not Elizabeth's idea at all. It was all Tammi's idea. Tammi immediately wanted Gabe - so much!! - that she approached Elizabeth, a young, depressed, crying girl, a stranger - and immediately tried to take her newborn baby from her.

It would be worthwhile asking the public if they've seen - or experienced! - Tammi doing this before.

Let's see - this time that Tammi approached a young woman, all alone, with no one to protect her or help her, and tried to get her little infant baby from her was July Fourth weekend 2009 in an airport, was it not?

I wonder how many time Tammi has done this? Approached young, vulnerable young girls holding their babies, minding their own business, not bothering a soul, and tried to get their babies from them? Where and when?

God, I'm starting to feel sorry for Elizabeth.

What's the age difference we have here between Elizabeth and Tammi? Are they the same age or is Tammi older, more mature, sophisticated? Is this a more predatory situation?

What about their criminal backgrounds? Let's see. Elizabeth at that point had a perfectly clean record, correct? And Tammi? How far back does her criminal record go?

My God, a convicted criminal approaching young girls alone and trying to take their babies from them. Wow.

You know, there really are two sides to every story, and I'm not so sure that I've adequately considered this from Elizabeth's side. I'm going to have to pay that due diligence this week I think.
Click to expand...

Thanks BeanE. Tammi is an evil predator, preying on the young and not so experienced.
 
BeanE said:
Jack Smith thinks it's crazy and non-normal for to give one's baby away. I wonder why he didn't call the police and the FBI and CPS when crazy non-normal Elizabeth gave her baby to he and his wife, and when crazy non-normal Elizabeth took Gabe back on December 18. He and his wife put a defenseless, vulnerable baby into the hands of someone they considered to be insane.

And when Elizabeth put Gabe into the hands of the couple at the park, Jack considered her to be insane. Insane. Incapable of rational thought. Incapable of make rational decisions about what was in the best interests of Gabe. No sound reason for giving Gabe to the couple. Scary.

GRACE: So this is so similar to what she`s saying happened to baby Gabriel. She meets this couple in a public park, and they were kind and caring and she just gave them the baby. Why do you believe, Mr. Smith, she wanted to give away the baby?

JACK SMITH: You know — and this is something that — and I would like to interject here, if it`s OK. We are for the finding of this baby. We are not on a side. But I think that she`s looking at things through non-normal eyes. Our normal eyes say, That`s crazy. Non-normal eyes say, It happens every day.
Click to expand...

Well he married TPS and that is sane? Ya know they keep throwing EJ under the bus and landed her in jail. How do they sleep at night?
 
Litlred said:
Thanks BeanE. Tammi is an evil predator, preying on the young and not so experienced.
Click to expand...

A great post here about TS as an "intraspecies predator"...
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4771765#post4771765"]Tammi Peters Smith Psych Profile and indicators - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
Saturday Dec 26, Elizabeth told Tammi she was going to a shelter.

Sunday Dec 27, Elizabeth changed her mind and told Tammi she was coming back to Arizona.

This must have been very early in the morning, because then a "third party" told Elizabeth to hide Gabe, and by 10am that same morning, Elizabeth went to the park and gave Gabe to a couple to hide him.

It sounds like Elizabeth's change of mind from coming back to AZ, to someone telling her to hide Gabe, to arrangements for the couple, to Elizabeth driving to the park, meeting the couple at 10am, and handing Gabe to them, must all have happened very very quickly.

It would be great if we had the times of the texts and calls between Elizabeth and Tammi when Elizabeth told her she was coming back to AZ. Then we'd know exactly how long it took for all those things to happen.

Whoever the third party was, must have known somebody who was already right there in San Antonio. Already in San Antonio, and all ready to accept the responsibility and risk of caring for a baby.

----

Saturday Dec 26

TAMMI SMITH: She told me, I believe it was the day before that Sunday that she had found a domestic violence — she didn`t tell me a name. She just said that that was her plan to go there and they would take care of everything because that was our last plea to come back.

----

Sunday Dec 27

TAMMI SMITH: Yes. She told me that she was paid up until Sunday. And we had her basically ready to come back. Sunday morning, she was going to come back.

GRACE: And then out of the blue, she just takes off?

TAMMI SMITH: Yes.
 
BeanE said:
Why has Tammi insisted again and again and again that she did not talk with Elizabeth that day?
Click to expand...

~ Respectfully snipped ~

My first thought? Because she did. Then, a little more thinking - she's insisting she didn't talk to EJ that day. Text? She feels she can do know wrong and by saying she didn't TALK to EJ that day, well, she isn't lying, right?

Thanks for all the snippets, BeanE. It's very interesting. I'd love for someone to ask them why, if EJ was so "non-normal" that they would protect her so much and be trying to help her get and keep Gabe from his family? Why is it after they realized she lied and realized she was "insane" they would bash Logan and stand up for EJ as they did in the beginning?

What they say doesn't make sense. Except, of course, for the things they don't realize they are saying. You are right about TS giving up so much more info than she thinks. Which is probably why her atty told her to put a sock in it.


Just want to send a Happy Easter out to everyone!

:grouphug:

Hope you all and your families are enjoying a safe and wonderful holiday! May the Lord watch over our children who are not with their families!
 
I still believe that EJ and TS "met" prior to Gabe's birth. I think that during her pregnancy EJ was looking at options and made contact with TS. I think TS put a few bugs in EJ's ears about monetary value of a newborn and probably how much better-off Gabe would be. I think that the meeting at the airport was not a fluke, I think it was set up by EJ and TS. At that point I think EJ was confused, maybe even PPD, looking for options, and recontacted TS. Then I think months went by and when things went awry with Logan, EJ reconnected with TS again.
 
Could Elizabeth have lied and told Tammi there was videotape of the couple to try to get Tammi to acknowledge involvement?

GRACE: OK, Tammi. She`s also saying the FBI has video of this couple. Where did the video come from?

SMITH: Her attorney is telling her that — she said that her attorney said the FBI has videotape of the couple leaving with the baby.

GRACE: Where did this video allegedly come from? The hotel?

SMITH: I don`t know. I`m guessing obviously the hotel. But everyone that I speak to has no such video.
 
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