Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[jamicat]

I don't know about any beer bottles. No one has reported seeing JM or Hannah holding beer bottles as they walked away from Tempo. Hannah could not exactly put one in her pocket and had no purse, and JM reportedly needed to give Hannah a lot of support at that point in time. But it would make sense that something was found showing Hannah in the car, but so what? He offered a ride, she accepted it gladly. Without some forensic evidence that he gave her more than a ride, it's going to be a problem. DA is going to have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he did not just give her a ride and let her off with a toodle loo. That he was the one who killed. Same with MH.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't know about any beer bottles. No one has reported seeing JM or Hannah holding beer bottles as they walked away from Tempo. Hannah could not exactly put one in her pocket and had no purse, and JM reportedly needed to give Hannah a lot of support at that point in time. But it would make sense that something was found showing Hannah in the car, but so what? He offered a ride, she accepted it gladly. Without some forensic evidence that he gave her more than a ride, it's going to be a problem. DA is going to have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he did not just give her a ride and let her off with a toodle loo. That he was the one who killed. Same with MH.

I'd think just to file the charges for "abduction and intent to defile" you'd need more evidence then her just being in the car.

ETA: I looked up intent to defile, and it says must have probable cause that the perpetrator had premeditation....which tells me that the defile charge has to do with something they found in his possession that would aide his ability to "defile" as opposed to evidence he had in fact actually done something with her. The abduction charge has to involve the victim being taken against their will. So I guess a date rape drug, could cover both charges. But I still wonder if there are other possibilities.

 

[Dockins]

My only guess is that perhaps there is evidence of Hannah having been in the trunk.

 

[ThinkHard]

My only guess is that perhaps there is evidence of Hannah having been in the trunk.

That could bring up abduction....but what about intent to defile?

 

[SteveP]

My only guess is that perhaps there is evidence of Hannah having been in the trunk.

The thought that she was ever in the trunk while still alive never occurred to me, but it is certainly possible, and may explain the abduction part of 'abduction with intent to defile'. I always figured that as incapacitated as she was, it was probably safer, and surely would have been easier just to open the passenger door and put her in the front, but who knows? He certainly was physically big enough and strong enough to get her into the trunk, though it would have taken more time and been far riskier as far as being seen. I don't believe that she was in his trunk after she was killed though, because Chief Longo continued to express belief that she could still be alive for quite a while after his car was searched. Whether or not he actually believed that is questionable. I do think if they had any evidence that she was in the trunk after being murdered, they would have already charged him with murder. JMO

 

[Priester]

My ex husband lives in Charlottesville. He told me he played poker at a friend's house with JM 4 days after Hannah went missing. My ex says nothing was strange about JM's demeanor, he acted completely normal and nothing seemed out of the ordinary.. although this was my ex's first time meeting him. SO scary and insane that someone could (allegedly) rape and murder a person and continue on living his life as if nothing happened. :/

The reason for LJ's lack of affect after committing such a heinous act is because it meant no more to him than killing a cockroach.

 

[jbowman55]

I was looking at this time line, specifically, the dates in which they first got results back from their search, it first says "lab results" expected on 9/23, the charges are filed. Then on on 9/23 charges of abduction with intent to defile...I understand that perhaps the grounds for abduction, in part comes with the "last person to be seen with her", but I would think for abduction they would need some proof of "against her will". Later when they announce the MH connection they say "forensic link". I guess I'm dissecting police verbage....

So my thought is when they are referring to "forensic link" they are referring to DNA somehow connecting him to the case. And I know we are all thinking his DNA. But that announcement also came 2 days after the cab is seized. So perhaps Morgans DNA is in that cab, and that is the "forensic link" and perhaps his DNA is on her pantera t-shirt, which matches perfectly the DNA in the Fairfax case. So while they can prove he was likely in contact with her, they do not have enough evidence to prove he abducted, or murdered her...which is why we have yet to see official charges.

I think we were all thinking the MH link was to his apartment...but perhaps it was the cab.

Which bring me back to the wording on the charges in HG, they do not say "forensic link" they say based on "lab reports" which makes me think they do do, or at least did not, at that point have or use DNA evidence to file those charges. So what other evidence could it be....the eye witnesses and cameras we know....but perhaps lab results that reveal drugs in his possession? Something of hers? Having more video of them actually getting in the car? Perhaps evidence that shows how incapacitated she was...?
I don't know?

Any thoughts? Perhaps from those more familiar with exactly what "lab results" would help in filing "abduction" and "defile" charges? Defile just sounds like you'd have to have pretty specific evidence.

Also do we know for sure that LE does not have HG phone? I know they have never said that they have it, but have they said they don't? Could it have been in his apt? Or car...with his fingerprints where they key pad is? Confirmed by a lab?

BBM

The other thing that happened shortly before VSP announced the "forensic link" between JM and MH is that JM was arrested on a Federal warrant in Texas, at which time LE would have taken a sample of his DNA. I need to add this to the timeline.

While it's entirely possible that something came from the van, the timeframe seems kinda tight to me, and I'd be more inclined to think that the "hit" was on the DNA sample that LE in Texas collected.

 

[dove28]

That could bring up abduction....but what about intent to defile?

evidence of her in the trunk with handcuffs/zipties, and any sex "toys" or "accessories" perhaps

 

[makista]

Yep, that doesn't make any sense to me either. She walked independently all night then was suddenly so incapacitated she got into a car? A friend at previous party offered to walk her home, and someone at McGrady's offered help. Then she went with JM? Unless maybe she did not want him to know where she lived, so she was going to have him drop her nearby and walk a block or two home?

I agree. When she first went missing ( or on the first thread) I did notice her stance upon leaving her apartment building. When I brought it up, everyone said, "She always walked with a purpose" and then I got feedback as to her apartment in the picture was never shown ( which was wasn't where I was going with this anyway) Upon leaving her apartment building, I noticed when she saw the two people in the hallway, she kind of arched forward with her body and acted kind of surprised, then turned around and started walking the other way immediately with her arms above her waist. It's just body-language that I am talking about really but her head was tilted upward when walking away. I thought then, that maybe she didn't want to go back to her apartment.. but she walked like that all night and it was almost like she was biding time to go back to her apartment and with the routes she took. ( pure speculation, but an observation) and then the getting lost part. She had lived in Charlottesville ( or close) since she was 7 or 8 years old, and I find it strange that she never went to the downtown mall. I don't see how the downtown mall should be viewed as somewhere to get lost. To me, I don't know why she should be using a GPS. Also, she lived on/close to campus for a year and a half.

 

[Jmoose]

It doesn't sound likely that LE will find evidence of this with Hannah's body, but based on the charges filed in her disappearance, they likely found evidence of a date rape drug in a vessel that also had Hannah's DNA or fingerprints on it. I wonder if her fingerprints were available to LE, as she wasn't a native?

 

[Priester]

Amen, otto.
Forget political correctness, no 32 year old who shows interest in an 18 year old has good intentions.

 

[tlcya]

restraints (zipties or cuffs or something) with Hannah's DNA on them. A bottle or can in the car which has her DNA and possibly traces of some sort of drug (rufie)

 

[SteveP]

I agree. When she first went missing ( or on the first thread) I did notice her stance upon leaving her apartment building. When I brought it up, everyone said, "She always walked with a purpose" and then I got feedback as to her apartment in the picture was never shown ( which was wasn't where I was going with this anyway) Upon leaving her apartment building, I noticed when she saw the two people in the hallway, she kind of arched forward with her body and acted kind of surprised, then turned around and started walking the other way immediately with her arms above her waist. It's just body-language that I am talking about really but her head was tilted upward when walking away. I thought then, that maybe she didn't want to go back to her apartment.. but she walked like that all night and it was almost like she biding time to go back to her apartment and with the routes she took. ( pure speculation, but an observation) and then the getting lost part. She had lived in Charlottesville ( or close) since she was 7 or 8 years old, and I find it strange that she never went to the downtown mall. I don't see how the downtown mall should be viewed as somewhere to get lost. To me, I don't know why she should be using a GPS. Also, she lived on/close to campus for a year and a half.

BBM...IIRC, she had lived in Fairfax, VA since she was 7 or 8 years old. That is 100 miles from Charlottesville, not what I would consider close enough to know much about it before enrolling at UVA. JMO

ETA...she was from Alexandria, which is still about the same distance away

 

[jbowman55]

The thought that she was ever in the trunk while still alive never occurred to me, but it is certainly possible, and may explain the abduction part of 'abduction with intent to defile'. I always figured that as incapacitated as she was, it was probably safer, and surely would have been easier just to open the passenger door and put her in the front, but who knows? He certainly was physically big enough and strong enough to get her into the trunk, though it would have taken more time and been far riskier as far as being seen. I don't believe that she was in his trunk after she was killed though, because Chief Longo continued to express belief that she could still be alive for quite a while after his car was searched. Whether or not he actually believed that is questionable. I do think if they had any evidence that she was in the trunk after being murdered, they would have already charged him with murder. JMO

It also makes sense to me that, once they impounded JM's car, they would have brought in the cadaver dogs to see if they "hit" on the car. They would have had a pretty good idea that she was already dead, and we'd probably never have seen quite the scale of searching that we did see.

 

[FindHG]

My ex husband lives in Charlottesville. He told me he played poker at a friend's house with JM 4 days after Hannah went missing. My ex says nothing was strange about JM's demeanor, he acted completely normal and nothing seemed out of the ordinary.. although this was my ex's first time meeting him. SO scary and insane that someone could (allegedly) rape and murder a person and continue on living his life as if nothing happened. :/

Wow. Thank you for sharing this. I hope more people like your ex and his friends feel compelled to search their memories and let LE know, especially. The sooner the better. Glad your ex called twice. Hope you all are doing well and things get better as things move forward. Did he recall his face, not the poker one, physically? Anything out of the ordinary?

 

[ThinkHard]

I agree. When she first went missing ( or on the first thread) I did notice her stance upon leaving her apartment building. When I brought it up, everyone said, "She always walked with a purpose" and then I got feedback as to her apartment in the picture was never shown ( which was wasn't where I was going with this anyway) Upon leaving her apartment building, I noticed when she saw the two people in the hallway, she kind of arched forward with her body and acted kind of surprised, then turned around and started walking the other way immediately with her arms above her waist. It's just body-language that I am talking about really but her head was tilted upward when walking away. I thought then, that maybe she didn't want to go back to her apartment.. but she walked like that all night and it was almost like she was biding time to go back to her apartment and with the routes she took. ( pure speculation, but an observation) and then the getting lost part. She had lived in Charlottesville ( or close) since she was 7 or 8 years old, and I find it strange that she never went to the downtown mall. I don't see how the downtown mall should be viewed as somewhere to get lost. To me, I don't know why she should be using a GPS. Also, she lived on/close to campus for a year and a half.

I do not believe she lived near Charlottesvilles since she was 7 or 8. She was from Alexandria....a good 2 hours North.

 

[Skigirl]

I agree. When she first went missing ( or on the first thread) I did notice her stance upon leaving her apartment building. When I brought it up, everyone said, "She always walked with a purpose" and then I got feedback as to her apartment in the picture was never shown ( which was wasn't where I was going with this anyway) Upon leaving her apartment building, I noticed when she saw the two people in the hallway, she kind of arched forward with her body and acted kind of surprised, then turned around and started walking the other way immediately with her arms above her waist. It's just body-language that I am talking about really but her head was tilted upward when walking away. I thought then, that maybe she didn't want to go back to her apartment.. but she walked like that all night and it was almost like she was biding time to go back to her apartment and with the routes she took. ( pure speculation, but an observation) and then the getting lost part. She had lived in Charlottesville ( or close) since she was 7 or 8 years old, and I find it strange that she never went to the downtown mall. I don't see how the downtown mall should be viewed as somewhere to get lost. To me, I don't know why she should be using a GPS. Also, she lived on/close to campus for a year and a half.

The coming/going shots are fifteen minutes apart, so we don't have any shots of her turning and walking away immediately upon seeing others in the hall. Also, she had only been in C'ville for two semesters prior to her disappearance. Those first two semesters in college are pretty all-absorbing for most people. Usually students are focused on campus and not the surrounding community. Just my experience.

 

[avhuebner]

BBM...IIRC, she had lived in Fairfax, VA since she was 7 or 8 years old. That is 100 miles from Charlottesville, not what I would consider close enough to know much about it before enrolling at UVA. JMO

Well, Fairfax COUNTY. She had lived in Alexandria.

 

[jbowman55]

restraints (zipties or cuffs or something) with Hannah's DNA on them. A bottle or can in the car which has her DNA and possibly traces of some sort of drug (rufie)

She could also have gotten sick while she was in his car. Even if he attempted to clean that up, he probably wouldn't have been able to do a thorough-enough job of it to keep CPD from finding evidence of it, and if she was drugged, they'd have found that, too.

 

[ThinkHard]

It doesn't sound likely that LE will find evidence of this with Hannah's body, but based on the charges filed in her disappearance, they likely found evidence of a date rape drug in a vessel that also had Hannah's DNA or fingerprints on it. I wonder if her fingerprints were available to LE, as she wasn't a native?

Why would being a native increase her chances of having finger prints?