Hannah Graham: The Search - #3

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ValleyGirl21 said:
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I guess I must have missed that post. The OP makes some valid points about the area. The trails may not be a good area to commit a crime, being that the parking lot is in plane view. :thinking: I'm just concerned with his interest in Spotsy. I'll send in my tip for sure.[/QOUTE]


jbowman55 said:
For anyone unfamiliar with Spotsylvania, the county is full of woods
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briefed respectfully

I swear I think he has a hidey-hole where he keeps victims alive for a while after he's abducted them. Think about it.

There is no way to say, in relation to any of these potential victims who have been killed, exactly when they died, since either they haven't been located at all, or if they have, it's been so long and the remains are so degraded, that the exact date and time of death can't be determined. There is no reason, in my mind, to think that he goes through (whatever his scenario is) quickly.

This is horrible to say, and I hope none of the victims' family members ever read it, but here goes: whereas most times the experts say that rape is about power rather than sex, I think with JM it's actually about power AND sex. I think he is a sex addict, among other aberrant things. And if that's true, why go through all the risk and turmoil of procuring a source for what you desperately want and need, only to throw it away again immediately?

Gil said that the authorities told her that MH had been in that field since shortly after she was abducted. I cannot for the life of me believe that they can know that MH wasn't kept alive for at least a few days after she was abducted, after that long a time.

I have felt from the beginning, or very nearly the beginning, that HG was located in more than one place over the days right after she disappeared. This first occurred to me when JM reacted so strongly to being followed by LE, after that Saturday he showed up at the PD. Trying to think that situation through, I think he freaked out because he had "things" to do yet, and he couldn't do them with LE following him every move he made. Further on that train of thought, I think that might be when he wound things up and actually disposed of HG as part of preparing to get the H*ll out of Dodge.

If there's any way this scenario could have happened, then he'd had to have had a location in which to keep captive a person who very much wanted to get loose and run. He'd also have had to have room to "maneuver." Omg.

Anyway, this is what my gut tells me. Feedback, anyone?
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The idea that JM may have picked a place farther away from home has come up before. Most interestingly, it seems to me, as it relates to what's put out there in the post above. Considering the location JM was captured has immensely strong ties to another very well known SK, who used that very spot to bury his victims, there's a good chance the predator in this case may have learned and admired the practice. Also, as more and more people teased him about his likeness to police perp sketches he may have wanted to go farther away to a place that could not be linked to him by family ties.
 
My biggest fear is what we don't know about JM. I have full confidence in Longo. He is smart, educated, experienced and passionate toward Victims. He/they are slowly building a case.
 
MOD NOTE: I don't want to close this thread permanently, and I'm always reluctant to delete good posts. On the other hand, moving posts to the appropriate threads is time consuming, tedious, and breaks up the flow of the discussion. So, for the last time, PLEASE think before you post. Otherwise, you leave me with little choice but to delete your OFF TOPIC posts.

Hint: If your post does not in some way relate to a location, even indirectly, then it is more than likely off topic, and belongs in one of the many other active threads in this forum.

Bessie

ETA: Please feel free to bump this post when necessary.
 
As I recall the only info on hannah"s clothes was on fb which we all know is rumor and it was later erased. I do think that very little more searching will occur because of the costs. The police are probably hoping the hunters will find something. They will slowly work their way through the tips and hope they cause more information to be revealed. If several crimes are related in 3 different cities does the first city bear the expense?
 
ksj3 said:
DNA link to MH - NOT to Fairfax. One does not necessarily equal the other. We have to discuss facts here, not beliefs or reasonable conclusions. That wouldn't stand up in court and, according to WS policy, it's not allowed here without IMO/JMO/MOO/"if".
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Yes. Certainty is not now possible with the case pending but, just to stay focused on the search, could the DNA discussion be more appropriate for the other thread about
The Charges Against JLM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?257735-The-Charges-Against-Jesse-Leroy-Matthew/page6
 
Jmo it is not difficult to hide a body, and does not require big brains. Bodies are much harder to find than it would appear. If LE does not have info as to where the suspect traveled after the crime, it is almost hopeless. Seems like LE or search groups seldom find murder victims on planned searches, Imo. Some random person walking their dog seems most common. Look at RT with Alexis for example, also Katelyn Markham, Hailey Dunn, and others. Jmo
 
brainysthenewsexy said:
I just emailed the tip about Seven Bends State Park. Praying Hannah is found soon.
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Thank you! Hopefully more people will do the same who have a good grasp of their surroundings and are thinking this through, jogging memories out from the past.
 
cluciano63 said:
Jmo it is not difficult to hide a body, and does not require big brains. Bodies are much harder to find than it would appear. If LE does not have info as to where the suspect traveled after the crime, it is almost hopeless. Seems like LE or search groups seldom find murder victims on planned searches, Imo. Some random person walking their dog seems most common. Look at RT with Alexis for example, also Katelyn Markham, Hailey Dunn, and others. Jmo
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I agree completely, there's this notion that people have to be something more than a knuckle dragger to rape, kill and hide women successfully, then keep trophies. I see them as limited individuals with aberrant brains that obsess on this and nothing else, dumb enough to think it gives some secret cache and distinction. When it comes down to it they, to me, look like furtive little men enjoying their own macabre gruesome sissy tea party because their dumb enough or sick enough to think it makes them above the rest and special.

JM may have not been smart just adept. He's in jail after all. Given the time he had to think what he did through, the pattern these SK sissies take about hiding their trophies, that they progress as they go along in the reaction to the risks they face, to me, it doesn't sound like rocket science, just persistence and evil. It will take persistence and good will to find Hannah Graham and bring her home. Who would want to be part of a serial killer's pathetic little tea party except those of a similar bent? Anyone who knew this predator, I humbly think, would want to purge themselves of anything that helps in the search as it all dawns on them.
 
Man I just posted this huge long response and it went poof! :banghead:

So I'll give the cliff note version. . .

I'm curious about JM going to the Lazy Parrot Grille that night. Reviews say they have bad food and bad service but cheap drinks. He's a regular there and is usually alone. Why? He only had one drink that night. Could this bar he's a regular at be near his dump sight? It's not near his home or his work, so it's an outlier. . .something that doesn't fit.

Bundy and Ridgway dumped their victims in secluded spots, but not remote areas. It would be easy to return to their victims without having to park their cars somewhere suspicious. Places that were easy access but just enough off the beaten path that nobody would likely find it out. I think where JM put Morgan is similar. It sure sounds secluded, but it really doesn't look that remote. It's not too far off Hwy 29.

And my last thought, as much as I'm interested in Hwy 250W, would JM stick to Hwy 29 for his own ego's sake? Often times these killers leave calling cards. They don't want their victims to be attributed to some other killer. Ugh. . .I hate even typing that, but it's true.

ETA- Being from the PNW there are really remote areas, but being seen in one of those areas would make you stick out like a sore thumb. Where Bundy and Ridgway left their victims eliminated that. The parking lot at Tiger Mountain trailhead, on a nice weekend can be full. However, people stick to the trail. So you could literally go 200ft off the trail at some random spot and it would be so secluded that no one may ever pass there. I think Hannah will be somewhere similar.
 
Curious, if there are some Virginians who would be able to please describe the various roads on the map below, in terms of isolation late at night, traffic & speed traps? The reason I'm asking is that, the woman who went missing there was never found. If for some conceivable reason or other it may be possible this is the same predator, then it may stand to reason, that since that hiding place worked out for him, perhaps after Morgan Harrington was found, he returned to it.

4/21/08 Gracie MacCord - Spotsylvania County

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Cha...70dbbb0cfec22b9!2m2!1d-77.6077865!2d38.204165
 
hambirg said:
Man I just posted this huge long response and it went poof! :banghead:

So I'll give the cliff note version. . .

I'm curious about JM going to the Parrot Bay Grille that night. Reviews say they have bad food and bad service but cheap drinks. He's a regular there and is usually alone. Why? He only had one drink that night. Could this bar he's a regular at be near his dump sight? It's not near his home or his work, so it's an outlier. . .something that doesn't fit.


And my last thought, as much as I'm interested in Hwy 250W, would JM stick to Hwy 29 for his own ego's sake? Often times these killers leave calling cards. They don't want their victims to be attributed to some other killer. Ugh. . .I hate even typing that, but it's true.
Click to expand...

The Lazy Parrot Grill I think is where you're talking about. It's in a well populated area, but right on 250W and the river. It's a quite popular place given they have live local music and cheap drinks. The area immediately surrounding it has been well covered, I believe. There are some interesting spots out Free Bridge Lane (which leads, the back way, to a local park) and on the other side of the river, on the other side of 250 from Lazy Parrot. I don't know if the wooded areas around the park, on either side of the river, were searched, but those are all pretty populated areas, certainly compared to Anchorage Farm.

IIRC, the river (not sure what portions) has been cleared from aerial searches.

One thing that keeps sticking out to me, from MH, assuming he's her perp, is that MH was placed "with intent" by someone who knew the area well and had no trouble overcoming obstacles in the dark, in a place where "no one ever goes." I think they key is going to be figuring out where he frequented. It'll likely be that simple. Outlying areas, then off the beaten path, where no one ever goes.

What is your interest in 250W? Why do you prefer to keep him, rather, on 29? 29's been "claimed" already, to follow your line of thinking. :(
 
hambirg said:
Man I just posted this huge long response and it went poof! :banghead:

So I'll give the cliff note version. . .

I'm curious about JM going to the Parrot Bay Grille that night. Reviews say they have bad food and bad service but cheap drinks. He's a regular there and is usually alone. Why? He only had one drink that night. Could this bar he's a regular at be near his dump sight? It's not near his home or his work, so it's an outlier. . .something that doesn't fit.

Bundy and Ridgway dumped their victims in secluded spots, but not remote areas. It would be easy to return to their victims without having to park their cars somewhere suspicious. Places that were easy access but just enough off the beaten path that nobody would likely find it out. I think where JM put Morgan is similar. It sure sounds secluded, but it really doesn't look that remote. It's not too far off Hwy 29.

And my last thought, as much as I'm interested in Hwy 250W, would JM stick to Hwy 29 for his own ego's sake? Often times these killers leave calling cards. They don't want their victims to be attributed to some other killer. Ugh. . .I hate even typing that, but it's true.

ETA- Being from the PNW there are really remote areas, but being seen in one of those areas would make you stick out like a sore thumb. Where Bundy and Ridway left their victims eliminated that. The parking lot at Tiger Mountain trailhead, on a nice weekend can be full. However, people stick to the trail. So you could literally go 200ft off the trail at some random spot and it would be so secluded that no one may ever pass there. I think Hannah will be somewhere similar.
Click to expand...

Great point.

The notion struck me at some point that he may have taken those highways home on a high of sorts.

The tickets may have been a sub-conscience thing of his of acting out and remorse, or knowingly, for a thrill. It would put him in court house where he secretly may have relished all those around who knew not his greatness as an SK, like in getting a thrill from 'i have em all fooled.'
 
Although deer season (firearms) is weeks away, many hunters will go into the woods ahead of time to scope out and prepare areas to set up camps or stands. This provides so many more eyes out there that can help in the search; what has LE done to reach out to this group, beyond simply making statements to the media? It would be great if every license application or renewal came with a flyer describing her clothing and items, etc.
 
This is the only thread I could find that would be appropriate for this question. Do any of you know: (a) from how many feet away can a human smell decomposition, and (b) in general, how many days post mortem does the body produce an odor, and for long does that odor last?

I realize many factors come into play, such as buried/not buried, temperature, etc. but to be logical, lets just say the current temps in VA and not buried. I have tried to Google this and each site claims different answers. I am wondering if it is too late for searchers to go out and be able to find her by smell.
 
hambirg said:
Man I just posted this huge long response and it went poof! :banghead:

So I'll give the cliff note version. . .

I'm curious about JM going to the Lazy Parrot Grille that night. Reviews say they have bad food and bad service but cheap drinks. He's a regular there and is usually alone. Why? He only had one drink that night. Could this bar he's a regular at be near his dump sight? It's not near his home or his work, so it's an outlier. . .something that doesn't fit.

Bundy and Ridgway dumped their victims in secluded spots, but not remote areas. It would be easy to return to their victims without having to park their cars somewhere suspicious. Places that were easy access but just enough off the beaten path that nobody would likely find it out. I think where JM put Morgan is similar. It sure sounds secluded, but it really doesn't look that remote. It's not too far off Hwy 29.

And my last thought, as much as I'm interested in Hwy 250W, would JM stick to Hwy 29 for his own ego's sake? Often times these killers leave calling cards. They don't want their victims to be attributed to some other killer. Ugh. . .I hate even typing that, but it's true.

ETA- Being from the PNW there are really remote areas, but being seen in one of those areas would make you stick out like a sore thumb. Where Bundy and Ridway left their victims eliminated that. The parking lot at Tiger Mountain trailhead, on a nice weekend can be full. However, people stick to the trail. So you could literally go 200ft off the trail at some random spot and it would be so secluded that no one may ever pass there. I think Hannah will be somewhere similar.
Click to expand...

FYI 29 becomes 250 for a stretch.
 
FindHG said:
Curious, if there are some Virginians who would be able to please describe the various roads on the map below, in terms of isolation late at night, traffic & speed traps? The reason I'm asking is that, the woman who went missing there was never found. If for some conceivable reason or other it may be possible this is the same predator, then it may stand to reason, that since that hiding place worked out for him, perhaps after Morgan Harrington was found, he returned to it.

4/21/08 Gracie MacCord - Spotsylvania County

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Cha...70dbbb0cfec22b9!2m2!1d-77.6077865!2d38.204165
Click to expand...

250 and 64 are four lane highways (though 64 expands near more populated areas). The other numbers are most likely 2-lane, 50-55 mph roads. The named streets are probably residential or commercial, 35 or 25 mph roads. Hope that helps.
 
avhuebner said:
250 and 64 are four lane highways (though 64 expands near more populated areas). The other numbers are most likely 2-lane, 50-55 mph roads. The named streets are probably residential or commercial, 35 or 25 mph roads. Hope that helps.
Click to expand...


And it's all pretty much rural. Fredericksburg is the biggest city in Spotsylvania. BUT I highly doubt he went north. South would be his comfort zone and much easier to hide something.
 
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