Hannah Graham: The Search - #3

[jbowman55]

I don't know about how religious Jesse was. But a rural cemetary would be a great place to dump a body. The cadaver dogs certainly are not going to be able to track it there.

Can we talk for a minute about religious-ness? Dunno, this may be particular to Baptists, or Southern Baptists, but in my mind (knowing what it's like to be raised up as Southern Baptist in the 50s) it may have more bearing on JM's actions than we've realized up to this point.

If some of these characteristics we've discussed are true, the ways in which he resembles other SKs, and then the ways that make his family think he's a "good boy," and the way he knows how to be bumbling and friendly to people, he has got to be the most conflicted, confused person who ever lived. Does he have Dissociative Identity Disorder?

I went back and looked and the Downtown Mall video again a couple days ago. He does not hesitate for an instant, once he spots HG, he finds the nearest spot he can to turn around and follow her without being so obvious that everyone on the Mall would have noticed it. It's like he has a switch that flipped, and he went from Mode 1 to Mode 2 instantly. Or maybe he was already in Mode 2, seeing as how he'd been manhandling people all evening, feeling up the women and making sure the men knew how quickly he could put them in their places. Maybe the switch flipped earlier in the day.

So he's all these different characters, imo. He's the good boy, he's a palsy fisherman, he's someone most people in the community wouldn't think twice about, and certainly wouldn't be scared of, he's just sort of there and comfy and helpful. He's also the guy who jumped out of his car and punched a guy in the face. Then he's the guy who felt bad about it almost immediately, and fell over his own feet apologizing and trying to make it right.

Ok, so how to make it right? He offered to take the guy to the hospital, right? He paid the medical bills, right? He actually did take action, or offered to take action, to make it right. Even if he was only protecting himself, there's something in his mind that realized he'd just done something he shouldn't have done, and he needed to make it right.

The question is to me: how much of this was conscience? Does he actually HAVE a conscience? Once the switch flips off again, I bet he does, but it more often than not gets overridden by his instinct for self-preservation.

How do you make it right when you've just beaten a woman to death? What does your raised-in-country-church conscience do to you then?

A rural cemetery would be an excellent place, not to DUMP a body, but to lay a body to rest.

All moo, of course.

Feedback?

ETA: Also have been meaning to say this: from personal experience, to leave the Downtown Mall and head toward JM's apparent "comfort zone," the easiest way to go would be to pick up Monticello Ave from any of the numbered streets downtown. Once you pass the intersection of Monticello Ave and Avon St, you're on Hwy 20, headed out into "the country," and it's a straight shot down 20 toward a myriad of isolated, remote alternatives, the intersection of Red Hill Rd, or on into the Scottsville area, on toward Nelson County and the Howardsville Tpke area I mentioned before.

I know that some of that area has already been searched a couple of weeks ago, from reading about search areas along the Rockfish River.

ETA2: Also meant to say that, once that switch has flipped, JM has lost control. Again, imo. He can't stop it, possibly doesn't WANT to stop it.

 

[jamicat]

They may since all the other bodies in the cemetary have had the blood pulled from their bodies before being buried and are embalmed.

IMO

Ha. Good point. No idea how that would work with cadaver dogs. Though I did read this: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/09/22/4174025/cadaver-dogs-find-unmarked-graves.html and other articles that seemed to indicate they can even find solitary bones.

 

[zapped]

Besides JBowman (#877) suggesting Howardville Turnpike/Road, Sleuths have suggested two other possibilities on the Search thread (that I recall):

1. Jesse Matthew was at a football game at Massanutten Military Academy near the unfinished new Seven Bends State Park on the day Hannah Graham disappeared.
To cross the Shenandoah river, he would have had to use the Hwy 609 bridge and then 609 S. Hollingsworth to the park site.
Map - https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zhH0NjEZuy28.kQI70Tl9nPsA (#668)

2. Another park site that Jesse Matthew had shown an interest – Spotsylviania Greenways - http://spotsylvaniagreenways.org/ has several trails: http://spotsylvaniagreenways.org/?page_id=11 (#657)

Have any of the dog search teams investigated these areas?

Are there any other specific sites you would like to have a search made?

Good find on the new state park. If he saw the park construction that evening, especially if it had an 'opening on this date" sign, he may have realized that it would be deserted and easy to get to, even if it was only subconsciously.

It might even have been why he decided to camp at a state park in Texas, so he could relive the thrill before he was caught or had to leave the country.

I would definitely phone this tip in!

 

[Bryan9]

I don't know about how religious Jesse was....

Very, it seems. He regularly attended Calvary Chapel of Charlottesville, an evangelical Protestant church that is housed in an old auto repair shop building not far from the intersection of I-64 and South Fifth Street.

 

[Bryan9]

Can we talk for a minute about religious-ness? ... So he's all these different characters, imo. He's the good boy, he's a palsy fisherman, he's someone most people in the community wouldn't think twice about, and certainly wouldn't be scared of, he's just sort of there and comfy and helpful. He's also the guy who jumped out of his car and punched a guy in the face. Then he's the guy who felt bad about it almost immediately, and fell over his own feet apologizing and trying to make it right. Ok, so how to make it right? He offered to take the guy to the hospital, right? He paid the medical bills, right? He actually did take action, or offered to take action, to make it right. Even if he was only protecting himself, there's something in his mind that realized he'd just done something he shouldn't have done, and he needed to make it right.... The question is to me: how much of this was conscience? Does he actually HAVE a conscience? Once the switch flips off again, I bet he does, but it more often than not gets overridden by his instinct for self-preservation....

Excellent question and wonderful post ... I think this helps to explain why JLM went into week-long blue funks (1) after being teased by fellow worker about how much he resembled the composite perp portrait in the MH and Fairfax cases, and (2) after MH disappeared... co-workers reported that he was no longer his cheery, friendly self but ate his lunch off somewhere, alone. So this does lend credibility to the idea that there might have been some crazy religious association with his choice of a disposal site...

 

[zapped]

Very, it seems. He regularly attended Calvary Chapel of Charlottesville, an evangelical Protestant church that is housed in an old auto repair shop building not far from the intersection of I-64 and South Fifth Street.

Just wanted to point out that just because someone attends church regularly doesn't mean they're religious.

That might be what theyre trying to portray to the rest of the world but Ive met some truly terrible people who claimed religion but didnt actually practice it.

There been more than a few serial killers who professed to be born-again.

He could have just liked the social aspect of it.

Or he could have been looking for easy and trusting prey.

Perhaps LE should speak to members of that congregation and appeal to their benevolence? They might even provide some solid leads on the search.

 

[human]

Can we talk for a minute about religious-ness? Dunno, this may be particular to Baptists, or Southern Baptists, but in my mind (knowing what it's like to be raised up as Southern Baptist in the 50s) it may have more bearing on JM's actions than we've realized up to this point.

If some of these characteristics we've discussed are true, the ways in which he resembles other SKs, and then the ways that make his family think he's a "good boy," and the way he knows how to be bumbling and friendly to people, he has got to be the most conflicted, confused person who ever lived. Does he have Dissociative Identity Disorder?

I went back and looked and the Downtown Mall video again a couple days ago. He does not hesitate for an instant, once he spots HG, he finds the nearest spot he can to turn around and follow her without being so obvious that everyone on the Mall would have noticed it. It's like he has a switch that flipped, and he went from Mode 1 to Mode 2 instantly. Or maybe he was already in Mode 2, seeing as how he'd been manhandling people all evening, feeling up the women and making sure the men knew how quickly he could put them in their places. Maybe the switch flipped earlier in the day.

So he's all these different characters, imo. He's the good boy, he's a palsy fisherman, he's someone most people in the community wouldn't think twice about, and certainly wouldn't be scared of, he's just sort of there and comfy and helpful. He's also the guy who jumped out of his car and punched a guy in the face. Then he's the guy who felt bad about it almost immediately, and fell over his own feet apologizing and trying to make it right.

Ok, so how to make it right? He offered to take the guy to the hospital, right? He paid the medical bills, right? He actually did take action, or offered to take action, to make it right. Even if he was only protecting himself, there's something in his mind that realized he'd just done something he shouldn't have done, and he needed to make it right.

The question is to me: how much of this was conscience? Does he actually HAVE a conscience? Once the switch flips off again, I bet he does, but it more often than not gets overridden by his instinct for self-preservation.

How do you make it right when you've just beaten a woman to death? What does your raised-in-country-church conscience do to you then?

A rural cemetery would be an excellent place, not to DUMP a body, but to lay a body to rest.

All moo, of course.

Feedback?

ETA: Also have been meaning to say this: from personal experience, to leave the Downtown Mall and head toward JM's apparent "comfort zone," the easiest way to go would be to pick up Monticello Ave from any of the numbered streets downtown. Once you pass the intersection of Monticello Ave and Avon St, you're on Hwy 20, headed out into "the country," and it's a straight shot down 20 toward a myriad of isolated, remote alternatives, the intersection of Red Hill Rd, or on into the Scottsville area, on toward Nelson County and the Howardsville Tpke area I mentioned before.

I know that some of that area has already been searched a couple of weeks ago, from reading about search areas along the Rockfish River.

Love your ideas, but wasn't the BTK killer a deacon in his church? And wasn't Ridgway super reilgious reading his Bible all of the time?

I don't think he was worried about doing wrong with the lawyer. He was thinking about consequences. Nothing to do with caring. Zip. He has zero conscience.

Those women he raped at college owed him sex. And then he got in trouble for it.

He is entitled . There is no good JLM. I do not believe it anymore for one second.

I do not believe there was a good John Gacy , or BTK inspite of all of their civic contributions.,

 

[zapped]

I think that if there were two different sites, for kill and disposal, LE would have an idea about that since they have JM's car and the cadaver dogs would sniff it out if there were ever a cadaver in there. Though Longo might not have been focused on sticking to the facts or the evidence, he did say something about the possibility that Hannah was still alive, something he might not have said if those dogs had IDed that car as having carreid a corpse.

He's an impatient person. I don't think the deed was done far from where he left. He was on the prowl that night and once he had Hannah, I don't think he'd want to wait to long to do his deal I really think she's near Tempo, like a 10-15 min drive from there on some private property that is just not one where the owners keep tabs.

What if the cab(van) was the torture site?

 

[margarita25]

Can we talk for a minute about religious-ness? Dunno, this may be particular to Baptists, or Southern Baptists, but in my mind (knowing what it's like to be raised up as Southern Baptist in the 50s) it may have more bearing on JM's actions than we've realized up to this point.

If some of these characteristics we've discussed are true, the ways in which he resembles other SKs, and then the ways that make his family think he's a "good boy," and the way he knows how to be bumbling and friendly to people, he has got to be the most conflicted, confused person who ever lived. Does he have Dissociative Identity Disorder?

I went back and looked and the Downtown Mall video again a couple days ago. He does not hesitate for an instant, once he spots HG, he finds the nearest spot he can to turn around and follow her without being so obvious that everyone on the Mall would have noticed it. It's like he has a switch that flipped, and he went from Mode 1 to Mode 2 instantly. Or maybe he was already in Mode 2, seeing as how he'd been manhandling people all evening, feeling up the women and making sure the men knew how quickly he could put them in their places. Maybe the switch flipped earlier in the day.

So he's all these different characters, imo. He's the good boy, he's a palsy fisherman, he's someone most people in the community wouldn't think twice about, and certainly wouldn't be scared of, he's just sort of there and comfy and helpful. He's also the guy who jumped out of his car and punched a guy in the face. Then he's the guy who felt bad about it almost immediately, and fell over his own feet apologizing and trying to make it right.

Ok, so how to make it right? He offered to take the guy to the hospital, right? He paid the medical bills, right? He actually did take action, or offered to take action, to make it right. Even if he was only protecting himself, there's something in his mind that realized he'd just done something he shouldn't have done, and he needed to make it right.

The question is to me: how much of this was conscience? Does he actually HAVE a conscience? Once the switch flips off again, I bet he does, but it more often than not gets overridden by his instinct for self-preservation.

How do you make it right when you've just beaten a woman to death? What does your raised-in-country-church conscience do to you then?

A rural cemetery would be an excellent place, not to DUMP a body, but to lay a body to rest.

All moo, of course.

Feedback?

ETA: Also have been meaning to say this: from personal experience, to leave the Downtown Mall and head toward JM's apparent "comfort zone," the easiest way to go would be to pick up Monticello Ave from any of the numbered streets downtown. Once you pass the intersection of Monticello Ave and Avon St, you're on Hwy 20, headed out into "the country," and it's a straight shot down 20 toward a myriad of isolated, remote alternatives, the intersection of Red Hill Rd, or on into the Scottsville area, on toward Nelson County and the Howardsville Tpke area I mentioned before.

I know that some of that area has already been searched a couple of weeks ago, from reading about search areas along the Rockfish River.

ETA2: Also meant to say that, once that switch has flipped, JM has lost control. Again, imo. He can't stop it, possibly doesn't WANT to stop it.

All I'm going to say about this is that Ariel Castro had something on his facebook about how much he loved God, or something to that effect.

 

[jbowman55]

What if the cab(van) was the torture site?

I'll second that.

 

[human]

What if the cab(van) was the torture site?

That does make sense in that the media is saying zip about this van. No location, no pic, nothing.

I think that must be the search warrant that was super sealed.

I imagine the media has someone following LE, but nothing on this van.

 

[jamicat]

Religious is a subjective word. That someone can go to services, work with a religion, have others consider the person devout, the person considers self devout, and in many cases we;ve seen attain high position within a religion, being a priest, pastor, rabbi, does not exempt them from doing horrible things. Somehow, some people can compartmentalize their lives and actions to live different ways without a thought Look at organized crime and how those so deepley and horribly involved are considered devout in their faith.

I think JM and a lot of people like him dont see a thing wrong with "prowling" for women and then taking advantage of any they might find who look vulnerable, and helping them a lont in that vulernabilty and coercing if that doesn't work. I think it's something that has been happening for a very long time and still is. We hear about it when a victim screams, foul or is missing or found dead or maimed, to a point where LE and the general population have to pay attention to the case. Otherwise it all gets packaged into the category of consensual sex.

 

[jamicat]

That does make sense in that the media is saying zip about this van. No location, no pic, nothing.

I think that must be the search warrant that was super sealed.

I imagine the media has someone following LE, but nothing on this van.

I wonder too. It's quite the distance away, though, isn't it, like a whole other county (Nelson??).

 

[jbowman55]

Love your ideas, but wasn't the BTK killer a deacon in his church? And wasn't Ridgway super reilgious reading his Bible all of the time?

I don't think he was worried about doing wrong with the lawyer. He was thinking about consequences. Nothing to do with caring. Zip. He has zero conscience.

Those women he raped at college owed him sex. And then he got in trouble for it.

He is entitled . There is no good JLM. I do not believe it anymore for one second.

I do not believe there was a good John Gacy , or BTK inspite of all of their civic contributions.,

BBM. This is the instinct for self-preservation driving his actions, imo. No doubt also, though, in my mind, that different SKs can each develop their own kind of twisted relationship to religious matters, just like they develop twisted relationships to people and everything else.

 

[Foxfire]

Love your ideas, but wasn't the BTK killer a deacon in his church? And wasn't Ridgway super reilgious reading his Bible all of the time?

I don't think he was worried about doing wrong with the lawyer. He was thinking about consequences. Nothing to do with caring. Zip. He has zero conscience.

Those women he raped at college owed him sex. And then he got in trouble for it.

He is entitled . There is no good JLM. I do not believe it anymore for one second.

I do not believe there was a good John Gacy , or BTK inspite of all of their civic contributions.,

Yep BTK used the Church's PC to download info on a disc to communicate with LE. That's how he was caught. Many serial killers past used religion's cape to hide behind. SK Gary Hilton passed himself off as a traveling preacher to a clerk in a NC Trading Post while accompanying Rosana Miliano, who later disappeared without a trace.. GMH; an avid reader could quote scripture from the old testament Bible.. Just one of the many ruses he used to remain stealth..

 

[Bryan9]

What if the cab(van) was the torture site?

Then JLM is toast, basically.

 

[jbowman55]

That does make sense in that the media is saying zip about this van. No location, no pic, nothing.

I think that must be the search warrant that was super sealed.

I imagine the media has someone following LE, but nothing on this van.

I thought this myself at first, that the van was found and was related to the Nelson Co search warrant, but the date isn't quite right - that is, unless LE released a time frame that isn't quite right.

Oct 9 was when the media published their blurbs about the van having been seized "two weeks ago," which give or take a day, would have meant that the van was found on Sept 24/25/26. Two of those three days the searchers were working Carter's Mountain.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/26630951/crews-search-for-hannah-graham-on-carter-mountain

IIRC the Nelson search warrant was served on Oct 1 or 2. Anyone remember specifically? I know it's in the scanner thread.

 

[Bryan9]

Religious is a subjective word. That someone can go to services, work with a religion, have others consider the person devout, the person considers self devout, and in many cases we;ve seen attain high position within a religion, being a priest, pastor, rabbi, does not exempt them from doing horrible things. Somehow, some people can compartmentalize their lives and actions to live different ways without a thought Look at organized crime and how those so deepley and horribly involved are considered devout in their faith.

You're right, of course. I think the merit of jbowman's post is that JLM has shown some signs, at least, of struggling with his conscience, microscopic though it may be.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Are there details anywhere of where searches were done within city limits of Charlottesville?

 

[themom]

Very well could be!!!