Hannah Graham: The Search - #3

[joerose]

I think he is always in mode 2. I think that is what he was doing out that night. Looking for a victim. I think that is the only reason he was out at all. Very, very sad.

 

[oxenrider1966]

some of you ppl just went way off topic your talking about shoes / crocs that has nothing to do with a missing girl so can we all go back to trying to think of where he would of dumped her off at and he's sitting in jail thinking how the hell he can get out of this mess and we our free ppl trying to pick his brain .

 

[jamicat]

What if the cab(van) was the torture site?

Then I guess AG has found that site. And then he moved the body elsewhere. Since LE has defined the search radius to be 8 miles from where Hannah was last seen, however, not radiating from where the cab was found, I don't think so. Also, unless we want to discount Longo's statement, that he thought Hannah could still be alive not that long ago, but still at least a couple of weeks after the search commenced, there hasn't been a postive hit by the cadaver dogs for her at the car or cab

 

[MJPeony]

Then I guess AG has found that site. And then he moved the body elsewhere. Since LE has defined the search radius to be 8 miles from where Hannah was last seen, however, not radiating from where the cab was found, I don't think so. Also, unless we want to discount Longo's statement, that he thought Hannah could still be alive not that long ago, but still at least a couple of weeks after the search commenced, there hasn't been a postive hit by the cadaver dogs for her at the car or cab

I think it's possible there has been a hit at the cab. They never said there wasn't, and Longo may have not released all inside information. If the cab was truly found already and had been searched by the dogs before his last presser (when he stated hope she could still be alive) it's possible he just didn't want to say anything about it. Not totally sure why he'd volunteer the hope of life if he knew otherwise. But maybe it's been shown the public has greater urgency and interest in helping to search for a person who may still be alive and in peril, than if they know it's "just" a search and recovery mission. :thinking:

 

[klily444]

I've been thinking about his escape route all day. What I keep coming back to is the thought that he probably didn't go too far for several reasons. Because he seems to be impulsive, I don't think he has the control to wait very long to get started. Also, unless he rendered Hannah completely unconscious soon after leaving Tempo, there's the chance she could have regained her wits. If she had been drugged, the effects of GHB last a very short time so he wouldn't have long to get where he was going. If she was drunk and fell asleep, he might have a bit longer but I don't think he would have taken the chance she would regain consciousness while he was driving, IMO.

Afterwards, he could then have taken her to a different location possibly, but I still don't think it would have been far away. And I think it was all done that night because he could not afford to be missing too long afterward or take a chance someone would see him.

With regard to being a regular downtown, I think he trolled that area because he saw it as the best chance to get lucky without people becoming suspicious. He obviously didn't think he was being videotaped because of the controversy in town about cameras and the lack thereof, thank goodness.

ETA: I hope that LE revisits some of the areas they have searched closer to town because it's difficult to cover every inch the first time.

BBM. This is what I thought too, except for the fact that once he had Hannah with him, he supposedly went into Tempo for a couple drinks. This would leave me to believe he is patient enough to drive her a long ways. Or, it could just mean that he needed to get her a drink so he could drug her, in order to start his mission, and once started he was very impatient. I'm 50/50 on this.

 

[human]

A theory, yes, but it seems to me, that he has more important and immediate issues when he has a body, a girl to dispose of than jealousy of wealth and dumping on the wealthy class farms.

Huh?

Thinking of disposal sites and why he may dispose.

I am of the thought process that he hates women, therefore he kills them.

And he may be of the thought process that he hates the well to do, of which he was denied the opportunity vecause of women.

So he may be acting out his hatred. Who knows.

 

[FindHG]

Howardsville Turnpike, which turns into Howardsville Rd.

I've mentioned Howardsville several times, probably the most remote-seeming place I've ever been in my life. It's where my friend and I stayed in a cottage a couple of times, and is about halfway between Hwy 29/Lovingston to the west and Hwy 60 and 15/Sprouse's Corner to the east. It could very well be that you could drive the entire length of that road at 3 am and never pass another car.

I keep coming back to think about this area, because it keeps coming up in the conversation of others here on WS, because it's fairly close to where JM grew up, and most likely because it's the only part of that area that I've really spent any time in.

But it is so remote. So remote and quiet, and there would be SO much privacy.

Thank you. Very helpful to know this

 

[FindHG]

Whiskers,

"But always be aware of who is around you. Who is watching you.)" is very good advice.
In fact, I tell people to observe their dog when they let them outside. Most dogs, unless they have to relieve themselves urgently, will take a few steps and stop. Then they will put there nose to the air to monitor the area for any strange scents. They will also look around for anything unusual and or out of place. That's why they sometimes react so wildly, barking, growling, and charging at something as insignificant(to us) as a large branch that is laying in your yard. That branch wasn't there yesterday and as far as they know, it ain't supposed to be there now. A dog is a predator and if they utilize these "anti-ambush rituals" maybe we should learn from that.

Unfortunately, in my experience most people honestly believe that bad things won't happen to them. If you try to give them any kind of safety advice, it's like "la la la...I can't hear you...shut up" they won't even entertain the thought that something bad could happen to them. It honestly scares them to think about it.

Hear you loud and clear, dude

 

[SteveP]

I think it's possible there has been a hit at the cab. They never said there wasn't, and Longo may have not released all inside information. If the cab was truly found already and had been searched by the dogs before his last presser (when he stated hope she could still be alive) it's possible he just didn't want to say anything about it. Not totally sure why he'd volunteer the hope of life if he knew otherwise. But maybe it's been shown the public has greater urgency and interest in helping to search for a person who may still be alive and in peril, than if they know it's "just" a search and recovery mission. :thinking:

I would be inclined to believe if anything was found in the cab that tied to a crime, it most likely would have been Morgan's case, or perhaps another unsolved case rather than to Hannah's disappearance. From appearances, he barely kept his orange car in running order. I doubt the cab was anything more than a non-running piece of junk when it was abandoned, and we don't even know with certainty that he abandoned it or even knew it's location, though we can surmise that he probably knew at least that. As to the cab being the potential "hidey hole" or "torture chamber", I doubt that. He is a big fella and probably needs more room to do his deeds in, and as far as hiding places, for bodies anyway, there are far less conspicuous and safer places to put someone than in a vehicle that can be tied to you, even if you think it is out of plain sight. I don't profess to know enough about DNA to know whether or not a specific person's DNA can be plucked from a van that undoubtedly had very many occupants over time, after five years, but I really think any clues the van may have given up most likely pertain to Morgan. Having said all this, IF JM was the one who ditched the van at the location it was found, and again, we don't know this one way or the other, then that immediate area MIGHT hold sentimental value to him and be a place he would dump a body, but I am certain LE would surely have had the same thoughts and checked that area very, very well. JMO

 

[FindHG]

There are really only two ways to go. You could go down Route 29, a four-lane road with lots of VSP units, day and night. Or you could take Route 20 south to Dillwyn, and take U.S. Route 15 south to Buckingham County. The problem with this route is that it's a notorious speed trap, again day and night, and a major revenue generator for the county ... Given that JLM's car had an outdated inspection sticker and he was "driving while black," and with an incapacitated (and perhaps injured or dying) passenger, it seems reasonable that he'd do all he could to stick to poorly-lit, lightly traveled back roads where he'd be unlikely to encounter a police cruiser.

Thank you. A great help. You're kind to explain so patiently.

 

[whiskers]

Just thought of this as I checked my crawl space for water accumulation. Hopefully LE has searched crawl spaces under apartments and homes of JM and his relatives.

 

[FindHG]

snipped for brevity

Foxfire , it is some what interesting to note that there is an old cemetery here 37.972469, -78.615534
located between Farm Vista and Red Hill Rd. approximately 1 mile south as the crow flies, from the area MH remains were located.

Yes. Interesting indeed, considering where the sweet, young, promising, angelic Jamisha Gilbert was found. Believe to have been caught in a wreck, she disappeared and about week later, was found in unclothed, tucked in briar patch in a graveyard. Cassandra Morton, a mom, herself, who received little notice in life or death, was also found about a month later in Lynchburg near Liberty U, 4 years before Jamisha Gilbert.

Considering this, if for any reason and none that I know of, they both may have been raped and murdered by the same predator, it could possibly play into JM's sense of remorse, which may have come into play as well, with Morgan Harrington's Panetera shirt showing up, while her parents appealed for help. If JM may have kept Hannah Grahams clothing in his apartment, which I have no way knowing he actually did, maybe he was girding himself for whatever was to come with the investigation.

10/10/09 Cassandra Morton missing - Lynchburg, VA http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...rg-10-Nov-2009
11/29/09 Cassandra Morton - body found on Liberty University property

11/29/13 Jamisha Gilbert missing after car accident- Lynchburg http://www.newsadvance.com/news/loca...7a43b2370.html
12/8/13 Jamisha Gilbert body found in briar patch in cemetery - unclothed

Info from #10 post here:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/3...9424,156m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

 

[margarita25]

Just thought of this as I checked my crawl space for water accumulation. Hopefully LE has searched crawl spaces under apartments and homes of JM and his relatives.

This is a good idea, whiskers.

ARS kept Jessica's head and hands in his crawlspace.

 

[margarita25]

For reference:

"Morton went missing on October 10, 2009. Several weeks later, a hiker discovered the 23-year-old’s decomposed body on Candlers Mountain, near Camp Hydaway, a retreat owned by Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University".

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?92211-VA-Cassandra-Ann-Morton-23-Lynchburg-10-Nov-2009&p=11078439#post11078439

So, if JM is responsible for this, we have a mountain / camp retreat type area. I don't think he would use this site again since she was found, but similar locations might be useful to consider.

Also, note the possible religious relation/significance:

"Jerry Lamon Falwell, Sr. (August 11, 1933 – May 15, 2007)[1] was an American evangelical Southern Baptist pastor, televangelist, and a conservative political commentator.[2] He was the founding pastor of the Thomas Road Baptist Church, a megachurch in Lynchburg, Virginia. He founded Lynchburg Christian Academy (now Liberty Christian Academy) in 1967, Liberty University in 1971, and co-founded the Moral Majority in 1979."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Falwell

 

[margarita25]

What about the George Washington National Forest...?

(This is so frustrating---she could be anywhere...)

 

[oceanblueeyes]

JM was very bold when he kidnapped Morgan. He is a high risk taker. I don't have one doubt about that. It may be a part of the perverted thrill as the actual abduction/rape and murder. Maybe this comes from years of him never being held accountable for his criminal acts. We have seen that happen in other cases. Example: A husband kills his first wife but it goes unsolved or is mistakenly thought to be a suicide. Then he marries again and the same thing happens and if he marries others they too wind up dead. What I mean, I think when someone gets away with murder or rape or both it makes them think they are untouchable so they do it again and again until they are finally caught.

He drove a long distance when he had Morgan. He seemed self assured he could take her in his cab and no one would be the wiser, and sadly, they weren't. Then he takes great strides to put her way off the road up against a fence line in a very remote area. Either he forced her to walk that distance or he had already murdered her and carried her that far and I don't think that would be a feat he couldn't do easily. So it is obvious he had no fear of being apprehended or even stopped the night she disappeared. It makes me wonder if they possibly found zip-ties in his abandoned cab.

So I think Hannah is in an area that isn't in the standard 8 mile radius.

If they find her it will be in a very remote area and hard to get to even by foot possibly. While SKs may change the disposal site of their victims some of the MO will remain consistent. I think the way in which he murdered Hannah is most likely very similar to the way Morgan was murdered.

He seems to be more comfortable in deep woods. Possibly because there is less chance of being seen or the victim's screams heard.

I just wish someone could remember seeing his vehicle the night Hannah was abducted. If they could just get tips of his car being spotted in a certain area it would help them immensely.

One thing I haven't quite understood though. Did the phone they seized of his not have GPS? Somehow I see him owning a smart phone. Can they track the cell towers he passes even if he has his phone cutoff? I do know by prior cases that it can take some time to get that information back from the service provider. I have seen it take up to 6-8 weeks in other cases.

IMO

 

[Foxfire]

What about the George Washington National Forest...?

(This is so frustrating---she could be anywhere...)

All over State and National Forest lands, there are old 1800 and early 1900 home sites. Outdoor persons familiar with the area would be aware of many of their locations. On the ridge behind the home sites is usually where the family cemeteries were located. Many times rocks were used as headstones. There are historians that plot these old home sites/cemeteries' locations..

African-American Cemeteries in Virginia <see photos - slideshow>
https://www.facebook.com/AfricanAme...0.1413151714./816174991761223/?type=1&theater

Hidden-History-American-Cemeteries-Virginia
http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-History-American-Cemeteries-Virginia/dp/0813935342

 

[goldenbear]

Any announcements on the search this weekend?

 

[Skigirl]

This weekend there was supposed to be an intensification of the search, but I haven't found a single MSM story about how things went. Has anyone heard anything/seen any articles?

IMO, she's likely to be found unexpectedly by luck. As all of the ideas floating around on this thread show, the possibilities are almost endless. I wouldn't be surprised if she was found by a hunter within an area that's already been marked as 'searched'.

 

[sreshowtime]

A theory, yes, but it seems to me, that he has more important and immediate issues when he has a body, a girl to dispose of than jealousy of wealth and dumping on the wealthy class farms.

True in a sense yes, but I beg to differ... IMHO his socioeconomic status could well play into his decision making processes...from selecting a victim to method employed to incapacitate to choice of disposal site. Everything about the perp is important to consider, drawing on his perceived inequalities,debating his wants vs. needs...just everything can be used as a tool to mold/locate pieces to complete the puzzle....imo, especially when a presumed victim is still unlocated. Laborious and speculative , sure, but if the desired outcome is achieved, so be it.