Hannah's Journey on 09/13

[ThinkHard]

IMHO, the ideas in this thread are starting to veer off into the twilight zone. The woman in the video is now handing off a date rape drug to JM? The bouncer at Rapture left Rapture to follow HG and then happened upon JM also following her but gave LE a description that was pretty far off-base for someone who knew the JM (although not far off-base for someone who was not familiar with him and was seeing him quickly in the dark)? :alien::beamup:

I see what your saying, but you also seem to be basing this on taking everything that we have been told by LE or that has been reported is absolute fact. That may be a fallacy in itself.

I have a hunch that JM independently of his murders, as least in terms of motive, was involved with some powerful and moneyed drug connections in the local area. And I think there are some powerful people at play here, and it influence LE's approach to this case.

Also I'd be willing to bet that if you asked around Cville in whether people thought Cville PD could be guilty of corruption, there would be many people who would answer that with an emphatic yes.

 

[hambirg]

I have re-watched this video at quarter speed a few times now, and have a few observations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8WV9wLBzdg

The woman clearly has a cell phone in her right hand. You can see it lit up at :19, so it was going off or was recently used.

It does look like she passes it off to JM. At :23 as she raises her hand the phone can be seen horizontal, meaning it's not laying flat in her hand anymore, but sort of flipped up pointed at JM.

At :27 and :28 can see something black in JM's right hand. At :29 it looks like he may have switched it to his left hand.

Curiously, a video that is suppose to be about Hannah that is 57 seconds long, doesn't show Hannah enter until the :39 mark. . .over 2/3 the way in. That early part of the video was specifically included for significance. MOO

The group behind Hannah wasn't all males. You can clearly see the last person in that group is a woman at :50. There might be another in the middle of the group, but I couldn't figure it out for sure. It's either another woman or a very short man. JM looks to interact with the woman in the back. At the very end before the video is cut off, it looks like she trips. They cut the video there for some reason. I think the males might have had words with JM at that point???

All MOO and my observations.

 

[aHoo]

I have a hunch that JM independently of his murders, as least in terms of motive, was involved with some powerful and moneyed drug connections in the local area. And I think there are some powerful people at play here, and it influence LE's approach to this case.

Also I'd be willing to bet that if you asked around Cville in whether people thought Cville PD could be guilty of corruption, there would be many people who would answer that with an emphatic yes.

Many people, ThinkHard? I'm curious as to what info you are basing that supposition on? I know you have put a lot of thought and time into sleuthing this case, but I have not read anything that would lead to that conclusion. Is there a basis for this that you would like to share?

Personally, I have been very impressed with the way LE has handled themselves in this case, especially with regard to how they have maintained tight control over what they are sharing with the media. I have to think this is going to redound to their benefit when we get to the courtroom. And I want nothing more than to see justice done when it comes to holding HG's killer responsible for his gruesome deeds.

 

[ThinkHard]

Many people, ThinkHard? I'm curious as to what info you are basing that supposition on? I know you have put a lot of thought and time into sleuthing this case, but I have not read anything that would lead to that conclusion. Is there a basis for this that you would like to share?

Personally, I have been very impressed with the way LE has handled themselves in this case, especially with regard to how they have maintained tight control over what they are sharing with the media. I have to think this is going to redound to their benefit when we get to the courtroom. And I want nothing more than to see justice done when it comes to holding HG's killer responsible for his gruesome deeds.

I'm basing that entirely on my own impression of how locals i knew viewed Cville PD while I was living there. This topic came up many times. In my impression, the gist was many locals didn't "trust" their words not mine, Cville PD.

 

[netsleuth]

Thank you for finding the link! It reminded me LE was also saying at the time of the video release, that the POI did not appear on any of the videos. We know that's not true. I still think it was all media strategy. I think they already had him under surveillance, because very shortly after they were executing the search warrant on his car. MOO. . .LE said something like a tip from a neighbor led to the search. I'm really not totally buying that. Pure speculation, but what if LE saw JM walk out of his apartment late at night and put something sparkly in his car? That would give LE probable cause to search the car. And if they did find Hannah's top, that would be enough to get the search warrants for his aprtment and phone.



This. Yep and yeppers. :yes:

I could not agree more. I believe LE is often disingenuous with the public, to the point of out and out lying to suit their own needs. LE wants information from the public, but they want to manage and control the information flow, to the extent possible, to ensure accurate information flows one way -- to them.

 

[Fancynancy]

I definitely think it's a cell phone. And on my screen, yes you can see their hands make contact (BARELY, but you can see half of their contact on the left of the screen- right at the edge). It's JM's right hand to her right hand. I don't know why it would be assumed it would be left hands if they were high-fiving (?) They were passing on that side. I don't think a high-five would have lasted any longer. But I no longer think it's a high-five. I agree it's hard to see anything in his hand afterwards- not only hard, but I don't think I see anything. But it's fuzzy. And as already said, something small wouldn't be visible.

I think OP means if you face someone each right hand is farthest away from the center and not how people would high-five.
ETA: sorry, even though I've watched this 20-odd times I see JLM appears to walk between the girls, so ignore my attempted clarification here

 

[SteveP]

I see what your saying, but you also seem to be basing this on taking everything that we have been told by LE or that has been reported is absolute fact. That may be a fallacy in itself.

I have a hunch that JM independently of his murders, as least in terms of motive, was involved with some powerful and moneyed drug connections in the local area. And I think there are some powerful people at play here, and it influence LE's approach to this case.

Also I'd be willing to bet that if you asked around Cville in whether people thought Cville PD could be guilty of corruption, there would be many people who would answer that with an emphatic yes.

BBM...Respectfully, you could find people in any city in America that would say their PD could be guilty of corruption. Doesn't mean that they are.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I have re-watched this video at quarter speed a few times now, and have a few observations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8WV9wLBzdg

The woman clearly has a cell phone in her right hand. You can see it lit up at :19, so it was going off or was recently used.

It does look like she passes it off to JM. At :23 as she raises her hand the phone can be seen horizontal, meaning it's not laying flat in her hand anymore, but sort of flipped up pointed at JM.

At :27 and :28 can see something black in JM's right hand. At :29 it looks like he may have switched it to his left hand.

Curiously, a video that is suppose to be about Hannah that is 57 seconds long, doesn't show Hannah enter until the :39 mark. . .over 2/3 the way in. That early part of the video was specifically included for significance. MOO

The group behind Hannah wasn't all males. You can clearly see the last person in that group is a woman at :50. There might be another in the middle of the group, but I couldn't figure it out for sure. It's either another woman or a very short man. JM looks to interact with the woman in the back. At the very end before the video is cut off, it looks like she trips. They cut the video there for some reason. I think the males might have had words with JM at that point???

All MOO and my observations.

About the end of that video...it sure does look like JM is talking to someone. I've thought that group was heckling/taunting HG...maybe JM was telling them to lay off....

 

[SteveP]

I could not agree more. I believe LE is often disingenuous with the public, to the point of out and out lying to suit their own needs. LE wants information from the public, but they want manage and control the information flow, to the extent possible, to ensure accurate information flows one way -- to them.

LE agencies are under no obligation to make citizens privy to all the information they have when they are seeking help from them. They are certainly not going to try a case in the media by giving the inquiring public all of their suspicions or knowledge about a situation. Do they sometimes lie to the public? Sure they do, usually more by omission than commission. We as a public feel like we are entitled to know every tidbit they have if LE has the gall to ask us for information or help. I find that ridiculous frankly, and potentially dangerous, but maybe it's just me. JMO

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

LE agencies are under no obligation to make citizens privy to all the information they have when they are seeking help from them. They are certainly not going to try a case in the media by giving the inquiring public all of their suspicions or knowledge about a situation. Do they sometimes lie to the public? Sure they do, usually more by omission than commission. We as a public feel like we are entitled to know every tidbit they have if LE has the gall to ask us for information or help. I find that ridiculous frankly, but maybe it's just me. JMO

Keeping things quiet is one thing, but lies--I can't condone that, ESPECIALLY when there is a missing person.

In this case, I believe there was a shift in trying to capture MH's murderer rather than having HG as their priority.

 

[ILOKAL]

LE agencies are under no obligation to make citizens privy to all the information they have when they are seeking help from them. They are certainly not going to try a case in the media by giving the inquiring public all of their suspicions or knowledge about a situation. Do they sometimes lie to the public? Sure they do, usually more by omission than commission. We as a public feel like we are entitled to know every tidbit they have if LE has the gall to ask us for information or help. I find that ridiculous frankly, and potentially dangerous, but maybe it's just me. JMO

No, SteveP, it's not just you. This public's "right" to know has just gone TOO far and yes, it is ridiculous.

 

[jamicat]

Keeping things quiet is one thing, but lies--I can't condone that, ESPECIALLY when there is a missing person.

In this case, I believe there was a shift in trying to capture MH's murderer rather than having HG as their priority.

I agree with this. With some exceptions, such when a deliberate trap is being set. I don't think at the time when LE was trying to find out who was with Hannah at the mall, that was the case. It was simply confusion, IMO. WG went to LE, when the word came out that Hannah was missing because he remembered seeing her. He either did not pay much attention to JM, or wasn't interested in identifying him, I tend to go with the earlier assumption because WG really did not have to go report to LE. Though the case is about as high profile as they come, a surprising number of people barely paid it any mind Hapens all of the time.

In short order, LE, by visiting the mall, was able to get a description and a name, JM, as to who was with Hannah They were seen there, and JM was known to many at the mall, so it wasn't that difficult to get that connection. The videos, IMO, are such bad quality, that unless someone knew what was on there, making any accurate statement is nigh impossible. But if there, it helps joggle the memory cells. We have to remember that while it was happening, it was not any big deal. People who have drunk too much at that time of day on a weekend are common fare.

I see no reason for LE to have lied about JM's appearance as it only causes confusion and hampers further ID of him. And they were clearly "desperate" (their own words) for sightings of him and/or Hannah during those days. Confusing matters makes no sense.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I have never used GPS on my phone, but thinking about those texts and the locations that didn't make sense. Is it possible that she typed a text--maybe thought she sent it, and then typed the location where she wanted to go? Doesn't GPS already know where you are? In her condition, she was no doubt having problems hitting the right keys. (re: Main St., when she was on Preston & 4th & Wertland when she was downtown)

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

No, SteveP, it's not just you. This public's "right" to know has just gone TOO far and yes, it is ridiculous.

There are just too many mistakes made by LE to put blind faith in their actions. They are accountable to the public, and I don't think it's ridiculous at all to have as much information released as possible. Cover ups happen all the time, and at some point you start to question...why? Is it legitimate, or do they just not know what they're doing and don't want that fact to become public knowledge?

 

[jamicat]

No, SteveP, it's not just you. This public's "right" to know has just gone TOO far and yes, it is ridiculous.

I don't know how far is too far. In the MH and other cases, I think LE was too tight lipped. Parents and others often involved with these cases are very resentful of how close to the chest LE keep the info, and feel strongly that not releasing some info compromises some of these cases. The public can be of great help as there are eyes and ears places LE cannot reach.

The Leiby Kletzky case was solved quickly because civilians, not LE quickly got video footage and watched every moment until the little boy showed up on there. How long it would have taken LE to have gotten there, who knows, but the community moved like lightening when the boy was reported missing. In the end, maybe too quickly, as all of the missing posters that went up so fast, scared the perp and may have motivated him to kill the boy.

 

[Cymbaline]

I have an iPhone and i think it would be very obvious to HG. She may have been using siri to help find her way to wherever she wanted to go and it accidentally got sent as a text?? It depends on her personal iPhone settings from the lock screen.

I have never used GPS on my phone, but thinking about those texts and the locations that didn't make sense. Is it possible that she typed a text--maybe thought she sent it, and then typed the location where she wanted to go? Doesn't GPS already know where you are? In her condition, she was no doubt having problems hitting the right keys. (re: Main St., when she was on Preston & 4th & Wertland when she was downtown)

 

[ILOKAL]

I have never used GPS on my phone, but thinking about those texts and the locations that didn't make sense. Is it possible that she typed a text--maybe thought she sent it, and then typed the location where she wanted to go? Doesn't GPS already know where you are? In her condition, she was no doubt having problems hitting the right keys. (re: Main St., when she was on Preston & 4th & Wertland when she was downtown)

Evie, you just typed 4th and Wertland when I believe you meant 14th and Wertland which made me wonder. Does Wertland change names at any point? Might Hannah have meant to text she was at 4th and "new name of Wertland" and was lost? I know of many areas where the names of the streets change and wonder if Wertland might do the same?

 

[ILOKAL]

There are just too many mistakes made by LE to put blind faith in their actions. They are accountable to the public, and I don't think it's ridiculous at all to have as much information released as possible. Cover ups happen all the time, and at some point you start to question...why? Is it legitimate, or do they just not know what they're doing and don't want that fact to become public knowledge?

IMO, there is no time whatsoever that the public's right to know should take precedence over closely held information needed to locate a missing person or is or may become necessary for the filing of charges, and LE, et al alone is charged with the responsibility of making those determinations.

 

[Cymbaline]

HG could have been using siri and speaking her location instead of typing it. Perhaps siri misunderstood what she was saying because she was drunk and she has an english accent.

Evie, you just typed 4th and Wertland when I believe you meant 14th and Wertland which made me wonder. Does Wertland change names at any point? Might Hannah have meant to text she was at 4th and "new name of Wertland" and was lost? I know of many areas where the names of the streets change and wonder if Wertland might do the same?

 

[ILOKAL]

HG could have been using siri and speaking her location instead of typing it. Perhaps siri misunderstood what she was saying because she was drunk and she has an english accent.

I think that might be possible for Siri to misunderstand 4th for 14th but I'm trying to find out if Wertland changes to a different name which Hannah might not have been aware. Also, Hannah still had a British accent after 13 years in the US? I didn't know that.