Hannah's Journey on 09/13

[MJPeony]

What is sketchy about that area? I've seen a couple people mention that Grady Ave. is sketchy I think they called it "shady grady."

It's a relatively low-income area of town abutting (and running into) the University grounds. That area of Grady is next to the hospital area, abuts the Corner (UVa "downtown"), and next to an area that is primarily made up of undergraduate students in off-campus housing. So it's this strange juxtaposition that suddenly occurs. With the exception of this part of Grady, that area is primarily apartment buildings made up entirely of UVa students, private homes that have historically been rented out for years to students living as roommates, and corner shops/restaurants. There are also a few frat/sorority houses nearby.

But then all of a sudden you find yourself in a local, lower-income neighborhood of houses that are not generally not well-kept, and there is a good deal of crime. We're not talking the projects- but just an area that fits the word "sketchy" pretty well.

I think what people most notice about this part of Grady is that it just so quickly (like w/in one or two blocks) goes from a seemingly insulated college stomping grounds area to a completely separate community that is not a place you'd want to loiter.

 

[Skigirl]

I read somewhere that WG went in to the police station before he was cleared as a POI. This occurred after the videos were made public. I would think that LE would have reviewed the video with WG in great detail. WG would have noticed JLM in the video immediately! IMO, WG identified LJM as the guy who put his arm around Hannah and walked off with her. LE may not have wanted to reveal LJM's identity before they had a chance to speak to him and obtain the warrant for his vehicle.

WG went to the police station the night the videos were made public, just before they were released and very shortly before the press conference. We had already been told they would be released and some information was already leaking out about them (including misinformation that she was seen with a woman), but the night they were released, Longo said that the gentleman following her in the video had come voluntarily to the station that evening.

 

[Skigirl]

What does everyone think happened to Hannah?

I think that she got lost, not even knowing she was going the wrong way, probably texting and using her cell phone the whole time on things other than GPS because she thought she knew her way. Found herself in the mall area which probably flustered her as she was so turned around. Didn't help that she had been drinking. Low phone battery by then, that dies out. It's been a long day. Happens all of the time with young people--always having low and dead batteries when needing use of the phone. No money or ID since she was figuring on staying right in her area and not needing either. Looking for familiar faces, hoping for a lift back. JM runs into her, and asks her in a nice way, what is wrong? Offers her a ride, shows her his UVAMC id probably on a lanyard. Says, let's get a quick beer before we head out, which she probably welcomed as she would be thirsty by then. Sneaks her through a side door to an off area of Tempo or maybe she did go in, or maybe just waited right outside. Spikes the drink with something that he carries around just for that purpose She gets woozier right on schedule and needs help to the car, something Abby at Tempo witnessed and stated. He pitches her phone into some storm sewer or other water source which would kill any signal just like that or maybe even in the trash--don't know if one can find a phone with a dead battery if it's pitched like that. She'd be no trouble to help into his car, parked right near by. Dogs traced her scent to Market St, where it then ended, and I think that was where JM was parked.

No problem that time of the night to shoot right to where he went. Knowing the area, knowing the woods, he knows, as a lot of young people tend to know what properties are abandoned in the sense that one can go there to smoke some pot, hang out, do whatever without LE finding you and the neighbors are far enough away, driveway long enough that no one likely to notice in the wee hours. Took her there, raped and killed her. Pitched her body into the ditch. Was proably home by early morning. Could have pitched his clothes and whatever he took of hers in any random trashcan. By the time LE was searching, any and alll of that would have been in the landfills. Hopefully, he did not pitch everything and some forensic evidence is found, some critical item, but who knows.

I hope that she was so drugged, and was not aware of what happened to her. That would have been ever so merciful.

I don't think he thought there would be such a big deal made by LE, MSM and the community. He certainly did not count on the scrutiny he got when he was IDed from the surveillance tapes. It didn't take LE long to place him as the last person to have been with her. He correctly surmised that that did not mean squat in terms of booking him, pressing charges, and they could not force him to answer any questions. But they could and did search/seize his car and search the apartement which I think was a rude shock to him. I truly think the way he looked at it was "so I picked up a girl that night, bought her a drink and left the area with her. So what? I have no idea what happened to her when we went our separate ways.

And it would be up to the DA to prove that he, JM, killed her.

Most of this rings true to me.

I think something strange was going on with her even before she left The Corner area that seems like more than just drunkenness or pot or cocaine to me -- almost like she was in a fugue state. I do think she was totally lost and confused. LSD or other hallucinogens would probably have made her more social and also probably too afraid to be in some of the areas she had to pass through. Pot would probably have made her too lazy and paranoid. Cocaine, I would think, would have made her more social. I've never heard of ecstasy causing the type of confusion she seemed to be experiencing. Roofies would have made her woozy.

I've now heard a couple things about what was said at McGrady's -- first that she tried to gain admittance (press conference) and then that she said, "I'm fine, I'm just walking," (a later source, cannot remember which). The latter quote, if accurate (if anyone has a link that would be so appreciated) is downright weird given what we see of her on the McGrady's video and what we know of her intent that evening, which was clearly to be out having fun at parties and hanging out with friends.

I find her long walkabout to be very, very weird; especially that she ended up walking near the gas station in what looks like the most pedestrian-unfriendly area imaginable. None of the theories that have been floated really do it for me. I do not believe a sorority sent her that way. I do not believe she had a secret date or crush or was looking for anyone (or at least not anyone she expected to be at the Mall -- maybe she was looking for people she knew because she thought she was getting near where she would normally find people she knew near the Corner). I don't think she intended to spend a good part of a prime party night wandering around alone. I think something was going on in her mind and I haven't heard anything that rings true to me about what that was.

Given that the outcome is what it is, I hope she was too intoxicated/drugged to know what was happening after leaving Tempo, and that she did not suffer.

 

[klily444]

WG went to the police station the night the videos were made public, just before they were released and very shortly before the press conference. We had already been told they would be released and some information was already leaking out about them (including misinformation that she was seen with a woman), but the night they were released, Longo said that the gentleman following her in the video had come voluntarily to the station that evening.

Yes, and to add to that, WG had called in two days prior but no one had returned his call, so he simply walked into the police station (seems to be the thing to do out there, lol)

 

[klily444]

Most of this rings true to me.

I think something strange was going on with her even before she left The Corner area that seems like more than just drunkenness or pot or cocaine to me -- almost like she was in a fugue state. I do think she was totally lost and confused. LSD or other hallucinogens would probably have made her more social and also probably too afraid to be in some of the areas she had to pass through. Pot would probably have made her too lazy and paranoid. Cocaine, I would think, would have made her more social. I've never heard of ecstasy causing the type of confusion she seemed to be experiencing. Roofies would have made her woozy.

I've now heard a couple things about what was said at McGrady's -- first that she tried to gain admittance (press conference) and then that she said, "I'm fine, I'm just walking," (a later source, cannot remember which). The latter quote, if accurate (if anyone has a link that would be so appreciated) is downright weird given what we see of her on the McGrady's video and what we know of her intent that evening, which was clearly to be out having fun at parties and hanging out with friends.

I find her long walkabout to be very, very weird; especially that she ended up walking near the gas station in what looks like the most pedestrian-unfriendly area imaginable. None of the theories that have been floated really do it for me. I do not believe a sorority sent her that way. I do not believe she had a secret date or crush or was looking for anyone (or at least not anyone she expected to be at the Mall -- maybe she was looking for people she knew because she thought she was getting near where she would normally find people she knew near the Corner). I don't think she intended to spend a good part of a prime party night wandering around alone. I think something was going on in her mind and I haven't heard anything that rings true to me about what that was.

Given that the outcome is what it is, I hope she was too intoxicated/drugged to know what was happening after leaving Tempo, and that she did not suffer.

Here ya go:
http://www.usanews.net/local/new-le...us-disappearance-of-hannah-graham-h35275.html

"Graham, 18, surfaced on security cameras at around 12:45 a.m. on Sept. 13, wandering in a shadowy no-man's land of gas stations and car dealerships a mile from campus. Happening upon McGrady's Irish Pub, she stopped at the entrance. A bouncer sensed Graham might be lost and asked if he could help, McGrady's general manager Laura Harris told USA TODAY. "She said, 'I'm OK, I'm just walking.'"

 

[jamicat]

Most of this rings true to me.

I think something strange was going on with her even before she left The Corner area that seems like more than just drunkenness or pot or cocaine to me -- almost like she was in a fugue state. I do think she was totally lost and confused. LSD or other hallucinogens would probably have made her more social and also probably too afraid to be in some of the areas she had to pass through. Pot would probably have made her too lazy and paranoid. Cocaine, I would think, would have made her more social. I've never heard of ecstasy causing the type of confusion she seemed to be experiencing. Roofies would have made her woozy.
.

Edited out all but one Paragraph by me.

I like the way you put that " fugue state". I get the feeling she was walking and texting or walking and doing whatever with her cell phone, using up relatively low battery. Not really paying attention where she was going. But plain old alcohol could do that. I've noted several times to my kids that their attention to their phones puts them "out of it". We've had problems in our area where high school kids walking through areas while focused on their smart phones, get relieved of them by muggers waiting for just that. Every year a couple fo kids get so mugged.

From what I've read about "roofies", they are fast acting and more debilitating than what she was exhibiting when she started her journey. I am suspicious about a "roofie" added to a drink that JM might have given her when he bought the 2 at Tempo. The way Abby described her at around 1:45 AM is more consistent with that drug, But of course, anything is possible at those parties. Doubt anyone will step forward who gave her anything. There is no shortage of students admitting that the alcohol was flowing freely at those parties that Hannah attended.

 

[Skigirl]

Yes, and to add to that, WG had called in two days prior but no one had returned his call, so he simply walked into the police station (seems to be the thing to do out there, lol)

I bet Longo isn't too terribly pleased that two of the biggest breaks in the case weren't followed up more quickly. I mean, toward the end of the five weeks, they had thousands, a lot of which were probably pretty unhelpful things like, "my gut says you should look in all the bodies of water in the state," so it's a little more understandable, but at the beginning they had just a few hundred and "I saw that girl and she was so distressed that I decided to follow her until she subsequently met up with another guy, with whom she walked away," seems pretty important on the face of it! I hope he at least had said something much vaguer, like, "I think I may have information," but given that he took it on himself to show up at the station, I would guess he was pretty clear and specific when he called the tip line and thought his information was important (and also probably thought he'd be a suspect, poor guy).

 

[Maxwell Smart]

If you watch the long version of the McGrady's pub video it looks to me that she was looking for someone, or a group of people at a bar. She approaches McGrady's and peers in the window for 5 - 10 seconds, then she walks past the pub, stumbles off the sidewalk, and goes out of the picture. She then returns to McGrady's about a minute or so later, and this is when she approaches the bouncer. She then walks back in the direction that she originally came from - toward the gas station where she is spotted moments later.

I went to UVA, and someone else from UVA said this earlier, but this area as a second year student would be pretty unfamiliar. My hunch is that she was looking for a bar that she maybe had never been to. This is why she was peering in the windows at McGradys. And maybe also why she kept going down a street that she didn't know very well. If she was looking for a house party, she might have been more familiar with where she was going, since the residential areas are more well-traveled by students. If this theory is correct and she was indeed searching for a bar, it could also explain why she so readily goes with JM. The Downtown Mall has lots of bars (again, probably not ones that are familiar to second year students), but if she said to JM that she was looking for a bar where her friends were, he could've easily said he'd take her to one (or several) of them since he knew the downtown mall bar scene so well.

As for her state -- I think she was just heavily intoxicated. IMO heavy drinking can explain that kind of "walkabout", as I've done it many times myself. Especially in college.

 

[klily444]

I bet Longo isn't too terribly pleased that two of the biggest breaks in the case weren't followed up more quickly. I mean, toward the end of the five weeks, they had thousands, a lot of which were probably pretty unhelpful things like, "my gut says you should look in all the bodies of water in the state," so it's a little more understandable, but at the beginning they had just a few hundred and "I saw that girl and she was so distressed that I decided to follow her until she subsequently met up with another guy, with whom she walked away," seems pretty important on the face of it! I hope he at least had said something much vaguer, like, "I think I may have information," but given that he took it on himself to show up at the station, I would guess he was pretty clear and specific when he called the tip line and thought his information was important (and also probably thought he'd be a suspect, poor guy).

Exactly this...and I also believe that they had SOME of the surveillance tape earlier than we were aware. Remember in the very beginning it was reported that Hannah was sighted at the downtown mall walking with another female? It's my opinion that they reviewed the first part of the footage they received, saw someone with long hair walking next to her (JM's), no woman came forward saying she was with Hannah, so the long haired female morphed into "a reflection" and FINALLY, they talk to WG.

In hindsight, many posters here thought JM was a PREGNANT WOMAN on the video. It's comical now, but it's really not. We needed WGs account that she in fact was walking with a man.

 

[Skigirl]

If you watch the long version of the McGrady's pub video it looks to me that she was looking for someone, or a group of people at a bar. She approaches McGrady's and peers in the window for 5 - 10 seconds, then she walks past the pub, stumbles off the sidewalk, and goes out of the picture. She then returns to McGrady's about a minute or so later, and this is when she approaches the bouncer. She then walks back in the direction that she originally came from - toward the gas station where she is spotted moments later.

I went to UVA, and someone else from UVA said this earlier, but this area as a second year student would be pretty unfamiliar. My hunch is that she was looking for a bar that she maybe had never been to. This is why she was peering in the windows at McGradys. And maybe also why she kept going down a street that she didn't know very well. If she was looking for a house party, she might have been more familiar with where she was going, since the residential areas are more well-traveled by students. If this theory is correct and she was indeed searching for a bar, it could also explain why she so readily goes with JM. The Downtown Mall has lots of bars (again, probably not ones that are familiar to second year students), but if she said to JM that she was looking for a bar where her friends were, he could've easily said he'd take her to one (or several) of them since he knew the downtown mall bar scene so well.

As for her state -- I think she was just heavily intoxicated. IMO heavy drinking can explain that kind of "walkabout", as I've done it many times myself. Especially in college.

What you said made total sense (from what I've heard, it sounds like the set-up is very similar to my college town, with students in the first couple years clustering in the little business district on one side of campus and not getting familiar with the other side of campus/real downtown area until their later years), but just a couple things. McGrady's was a bar HG was familiar with because that's where the ski team had parties (and she as on the team). She may have been peering in to see if she knew someone, but she wasn't peering in because she was looking for a bar she'd never been to.

The other thing is that it is that I have lived in college towns pretty much my entire adult life and it is VERY rare, in my experience, for a woman (young or old) to do the whole 'walkabout' thing on purpose. Women are all too well aware of the dangers of being alone at night and generally only do it if they really, really want to get someplace and don't have a choice, or get separated from their group of friends. Even drunk most women won't choose it if they have an alternative. Which makes her whole, "I'm just walking" comment seem really weird to me. On the other hand, "I'm just walking," could mean, "oh no, sir/m'am, pay me no mind, I'm just walking, not looking for a bouncer I know or trying to sneak in your back door."

 

[mainemom]

Was he being a good Samaritan or just some creepy middle aged guy? Who knows. He acted like he stopped to send a text because it would look weird if he just stopped and stood there doing nothing.

This is probably COMPLETELY off base, but I'll throw it out there.

Early on, there were speculations here about creepy WG. That maybe he was texting JM and they were in cahoots. That didn't seem very likely then, nor does it now, but I did have this thought: RAT is also a creepy white guy. There is also speculation that JM is involved in that case.

What if... JM has some sort of need for a father-figure, and seeks out creepy older guys who somehow share his thing with young women to some extent. Whether its a gross hey-hey-buddy lets watch some tittie films kind of thing, or a hang-rape thing or something worse.

I know that's nuts. But just throwing it out there. I've always felt that WG had bad intentions one way or the other. At the very least he was just lecherous and yucky. Hopefully that's all.

 

[jamicat]

If you watch the long version of the McGrady's pub video it looks to me that she was looking for someone, or a group of people at a bar. She approaches McGrady's and peers in the window for 5 - 10 seconds, then she walks past the pub, stumbles off the sidewalk, and goes out of the picture. She then returns to McGrady's about a minute or so later, and this is when she approaches the bouncer. She then walks back in the direction that she originally came from - toward the gas station where she is spotted moments later.

I went to UVA, and someone else from UVA said this earlier, but this area as a second year student would be pretty unfamiliar. My hunch is that she was looking for a bar that she maybe had never been to. This is why she was peering in the windows at McGradys. And maybe also why she kept going down a street that she didn't know very well. If she was looking for a house party, she might have been more familiar with where she was going, since the residential areas are more well-traveled by students. If this theory is correct and she was indeed searching for a bar, it could also explain why she so readily goes with JM. The Downtown Mall has lots of bars (again, probably not ones that are familiar to second year students), but if she said to JM that she was looking for a bar where her friends were, he could've easily said he'd take her to one (or several) of them since he knew the downtown mall bar scene so well.

As for her state -- I think she was just heavily intoxicated. IMO heavy drinking can explain that kind of "walkabout", as I've done it many times myself. Especially in college.

BBM/ That's what I think. She was familiar with the place. It was stated somewhere that her ski club had gone there, and this is a venue listed in UVA tailgating and other visitor guides as a place to go. Of the places in that mall area, it may have been the ones with the best odds of finding fellow students. I think she was hoping to see some familiar faces and maybe get a ride.

 

[jamicat]

This is probably COMPLETELY off base, but I'll throw it out there.

Early on, there were speculations here about creepy WG. That maybe he was texting JM and they were in cahoots. That didn't seem very likely then, nor does it now, but I did have this thought: RAT is also a creepy white guy. There is also speculation that JM is involved in that case.

What if... JM has some sort of need for a father-figure, and seeks out creepy older guys who somehow share his thing with young women to some extent. Whether its a gross hey-hey-buddy lets watch some tittie films kind of thing, or a hang-rape thing or something worse.

I know that's nuts. But just throwing it out there. I've always felt that WG had bad intentions one way or the other. At the very least he was just lecherous and yucky. Hopefully that's all.

My first reaction was also that WG was maybe thinking of picking her up. No proof, just gut reaction. She's a tall attractive girl, dressed to party, probably looking inebriated, especially to season eyes. It's not unusual to get pick up offers in such situations. Fortunately, most of such people are just .. well, creepy, maybe or pushy, lecherous, but not serial rapists (though that may be under reported), but certainly not murderers.

 

[Emaa]

My first reaction was also that WG was maybe thinking of picking her up. No proof, just gut reaction. She's a tall attractive girl, dressed to party, probably looking inebriated, especially to season eyes. It's not unusual to get pick up offers in such situations. Fortunately, most of such people are just .. well, creepy, maybe or pushy, lecherous, but not serial rapists (though that may be under reported), but certainly not murderers.

I don't believe WG's intentions were as altruistic as he claimed, but as you say, I also don't believe he meant harm to her either.

 

[ChasingMoxie]

The police have indicated that the WG was a cooperative witness. I'm tired of anyone that ever tries to help being all but outright accused of being a rapist or murderer - I'm seriously concerned that soon nobody will try to help anymore, everyone will just turn away. And if that happens, can you really blame them? What say we go with what the police have told us about the guy that tried to help Hannah? He helped the police! He's not creepy, he's not a predator, he's just someone who saw something and did something, and you know what? I bet he's KICKING himself now wishing he had known to do more - there's no need for any of us to throw any more stones. JMO.

 

[Maxwell Smart]

The police have indicated that the WG was a cooperative witness. I'm tired of anyone that ever tries to help being all but outright accused of being a rapist or murderer - I'm seriously concerned that soon nobody will try to help anymore, everyone will just turn away. And if that happens, can you really blame them? What say we go with what the police have told us about the guy that tried to help Hannah? He helped the police! He's not creepy, he's not a predator, he's just someone who saw something and did something, and you know what? I bet he's KICKING himself now wishing he had known to do more - there's no need for any of us to throw any more stones. JMO.

Totally agree. The police have spoken to WG, undoubtedly looked into him and his alibi, and moved on. And even if he was stopping so that he could talk to HG that does not automatically make him lecherous, creepy or pushy.

 

[mysterious minds]

Another long shot but going to throw it out there… The Sal's video has been strange to me on several counts already discussed here but it's also bothered me how JM is walking and doesn't even seem to turn his head her direction yet somehow seconds later is following her. Did he "eye" her walking towards him before the area that the video catches? He doesn't miss a beat.
And then it just dawned on me that possibly he somehow picked up on white guy's actions (although it's not apparent anywhere on video) and positioned himself as "protecting" HG from the WG. Maybe that's how he was able to get his arm around her so fast. "Hey, I just noticed this guy watching you. Stick with me." And then it would seem even more convincing considering WG DOES keep following them. Maybe JM looked like a real saint at that moment and she started to let her guard down with him. He buys her drink, promises to get her home safe, etc. ESPECIALLY if her phone battery was dying/dead.
This could lead to WG going to police station because he knows that he was busted following her and wanted to get his story to them before JM or someone else could.

 

[CanSleuth]

Another long shot but going to throw it out there… The Sal's video has been strange to me on several counts already discussed here but it's also bothered me how JM is walking and doesn't even seem to turn his head her direction yet somehow seconds later is following her. Did he "eye" her walking towards him before the area that the video catches? He doesn't miss a beat.
And then it just dawned on me that possibly he somehow picked up on white guy's actions (although it's not apparent anywhere on video) and positioned himself as "protecting" HG from the WG. Maybe that's how he was able to get his arm around her so fast. "Hey, I just noticed this guy watching you. Stick with me." And then it would seem even more convincing considering WG DOES keep following them. Maybe JM looked like a real saint at that moment and she started to let her guard down with him. He buys her drink, promises to get her home safe, etc. ESPECIALLY if her phone battery was dying/dead.
This could lead to WG going to police station because he knows that he was busted following her and wanted to get his story to them before JM or someone else could.

I tend to agree with your theory. Just wanted to add that perhaps HG noticed or sensed WG following her (she was alert enough to pick up her pace when in the unsafe area near the gas station, thus showing an awareness for her safety), so willingly allowed JM to walk beside her. She may have even asked him to pretend he was her friend and make it look like they knew each other so WG would back off. Maybe JM suggested to HG that they go into a bar for a drink to allow WG to clear the area, thus explaining why somebody like HG would agree to hang out with JM. Didn't MH try to get strangers at the Metallica concert to pretend they were together in order to sneak back into JPJ arena? Anyway, I think HG may have viewed JM as her 'hero' or 'saviour' in that she was lost, tired, alone, drunk, and maybe scared. If JM could convince his friends and family that he was a 'giant teddy bear', then I don't think he would have any trouble smooth talking an innocent and vulnerable 18 year old girl. Once JM got HG into the bar I suspect he roofied her drink, which pretty much incapacitated her for the rest of the night, hence the sightings of HG leaning on JM as they left aroun 1:45am.
I don't think we will ever know for sure if WG's intentions for HG were innocent or evil. JMO.

 

[mysterious minds]

I can't believe that WG is evil like JM. The odds of both targeting HG are just too far fetched. But he may have just been curious or perverted or just in general no-so-perfect intentions but definitely not JM intentions.

 

[Emaa]

Totally agree. The police have spoken to WG, undoubtedly looked into him and his alibi, and moved on. And even if he was stopping so that he could talk to HG that does not automatically make him lecherous, creepy or pushy.

I agree. But with the caveat that I wouldn't be surprised if at some point police ended up connecting him to this, somehow. And only because after the announcement of the Fairfax rape charges and how completely silent LE has been on this case, I don't think anything would surprise me now.