Hannah's Journey on 09/13

[ThinkHard]

I would just like to add to others sentiments:

I don't think exploring all the angles is "victim blaming".

I don't think discussing whether a college student MAY or MAY NOT have any contact with drugs...is hardly the same thing as saying she DID.

And I would like to say who cares if she did? Does it really matter? Does it make her less of a person? Less of an athlete? Less of a student? Absolutely NOT! Hannah Graham would have graduate from UVA and gone on to do amazing things!!!....even if she had dabbled in college.

It has absolutely NO baring on WHO she was or how IMPORTANT she was.

 

[zapped]

Some of the most successful people on the planet are "drug users". Anybody can be a drug user. Not saying she was or wasn't.

You and I obviously define success very differently.

 

[ThinkHard]

I'm going to put my end of the discussion to rest after this post b/c I don't think it's going anywhere as it is clearly a sensitive topic. And I understand that. I just want to say (and I'll just speak for myself) that I have zero judgement if I happen to entertain a possibility- albeit remote- that there may be something to do with drugs in the JM meet-up. I don't think it's likely, but I am just trying, like most of us, to make some sense out of how this horrible thing happened that night. It's merely a brainstorm, like many things here, and nothing more.

whonos, as for wanting some info on whether she partied, it's pretty clear from her f/b and twitter that she did. At least to some degree, and people will make of that what they will based on personal reference. And I want to point out that, as a former UVa undergrad, the school has a reputation for studying hard and partying hard. Many people I knew were excellent students, Jeff scholars, Lawn residents, etc and were serious partiers. It would be shocking to many people I'm sure, but it's true. Not saying HG was. Just giving insight into the culture.

So, I'm done now with my thoughts on this topic. Moving on over here.

Well said!

 

[ThinkHard]

What I'm surprised at actually, are people making allegations of drug use by a victim without a shred of supporting evidence....on a victim friendly forum.

If I find it offensive how do you think one of HG's family members would feel upon viewing this?

I think HG parent's would be amazed at how many people care and are affected by their daughters life and unfortunate death. And be impressed that we all put so much of our personal time into studying streets, and photos, and videos, and records, and analyzing the info and exploring EVERY angle, as to not miss something. All for a girl we have never met! That's what I think they would notice.

I haven't seen a single person make an allegation that HG used drugs. What I have seen is people trying to make sense of that night, no stone unturned.

 

[SteveP]

I have a really hard time believing HG would have believed JM was an anesthesiologist! You really think he could have pulled off pretending he was doctor!?! I don't see that as likely, I just don't see JM convincing anyone he went through and graduated from medical school.

As far as athletics, he might have been awarded athlete of the year in HS, but he never played on a winning team. With only 8 wins in 3 years.

I think he did "buddy" up to some college coeds, and perhaps "get them the hook up". But if he was giving girls drugs...I'd be more willing to bet it was for free...like he did with the cab rides.

And I bet what he got out of it was attention from girls who wouldn't otherwise give him the time of day.

I'm not convinced this is how he knew Hannah though, if he did. I'm still on the fence if she had encountered him before that night or not.

I definitely don't think he could keep up the ruse for long, and certainly not if they had a deep conversation, but just in an introductory type chit chat, yeah, I think he may be enough of a BSer, and may know enough medical terms that he might throw that out there...and if not a doctor, at least something more skilled than a patient transporter basically. JMO

 

[Charlie Chan]

What I'm surprised at actually, are people making allegations of drug use by a victim without a shred of supporting evidence....on a victim friendly forum.

If I find it offensive how do you think one of HG's family members would feel upon viewing this?

Respectfully, nowhere on this forum have I read any allegation of drug use by Hannah. As the Websleuth name implies, we "sleuth out" possible scenarios, and to ignore drugs as a factor in this case would be irresponsible. The who/what/why/where of Hannah's journey simply begs for that angle to be explored. <modsnip> Just can't overlook this angle if we are truly sleuthing this case. Sorry.

 

[Charlie Chan]

Did you go to UVA or Va Tech? Those two colleges are heavily recruited by the CIA and FBI because the students and families that go there are known for having more conservative values than other colleges such as Harvard and UCLA.

Do you have a link for this comment, because I would buy that for VT but NOT for UVa. Sorry. (I have no idea about the family values , but I am very familiar with the student bodies of both universities). But I think that this is a bit OT. Because we are talking about one victim....not a student body.

 

[zapped]

Respectfully, nowhere on this forum have I read any allegation of drug use by Hannah. As the Websleuth name implies, we "sleuth out" possible scenarios, and to ignore drugs as a factor in this case would be irresponsible. The who/what/why/where of Hannah's journey simply begs for that angle to be explored. <modsnip>Sorry.

Where to start?

Ive been following this case from the very beginning and while I havent read every single post in every single thread in regards to HG, its damn close.

Im also fully aware of what we do here at Web Sleuths.You might want to take a look at my join date and post count before assuming I dont understand how it works and am not a member of the community here.

Allegations, insinuations, suggestions, they all pretty much amount to the same thing in this case without proof and are dangerously close to victim blaming IMO.

HG paid for her mistakes (if she made any at all) with her life.

And she isnt the one to blame or shame here anyway.

JLM is.

 

[zapped]

Do you have a link for this comment, because I would buy that for VT but NOT for UVa. Sorry. (I have no idea about the family values , but I am very familiar with the student bodies of both universities). But I think that this is a bit OT. Because we are talking about one victim....not a student body.

Comment deleted.

Believe it .......or not...I dont really care..... beyond the fact that my integrity is now suddenly being questioned.

Ive heard for years that the FBI and CIA recruits heavily from both of those schools for the reasons I outlined above.Not to mention that Quantico is fairly close by and students who typically go to these schools come from affluent and usually well established families.

 

[Conductor71]

I agree that the drug angle is a bit played out. I think one of the key things we have to go on is that HG did seem familiar with JM and was very at ease with his presence; enough so that witnesses did not sense she was under duress. Also notably, JM was not perceived as at all aggressive, but seemed rather supportive. I am thinking that they both may have a common background that has been under explored: they had a shared trait in being helpful to others and both volunteered in their leisure time. JM to assist coaching football at covenant school and HG most recently in rebuilding homes in Tusclaloosa, AL on a spring break trip working with Habitat for Humanity. We know that JM is religious and active in his church. We don't know if HG was religious in any way. I am just tossing out there that maybe they knew one another through some sort of volunteer experiences or church/religious connections?

 

[CvilleMother]

...Im telling you, something's not right with that town!

The more I dig...the smellier it gets!

Albemarle police are a different force than CPD. ACPD has definitely had a number of scandals over the past 25 years. CPD has been cleaner.

Charlottsville has had a couple of jury cases that came back in surprising ways--typically with the UVA student on trial getting off when the court of public opinion thought otherwise.

 

[Fancynancy]

I definitely don't think he could keep up the ruse for long, and certainly not if they had a deep conversation, but just in an introductory type chit chat, yeah, I think he may be enough of a BSer, and may know enough medical terms that he might throw that out there...and if not a doctor, at least something more skilled than a patient transporter basically. JMO

JLM doesn't appear well-spoken to me. What am I missing??

 

[SteveP]

JLM doesn't appear well-spoken to me. What am I missing??

Okay, I will concede that he doesn't to me either, but I don't think we can assign our judgements and value systems to others. I am sure he had a line that maybe some found harmlessly charming.

 

[Bonacker]

So many news sources have stated it in many different formats. The patch in your link has that as the headline but in the body uses that phrase to link to an LE report "Police report that her last text at 1:20 a.m. Saturday to a friend was &#8220;I&#8217;m lost, come find me,&#8221; according to The Roanoke Times. "

However the link to Roanoke times states it as ;
"That&#8217;s when she sent a text message to a friend saying she was lost walking home from a party near 14th and Wertland."

http://www.roanoke.com/news/virgini...cle_fa7df5eb-0f59-5ff5-95ad-68737fa35a21.html
CBS6 reports it as a quote saying;

"Search teams originally combed through other parts of Charlottesville on Monday, after they read a text Graham sent at 1:20 a.m., which stated that she was lost near 14th and Wertland Streets.


Another : "Her last text said she was lost near Wertland Street"
http://www.bustle.com/articles/40155-uva-student-hannah-graham-18-has-been-missing-since-saturday


So the reference to the text message at 1:20 is never reported as an exact quote, so to make sense of it we are left speculating.


:cow:

I find this round-up very helpful.

Because it seems to me very possible that she simply texted to her friend some version of "I'm lost, come find me," or "I'm lost, come get me," or just "I'm lost" --- and that the whole "14th and Wertland" thing wasn't even IN that final text at all.[/I]

See what I mean? The tidbit that HG became lost after leaving a party near 14th and Wertland could have come from HG's friend/s and LE, and not from that final text at all.

I now suspect taht the two known facts (that she asked for help -- "I'm lost" --- and that she'd left a party at 14th and Wertland) were mushed up together accidentally. That the reporting drifted/migrated as it went from one media outlet to another.

That would explain a LOT. In this scenario, we don't have to try to understand how she could be so confused as to think she was still near 14th and Wertland, and we could also rule out JM texting it as some sort of trick or lure. Etc.

 

[FindHG]

Okay, I will concede that he doesn't to me either, but I don't think we can assign our judgements and value systems to others. I am sure he had a line that maybe some found harmlessly charming.

Do you recall when Judge Dennis Smith asked him if he was employed in the long version of the court hearing for which there are links up thread? He says "Naaaoooo" with some expression, the most in all the words he's uttered so far. I think he's articulate enough but is protection himself with how little he says and the way he says it. The dumb act isn't washing with me.

 

[Conductor71]

What I'm surprised at actually, are people making allegations of drug use by a victim without a shred of supporting evidence....on a victim friendly forum.

If I find it offensive how do you think one of HG's family members would feel upon viewing this?

I respect your viewpoint but feel that your accusations are a bit misguided. There seems to be this knee jerk reaction at anything that may; however realistic, see a victim as a real person who embraced life as somehow debasing. She was not a soulless Stepford student concerned only with academic achievement. She had hopes, dreams, crushes, and yes flaws. We are not saying she is responsible for what happened that night nor maligning her moral character. We only questioned drug use in the context of helping to fill LE's inadequate explanation of events.

As for taking offense, why aren't we questioning the institutions that take no responsibility in any of this; there is a culture of complicity that no one is talking about. Instead of scolding commentators in MSM for judging HG's drinking, the police might actually take some issue that underage drinking is a contributing factor in becoming an easy target in a college town. It is clearly against the law, and they simply ignore it?! UVA has the perfect opportunity to do the right thing and address the role party culture plays in creating a campus environment that is increasingly unsafe for young women. In ten years time, not one person found guilty of sexual assault on campus has been disciplined. Women, are in fact, discouraged from pressing charges because they are put under gag order. Hear no evil. Speak no evil. See no evil. If we care about victim's rights, we need to redirect our concerns, IMO. It saddens me to hear Hannah's parents speak of how much she esteemed her school, and how they seem simply to have washed their hands of her. That is far more offensive than anything I have encountered here.

For more info:

http://www.readthehook.com/73686/uva-rebuked-feds-furious-over-rape-case-gag-orders

 

[LI-Mom]

I'm confused by comments, and I've seen a few now, regarding students at UVA being considered rich.

UVA takes 70% of students from in state. My daughter is one of the 30% from out of state. We pay 3 to 4 times the tuition that a Virginia resident pays. I have seen students move into the dorms with their belongings in black garbage bags and others in beat up cardboard boxes. So I'm confused as to why it is assumed that everyone that goes there is rich.

UVA is a state school. It's not private, and it's not Ivy League. Can someone shed some light on this for me? And explain to me what any student's parents income has to do with Hannah.

 

[MJPeony]

Let's go for a minute with the theory that Hannah was lost, totally turned around, confused, tired, etc. (and that she was not meeting someone, etc.) --

What do we think is then going through her head when we see her in front of Sal's and Tuel's? Is she just continuing to walk until she finds her way back to her apartment/friends up near Wertland? Does she think she is actually going in the right direction now? (she's very briskly walking, as opposed to circling McGrady's for example).

There were plenty of people walking there on the mall- why did she not stop and ask someone for help getting to where she was going? She also passed by several bars/nightclubs from the time she turned onto the mall and the time she ran into JM (somewhere between Sal's and Tuel's). She could have easily asked for safe help from a bouncer as opposed to approaching a stranger if she didn't feel comfortable with that.

Obviously we can't get inside her head. I'm just trying to understand why, if she was as lost and totally beside herself with directions in order to end up at the DM as is a working theory, she didn't take the ample opportunity presented there on the DM to get turned back the right way. OR, at the very least, stop walking. And sit down and wait for her friends in one place- such as in front of an open bar that she walked by. One of the first things I learned as a kid from my parents was that if I got lost, not to keep walking around but to stay put :thinking:

 

[MJPeony]

I'm confused by comments, and I've seen a few now, regarding students at UVA being considered rich.

UVA takes 70% of students from in state. My daughter is one of the 30% from out of state. We pay 3 to 4 times the tuition that a Virginia resident pays. I have seen students move into the dorms with their belongings in black garbage bags and others in beat up cardboard boxes. So I'm confused as to why it is assumed that everyone that goes there is rich.

UVA is a state school. It's not private, and it's not Ivy League. Can someone shed some light on this for me? And explain to me what any student's parents income has to do with Hannah.

I hear what you're saying and you have good points about the state school, % breakdown of in-state residents, etc. UVa this past year took 63.1% in-state. http://avillage.web.virginia.edu/iaas/instreports/studat/hist/admission/first_by_residency.htm

So yes, it's a great bargain for in-state students. I think what many people may be referring to when they talk about a lot of rich kids going there, is that it is considered a prestigious school in Virginia (and in that general East Coast area of the US), so many wealthy VA residents will end up sending their kids there just based on the good status of the school. (and...it's also easier to get into than Ivy's!) So you end up, regarding that 63%, with a state school population that is probably going to be of a higher wealth average than many state schools b/c of the academic reputation of UVa. I believe more wealthy people would be willing to let their kids attend a state school if it's got a very good reputation. Not sure if I made any sense there. I don't have a link to support average student family wealth across state schools though. So all of this is JMO based on thinking about your question and my personal experience for whatever that is worth.

And... I have absolutely no idea why any of this would matter as it pertains to HG, so I can't help with that one!

 

[LI-Mom]

As for taking offense, why aren't we questioning the institutions that take no responsibility in any of this; there is a culture of complicity that no one is talking about. Instead of scolding commentators in MSM for judging HG's drinking, the police might actually take some issue that underage drinking is a contributing factor in becoming an easy target in a college town. It is clearly against the law, and they simply ignore it?! UVA has the perfect opportunity to do the right thing and address the role party culture plays in creating a campus environment that is increasingly unsafe for young women. In ten years time, not one person found guilty of sexual assault on campus has been disciplined. Women, are in fact, discouraged from pressing charges because they are put under gag order. Hear no evil. Speak no evil. See no evil. If we care about victim's rights, we need to redirect our concerns, IMO. It saddens me to hear Hannah's parents speak of how much she esteemed her school, and how they seem simply to have washed their hands of her. That is far more offensive than anything I have encountered here.

For more info:

http://www.readthehook.com/73686/uva-rebuked-feds-furious-over-rape-case-gag-orders

I attended UVA orientation with my daughter. The parents and students are lectured about under age drinking. Unfortunately, these kids are adults and if they drink off campus the school has no authority over them. The students were warned that if they were caught by local LE drinking off campus the school could not come to their aid. I don't know any stats on LE cracking down on parties off campus, but that's on LE not the college. What more can any school do? Expel adult students for illegal drinking off campus? Colleges would be empty.

As for the rape article, let's not miss this "When Charlottesville prosecutors declined to press charges..." Was there no case? Why did prosecutors decline? Is there too close of a relationship between LE, the courts, and UVA? I have warned my daughter to call 911 if she is raped, not campus police. I do think that a rape allegation should get a student expelled, like LU and CNU did with JM. Are alleged rapes handled differently if they happen off campus? Is a college not required to expel a student on an allegation if it did not happen on college property?