Hannah's Journey on 09/13

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I don't understand how some people think she was too smart to not do drugs.....but unwise enough to be fooled by a man "pretending to be a cab driver"....who approach her on foot, and had been drinking!!!

I'm sorry but come on guys.

" . . . . Fooled by a man 'pretending to be a cab driver'"

Do you have a link showing this to be fact? I see it being thrown out there now by several posters as if fact, whereas my collection is that it is nothing more than speculation of something that "might" have occurred. TIA
 
" . . . . Fooled by a man 'pretending to be a cab driver'"

Do you have a link showing this to be fact? I see it being thrown out there now by several posters as if fact, whereas my collection is that it is nothing more than speculation of something that "might" have occurred. TIA

I think that this is just a theory based on a post from Ollie yesterday (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ah-s-Journey-on-09-13&p=11161873#post11161873) who was just speculating their own idea about a possible theory. I don't think anyone is saying it's backed up by link. JMO.
 
You're right I am speculating based on some facts. JM drove a yellow cab in C'ville for years,JM had a taxi lisence , JM bought a taxi and LE now have it ;JM registered a business using an address near where HG was found. Someone in one of the thousands of threads about JM said he even made up business cards. So please disregard my taking the issue to a' what if' someone had one of his cards called JM about picking HG up downtown.Afterall what does anyone really know why she got in his car?And I will add no one ever said' Hannah used drugs',just speculation from some inquiring minds after seeing her staggering out of Tempo.
 
You're right I am speculating based on some facts. JM drove a yellow cab in C'ville for years,JM had a taxi lisence , JM bought a taxi and LE now have it ;JM registered a business using an address near where HG was found. Someone in one of the thousands of threads about JM said he even made up business cards. So please disregard my taking the issue to a' what if' someone had one of his cards called JM about picking HG up downtown.Afterall what does anyone really know why she got in his car?And I will add no one ever said' Hannah used drugs',just speculation from some inquiring minds after seeing her staggering out of Tempo.

I think it's an interesting hypothesis actually, and certainly possible. Yes, of course- none of us can know most of this. We're just brainstorming based on what we do know as best we can, so no harm in offering theories IMO... it's what we do here!
 
You're right I am speculating based on some facts. JM drove a yellow cab in C'ville for years,JM had a taxi lisence , JM bought a taxi and LE now have it ;JM registered a business using an address near where HG was found. Someone in one of the thousands of threads about JM said he even made up business cards. So please disregard my taking the issue to a' what if' someone had one of his cards called JM about picking HG up downtown.Afterall what does anyone really know why she got in his car?And I will add no one ever said' Hannah used drugs',just speculation from some inquiring minds after seeing her staggering out of Tempo.

What business did JM have?
 
Yes, Thank you!!!


I'm guessing that Cymbaline posted this because the Mellow Mushroom IS ONLY ONE MILE FROM TEMPO! i.e. Hannah was no stranger to this area. Cymbaline, great catch and please correct me if I have misinterpreted your intent.
 
" . . . . Fooled by a man 'pretending to be a cab driver'"

Do you have a link showing this to be fact? I see it being thrown out there now by several posters as if fact, whereas my collection is that it is nothing more than speculation of something that "might" have occurred. TIA

No I do not have a link, and i have not seen one.

Other people feel that perhaps the way JM approach Hannah was by saying he was cab driver.

I do not believe this one bit, because I don't think Hannah Graham would have fallen for a line like that.

JMO
 
I think that this is just a theory based on a post from Ollie yesterday (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ah-s-Journey-on-09-13&p=11161873#post11161873) who was just speculating their own idea about a possible theory. I don't think anyone is saying it's backed up by link. JMO.

I know its just a theory.

But Ollie had said something in his post about her friends calling a cab, and something about having business cards made up...as though it where fact..or at least that's how it read to me...

So I was confused....Ollie can you help clarify? Thanks muchly!
 
You're right I am speculating based on some facts. JM drove a yellow cab in C'ville for years,JM had a taxi lisence , JM bought a taxi and LE now have it ;JM registered a business using an address near where HG was found. Someone in one of the thousands of threads about JM said he even made up business cards. So please disregard my taking the issue to a' what if' someone had one of his cards called JM about picking HG up downtown.Afterall what does anyone really know why she got in his car?And I will add no one ever said' Hannah used drugs',just speculation from some inquiring minds after seeing her staggering out of Tempo.

All the info regarding a taxi driver though...and having a cab, and a permit WAS NOT current..that was years ago. So I'm having trouble I guess seeing how your connecting what he did five years ago...with what he's doing now.

Regarding the registered business...I haven't seen anything about this....can you direct me to where you learned that?
 
I don't think people are saying "stay away from" -- I think people are saying that FIRST AND SECOND YEAR STUDENTS wouldn't necessarily have that as a center of gravity/place they would know well THEIR FIRST AND SECOND YEARS. I went to a school that was similar. I don't know why this is so hard to imagine. JMO.

My only argument was and remains: there are undergrads on the mall. Just depends on the undergrads. I wasn't claiming in any way, shape or form that it was "the big hangout". I'm sure that there were first and second years on the mall when HG was there in Sept., and there are right now. I'm just not understanding why there is the repeated suggestion that it was such an anomaly for HG to be there. She had international connections, she had elevated style/taste from what I can gather from her tweets and what has been said about her, she had the means, she frequented McGrady's with ski club, etc. It just doesn't seem weird at all to me that she was there. Again MOO.

My son attends a private university in the south. He's a senior. The downtown area can be frightening - crime is (and has been) a concern there for over 60 years. When I've walked downtown I have been scared unless I'm walking in a group. However, he has (from the first week of his freshman year) frequented that area because there is an up & coming, "foodie"- style renaissance going on there. Many of his freshman friends frequented the area, girls included. They actually did know it well, and as first years, it didn't stop them from venturing there in addition to the parties around campus. Many did not - because it was thought to be a high crime area. What I'm saying is: it just depends on the undergraduate, it doesn't always depend on the year. That's all I'm saying.

Agree to disagree - no harm no foul.
 
11 minute walk from Tempo to where? Are you talking about the Mellow Mushroom? If you are then it is a 22 minute walk.

I don't think we know to where...I think the point was that she had indeed walked to Tempo before
 
I would like to see those statements from her Twitter account. Are they still available?

Those tweets were discussed in the early days that she was missing. That discussion can be found way back in some of the earliest threads.
 
My only argument was and remains: there are undergrads on the mall. Just depends on the undergrads. I wasn't claiming in any way, shape or form that it was "the big hangout". I'm sure that there were first and second years on the mall when HG was there in Sept., and there are right now. I'm just not understanding why there is the repeated suggestion that it was such an anomaly for HG to be there. She had international connections, she had elevated style/taste from what I can gather from her tweets and what has been said about her, she had the means, she frequented McGrady's with ski club, etc. It just doesn't seem weird at all to me that she was there. Again MOO.

My son attends a private university in the south. He's a senior. The downtown area can be frightening - crime is (and has been) a concern there for over 60 years. When I've walked downtown I have been scared unless I'm walking in a group. However, he has (from the first week of his freshman year) frequented that area because there is an up & coming, "foodie"- style renaissance going on there. Many of his freshman friends frequented the area, girls included. They actually did know it well, and as first years, it didn't stop them from venturing there in addition to the parties around campus. Many did not - because it was thought to be a high crime area. What I'm saying is: it just depends on the undergraduate, it doesn't always depend on the year. That's all I'm saying.

Agree to disagree - no harm no foul.

Yep, we definitely disagree here. Seems weird to me. (unless she was specifically meeting someone, etc.)

But moving on. So, does anyone think it's possible that HG was actually lost trying to GET to the DM? (or is that exactly what a lot of people have been saying all along? :)) I don't really trust the tweet reports anymore- since there are so many conflicting reports as to time, exact wording, as far as I can tell. But perhaps she was lost trying to get there, as opposed to having ended up there as a result of being lost. MO would be that if so, it would have been to meet someone specific for some reason (and I think there could be many different reasons- date, friend she wanted to see, etc).

Her demeanor- her walk, her pace- have always seemed so much more purposeful to me in those DM videos than at McGrady's. It's like she was finally where she was supposed to be. Particularly the one at Tuel's. I'm starting to think she doesn't seem like someone walking b/c they are exhausted, wants to get home, just wants "a cold beer" and a ride home. She and JM are walking so fast IMO.

Sigh. I can't seem to figure out a fully fleshed-out encompassing theory on the whole situation that night... There are a few things I'm confident about IMO, but different twists and turns keep coming up that seem plausible.
 
FWIW here is my riff on things. Super long, apologies.

HG gets seriously lost when leaving that second party as she attempts to walk home. This seems crazy, but based on what I have lived through and seen in others when extremely drunk, the more familiar you are with your surroundings the more confused and disoriented you can become. I call it the Privet Drive effect (see Harry Potter). You are more complacent when comfortable with where you are and houses, apartments, cars, porches, street corners, and doors all sort of look alike worsening your disorientation.

At 11:50 or 12:15 she declares she will walk home alone. Although a mere block from home, she makes a wrong turn and doesn't see her building, but she doesn't notice. She only feels it is close; no worries, so she keeps going. Even though she gets further from home, all is good because she is so close. Being in a neighborhood lulls her. Kinda like getting lost in a desert; being surrounded by what is familiar and the same, but instead of endless sand, it is rows of houses with some apts. She don't notice how much time has elapsed, and she is so focused on getting home like every other time; nothing feels "off'. Each corner will be "her" corner until she is utterly lost. She really has no idea of how far or how long she has wandered.

By now texting friends, and when she gets to McGrady's it is SNAFU because she has left her comfort zone of homes. She actually looks most vulnerable and scared at this point, IMO. She has no clue where she is; hence the seeking behaviors. She is relying on her phone to help, and trying to be casual about looking to street signs. She is so intent on orienting herself she stumbles off the curb. She goes toward the entrance maybe to see if a menu is posted or something to help her figure out how far she has overshot home and where the heck she is.

An employee offers help, and HG gives him an "I am just walking". In her mind she is just walking home; no biggie. I thought it weird she would decline help, but I think that based on how she was portrayed in media, this is not at all unusual. HG is extremely self reliant, exacting, and in control; not to mention invincible as we all are at age eighteen. She also knows that adults or authority figures expect her to not end up in this situation, so she kinda tries to downplay she is lost to others. She is only comfortable being that vulnerable with her friends.

I sense she runs at the Shell station not because it is dodgy, but because she needs to sober up. If she is going to get herself home, she needs to suck it up and get lucid. An athlete knows that running will release endorphins and clear up the brain fog super fast, and this works for her every time.

By the time we see her on the DM, she has a long, confident, purposeful stride. I now see purposeful really as more her conviction to get herself home. I also sense she is "faking" it a bit. Inside she feels scared and out of her safety zone, but she needs to keep it under control because that is how she rolls. I just had the thought too that maybe a friend suggested she go the mall because it is lighted, more people around, and to walk around to get her bearings and they would text her back home block by block. Or maybe she decide this. It also helped to be in a bright, less familiar environment; she is out of that lull zone. It helps continue what the running started; the adrenalin keeps flowing which further clears her head.

As for talking to JM, he was not an authority type but seemed like he could have been a student. Maybe she told him she was lost; what else could she do now that her cell battery was done for? He could have said, as luck would have it, he used to drive a cab, so he could get her home or drop her near there. I think he likely bought waters for them, btw. No way HG would have added more alcohol to the mix at this point.

This is full of holes of course, but this all that makes sense to me.
 
FWIW here is my riff on things.

HG gets seriously lost when leaving that second party as she attempts to walk home. This seems crazy, but based on what I have lived through and seen in others when extremely drunk, the more familiar you are with your surroundings the more confused and disoriented you can become. I call it the Privet Drive effect (see Harry Potter). You are more complacent when comfortable with where you are and houses, apartments, cars, porches, street corners, and doors all sort of look alike worsening your disorientation. At 11:50 or 12:15 she declares she will walk home alone. Although a mere block from home, she makes a wrong turn and doesn't see her building, but she doesn't notice. She only feels it is close; no worries, so she keeps going. Even though she gets further from home, all is good because it is all residential it lulls her. Kinda like getting lost in a desert; being surrounded by what is familiar and the same, but instead of endless sand, it is rows of houses with some apts. It is hard to notice how much time has elapsed, and you are so focused on getting home like you do all the time; nothing feels "off'. Each corner will be "her" corner until she is utterly lost. She really has no idea of how far she is from home or how long she has been wandering.

I think she is by now texting friends, and when she gets to McGrady's it is SNAFU because she has walked out of her comfort zone of residences. She actually looks most vulnerable and scared at this point, IMO. She has no clue where she is and hence the seeking behaviors. She is relying on her phone to help, and trying to be casual about looking to street signs. She is so intent on orienting herself she stumbles off the curb. She goes toward the entrance maybe to see if a menu is posted or something to help her figure out how far she has overshot home and where the heck she is.

An employee offers help, and HG gives him an "I am just walking", but she doesn't say share her full intent which ends that sentence with the word "home". In her mind she is just walking home; no biggie. I thought it weird she would decline help, but I think that based on how she was portrayed in media, this is not at all unusual. HG is extremely self reliant, exacting, and in control; besides we are all invincible at age eighteen. She also knows that adults or authority figures expect her to not end up in this situation, so she kinda tries to downplay she is lost to others. She is only comfortable being that vulnerable with her friends.

I sense she runs at the Shell station not because it is dodgy, but because running helps her sober up. If she is going to get herself home, she needs to suck it up and get lucid. An athlete knows that running will release endorphins and clear up brain fog super fast, and she has done this before.

It worked! By the time we see her on the DM, she has a long, confident, purposeful stride. I now see purposeful more as her conviction to get herself home. I also sense she is "faking" it a bit. Inside she feels scared and out of her safety zone, but she needs to keep it under control because that is how she rolls. I just had the thought too that maybe a friend suggested she go the mall because it is lighted, more people around, and to walk around to get her bearings and they would text her back home block by block. It also helped to be in bright, less familiar environment; she is out of that lull zone. It helps continue what the running started; the adrenalin keeps flowing which further clears her head.

As for talking to JM, he was not an authority type but seemed like he could have been a student. Maybe she told him she was lost; what else could she do now that her cell battery was done for? He could have said, as luck would have it, he used to drive a cab, so he could get her home or drop her near there. I think he likely bought waters for them, btw. No way HG would have added more alcohol to the mix at this point.

This is full of holes of course, but this all that makes sense to me.

With a couple minor quibbles, I think that this is what happened, IMHO. My quibbles are that I think she did recognize McGrady's and was almost like, "WTF? McGrady's? I'm confused...this is not where I thought I was, maybe there's someone here I know." I think "I'm just walking," was a knee-jerk reaction to a door-person who had asked for ID, as in, "OK, I'm fine, let's not make the fact that I just tried to enter this bar as a minor into a bigger deal than necessary". My other quibble is that I think she ran under the overpass because that place is SCARY (or so it looks in google street view). I don't think JM needs to have said he drives a cab; I think he seemed friendly and may have said he worked near where she lived and knew exactly where it was. /finally, I don;t think he bought them waters. I believe Longo said the receipt was for beer.
 
FWIW here is my riff on things. Super long, apologies.

HG gets seriously lost when leaving that second party as she attempts to walk home. This seems crazy, but based on what I have lived through and seen in others when extremely drunk, the more familiar you are with your surroundings the more confused and disoriented you can become. I call it the Privet Drive effect (see Harry Potter). You are more complacent when comfortable with where you are and houses, apartments, cars, porches, street corners, and doors all sort of look alike worsening your disorientation.

At 11:50 or 12:15 she declares she will walk home alone. Although a mere block from home, she makes a wrong turn and doesn't see her building, but she doesn't notice. She only feels it is close; no worries, so she keeps going. Even though she gets further from home, all is good because she is so close. Being in a neighborhood lulls her. Kinda like getting lost in a desert; being surrounded by what is familiar and the same, but instead of endless sand, it is rows of houses with some apts. She don't notice how much time has elapsed, and she is so focused on getting home like every other time; nothing feels "off'. Each corner will be "her" corner until she is utterly lost. She really has no idea of how far or how long she has wandered.

By now texting friends, and when she gets to McGrady's it is SNAFU because she has left her comfort zone of homes. She actually looks most vulnerable and scared at this point, IMO. She has no clue where she is; hence the seeking behaviors. She is relying on her phone to help, and trying to be casual about looking to street signs. She is so intent on orienting herself she stumbles off the curb. She goes toward the entrance maybe to see if a menu is posted or something to help her figure out how far she has overshot home and where the heck she is.

An employee offers help, and HG gives him an "I am just walking". In her mind she is just walking home; no biggie. I thought it weird she would decline help, but I think that based on how she was portrayed in media, this is not at all unusual. HG is extremely self reliant, exacting, and in control; not to mention invincible as we all are at age eighteen. She also knows that adults or authority figures expect her to not end up in this situation, so she kinda tries to downplay she is lost to others. She is only comfortable being that vulnerable with her friends.

I sense she runs at the Shell station not because it is dodgy, but because she needs to sober up. If she is going to get herself home, she needs to suck it up and get lucid. An athlete knows that running will release endorphins and clear up the brain fog super fast, and this works for her every time.

By the time we see her on the DM, she has a long, confident, purposeful stride. I now see purposeful really as more her conviction to get herself home. I also sense she is "faking" it a bit. Inside she feels scared and out of her safety zone, but she needs to keep it under control because that is how she rolls. I just had the thought too that maybe a friend suggested she go the mall because it is lighted, more people around, and to walk around to get her bearings and they would text her back home block by block. Or maybe she decide this. It also helped to be in a bright, less familiar environment; she is out of that lull zone. It helps continue what the running started; the adrenalin keeps flowing which further clears her head.

As for talking to JM, he was not an authority type but seemed like he could have been a student. Maybe she told him she was lost; what else could she do now that her cell battery was done for? He could have said, as luck would have it, he used to drive a cab, so he could get her home or drop her near there. I think he likely bought waters for them, btw. No way HG would have added more alcohol to the mix at this point.

This is full of holes of course, but this all that makes sense to me.

Nice description of a possible scenario! However, IMO, if she was so drunk that she was that lost, I don't know how she could still walk a straight line, much less stand up. I can envision this explanation if she was slipped something, or took something in addition to alcohol. But, in the end, we all handle situations differently; and she was just so darned young....
 
Nice description of a possible scenario! However, IMO, if she was so drunk that she was that lost, I don't know how she could still walk a straight line, much less stand up. I can envision this explanation if she was slipped something, or took something in addition to alcohol. But, in the end, we all handle situations differently; and she was just so darned young....

That was my thought at first too, but in my experience, you can get that utterly lost within a two block radius of your home while completely sober given the right conditions. I had that happen when I tried to get home from work in Chicago during a blizzard. I became so lost I hailed a cab thinking I was like ten blocks from my place and was in reality only a block and a half away.

Your senses just have to be somewhat dulled, could be from too much NyQuil. That Privet Drive aspect needs to be in play too. You end up wandering because everything looks more alike than different: fog, blowing snow, or stands of trees; and it can happen with rows of condos, houses, cars in a lot, street intersections, etc.

In my mind, if she were really far gone more likely she would have gone up to the door or the apt building she was partying in and taken the elevator to "her" floor and tried to open up "her" apt door. Not that this has ever happened to me or anything. :-)

I could be way off base, but seems most plausible given how little we know of her personal life. I feel just like in MH's case, HG's friends hold the key, but we will likely never know what really happened.
 

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