Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey

[CathyR]

UK Guy

What evidence that both of them were involved in the staging.

I know the RN looks like Patsy's but I hate to admit this---one of my sons could mimic my handwriting very well. He had started practicing when he was still in elementary and by the time he was in Jr High he could and did write some excuse notes. The notes didn't get him caught but a conversation with a teacher did. Burke might be able to mimic Patsy's handwriting, could explain why experts say close but not a match.

Were practice notes found?

I have read somewhere that a "rough draft" was found by police. I don't see an adult leaving that around to be discovered. They had a fireplace and paper burns easily and can then be flushed leaving nothing of, at least enough paper residue that it could be explained as being used to light the fireplace. A complete burned page would raise an eyebrow and might get collected as evidence.

I don't see the R's favoring JBR over Burke. She does have baby of the family status but he obviously isn't lacking in outside activities, his folks get him a gaming system that was near impossible to find, he played with his dad with this system.

His sister didn't like her big gift the Twin Doll and if he is so competitive, that would have been pleasing to him as he loved his gift. He would feel like the favored child in that instance.

My kids didn't hit each other with golf clubs but they did become violent with each other, throwing things, slamming each other against walls but they were older and teen-aged when violence was at worst. Sex order was reversed in my family with sister being the oldest and a son being the baby of the family. Fights involving a sister and a brother were the most violent in our house. Sister could hold her own and boys had to be rescued from her. The violence was gradual in increasing the intensity. It did start about the time the sister turned 10 and boys were 8 and 6. Youngest and oldest had an alliance against middle child. The family dichotomy was different as there are only 2 close to same age.

 

[UKGuy]

UK Guy

What evidence that both of them were involved in the staging.

I know the RN looks like Patsy's but I hate to admit this---one of my sons could mimic my handwriting very well. He had started practicing when he was still in elementary and by the time he was in Jr High he could and did write some excuse notes. The notes didn't get him caught but a conversation with a teacher did. Burke might be able to mimic Patsy's handwriting, could explain why experts say close but not a match.

Were practice notes found?

I have read somewhere that a "rough draft" was found by police. I don't see an adult leaving that around to be discovered. They had a fireplace and paper burns easily and can then be flushed leaving nothing of, at least enough paper residue that it could be explained as being used to light the fireplace. A complete burned page would raise an eyebrow and might get collected as evidence.

I don't see the R's favoring JBR over Burke. She does have baby of the family status but he obviously isn't lacking in outside activities, his folks get him a gaming system that was near impossible to find, he played with his dad with this system.

His sister didn't like her big gift the Twin Doll and if he is so competitive, that would have been pleasing to him as he loved his gift. He would feel like the favored child in that instance.

My kids didn't hit each other with golf clubs but they did become violent with each other, throwing things, slamming each other against walls but they were older and teen-aged when violence was at worst. Sex order was reversed in my family with sister being the oldest and a son being the baby of the family. Fights involving a sister and a brother were the most violent in our house. Sister could hold her own and boys had to be rescued from her. The violence was gradual in increasing the intensity. It did start about the time the sister turned 10 and boys were 8 and 6. Youngest and oldest had an alliance against middle child. The family dichotomy was different as there are only 2 close to same age.

CathyR,
There is a laundry list of evidence. I ignore some evidence such as the ransom note since its purpose is entirely diversionary e.g. it it not part of the original crime-scene.

We have the paint-tray:

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt.

13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Now, Mrs. Ramsey,
14 you -- are you aware, I should say, that
15 your paint kit was found very close to the
16 wine cellar door?
17 A. I have heard that.
18 Q. Did you recall at any time that
19 you were shown photographs in that regard?
20 A. No.
21 Q. We have found, and I want you to
22 help us, maybe you can offer an explanation
23 for this. We have found fibers in the paint
24 tray that appear to come off of the coat in
25 the photograph we showed you.
0184
1 A. In the paint tray?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. What's a paint --

Also Patsy's fibers are embedded into the ligature that was tied around JonBenet's neck, her fibers were found on the underside of the duct-tape that had been placed over JonBenet's lips. All this despite Patsy stating she had not been in the wine-cellar the previous night at all!

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt.

3 MR. LEVIN: I think that is
4 probably fair. Based on the state of the
5 art scientific testing, we believe the fibers
6 from her jacket were found in the paint
7 tray, were found tied into the ligature found
8 on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket
9 that she is wrapped in, were found on the
10 duct tape that is found on the mouth, and
11 the question is, can she explain to us how
12 those fibers appeared in those places that
13 are associated with her daughter's death.
14 And I understand you are not going to answer
15 those.
16 MR. WOOD: Right. Not, not

Fibers from Johns Israeli manufactured shirt were found on JonBenet's genitalia, remember the Coroner cited evidence for someone wiping JonBnet down.

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt.

10 In addition to those questions,
11 there are some others that I would like you
12 to think about whether or not we can have
13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
14 understand you are advising her not to today,
15 and those are there are black fibers that,
16 according to our testing that was conducted,
17 that match one of the two shirts that was
18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
19 Those are located in the
20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
21 her crotch area, and I believe those are two
22 other areas that we have intended to ask
23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
24 explaining their presence in those locations.
25 MR. WOOD: And again, you state

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth.

The latter are items that link the parents directly with the crime-scene, whether you interpret them as reliable or relevant is for you to decide.

.

 

[BBB167893]

All the damage caused by the trauma of the sexual assault is what I call the worst of it. Didn't some of that trauma also involve the Hyman?

Some. And it was the worst of it, but even then, it slants RDI. If RDI, it was the worst because it had to be. It doesn't make sense, IDI-wise, since the damage would have been MUCH worse than it was. It's as if someone took a blind shot.

But at a different location than the healing area?

Possibly.

The evidence pointing to prior abuse ( the things that were healing) is that the reason why that her hymen is small. It is described as erosion and the fact that certain blood cells present show it was healing.

Some of her vaginal wall had been eroded too.

What is the time frame of healing when could this initial abuse have occurred.

I've heard estimates anywhere from three to ten days. More accurately, Dr. McCann said that he could only go back ten days, but it could have been much longer.

It was Christmas she was out of school, for how long?

Most places I know, kids are out of school for Christmas break from the 22nd to January 2nd.

You have convinced me there is some compelling proof of prior abuse.

Now how do you tie it to the R's?

That's the hard part, CathyR. For me, it's sort of a "gut" thing, you know?

 

[joeskidbeck]

That's the hard part, CathyR. For me, it's sort of a "gut" thing, you know? -SuperDave

Dave, my gut feeling tells me that a Ramsey family member would be the only person(s) they would cover for. They were covering for someone, else there would not have been the need for staging. So, if there was prior molestation, it would have had to have been someone that both Patsy and John would cover for. For some reason, this makes me think it wasn't JAR or DP. Know what I mean?

 

[DeeDee249]

There was at least one practice note that began "Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey..." The handwriting of the practice note matched the ransom note. Patsy's sister (I believe it was her) admitted that the practice note WAS written by Patsy but she said it was the beginning of a party invitation. LE never pushed to know why she would say the practice note was written by Patsy, yet not the ransom note, when the handwriting was the same.
There were also several missing pages that had been ripped out of the pad between that practice note and the RN.

 

[BBB167893]

That's the hard part, CathyR. For me, it's sort of a "gut" thing, you know? -SuperDave

Dave, my gut feeling tells me that a Ramsey family member would be the only person(s) they would cover for. They were covering for someone, else there would not have been the need for staging. So, if there was prior molestation, it would have had to have been someone that both Patsy and John would cover for. For some reason, this makes me think it wasn't JAR or DP. Know what I mean?

I get you all right.

 

[KoldKase]

No, it isn't and I really wish it was. FFJ was established so long ago and its a way for a really tight-knit group who have been around forever and know everything to discuss the case.

I didn't feel right joining. I felt like I would be barging in without an invite. I just want to view that case library.. maybe someone could make it public, maybe there are good reasons it's private.

Oh, I wouldn't worry about any "barging in" causing any fallout, as I don't think we're all that picky. I think the issue right now about adding new members is that the mods are few and nobody has the time to monitor the forum that much. FFJ got targeted by trolls a lot when it first opened because of a lot of bad blood between members of other forums. In fact, that's why it was opened. Then there were the IDIs who came in meaning to cause trouble. We were probably too sensitive, too, by then, but at some point, you just want to discuss the case and not waste time fighting over insults. With a larger forum, that's just not possible, no matter how much people try to behave--and I'm as bad as anyone when I get worked up, I admit.

I talked to the admin at FFJ and she says the forum case library should be open to the public, including case transcripts and photos we've put up recently. I've logged out of FFJ and I can see them fine.

Would y'all try it and see if you can, too? We'd like for that to be public:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12"]Ramsey Murder Case Library - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[joeskidbeck]

Thanks, KK. I went over and can see the photos and other evidence just fine. Also got a question from this forum answered. There is a photo there of the tape that was removed from JB's mouth and there was some question here yesterday about a photo being the same tape. According to FFJ, it is the same tape. John not remembering the tape is just another case of Ramnesia.

 

[Agatha_C]

Thanks, KK. I went over and can see the photos and other evidence just fine. Also got a question from this forum answered. There is a photo there of the tape that was removed from JB's mouth and there was some question here yesterday about a photo being the same tape. According to FFJ, it is the same tape. John not remembering the tape is just another case of Ramnesia.

Since someone took the survey and brought the thread to the front of the line, I thought to add a link to the picture of the tape on FFJ...

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9867"]Miscellaneous - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[Chelly]

Oh, I wouldn't worry about any "barging in" causing any fallout, as I don't think we're all that picky. I think the issue right now about adding new members is that the mods are few and nobody has the time to monitor the forum that much. FFJ got targeted by trolls a lot when it first opened because of a lot of bad blood between members of other forums. In fact, that's why it was opened. Then there were the IDIs who came in meaning to cause trouble. We were probably too sensitive, too, by then, but at some point, you just want to discuss the case and not waste time fighting over insults. With a larger forum, that's just not possible, no matter how much people try to behave--and I'm as bad as anyone when I get worked up, I admit.

I talked to the admin at FFJ and she says the forum case library should be open to the public, including case transcripts and photos we've put up recently. I've logged out of FFJ and I can see them fine.

Would y'all try it and see if you can, too? We'd like for that to be public:

Ramsey Murder Case Library - Forums For Justice

Ohhhhh, so THAT'S why I was denied admission to FFJ Forum. OK. Completely Understandable. I still follow it religiously.

 

[cubbeegirl]

Ohhhhh, so THAT'S why I was denied admission to FFJ Forum. OK. Completely Understandable. I still follow it religiously.

Me too Chelly...but I will admit that it sometimes can be aggravating when I really have something to add to the discussion and cannot post lease::facepalm:

 

[rachael123]

Neither parent would have gone to jail in the People's Republic of Boulder, where nothing anybody does is ever their fault.
BR was under 10- by Colorado law, he couldn't even be NAMED in association with a crime, even the death of his sister. Had LE been aware that the parents were covering for their son, because of Colorado law, a person can't be arrested there for being an accessory to murder if no one was arrested for the murder.
Tampering with evidence would probably be the worst they'd have faced, but a judge may very well have barred them from being arrested for that if the killer they covered for was under 10.
Whether the Rs were aware of all of this is debatable, but I'd file this under "information gotten in a late-night call to a lawyer friend".

I have a question DeeDee,would BR DNA be put into evidence at the crime and would we know it.

 

[chlban]

Linda NJ;5712219

It happens. Fathers sometimes pick ONE daughter to molest and leave the rest alone

So True, although up until last year I would probably have doubted that. Then we found out our good friends brother in law was arrested when his 20 year old daughter told her school counseler that her father had molested her for years.
I had only met this man in passing at a couple of Christmas parties, but I would never, ever have imagined. He has three daughters. The other two swear he has never touched them inappropriately in their lives. In fact they are angry at the sister that the percieve as having gotten their father in trouble.

Personally, I have never totally bought into the fact that John was the one molesting JB. However, the fact that there is no history with the other sisters, does not have any bearing on that, as I have learned.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have a question DeeDee,would BR DNA be put into evidence at the crime and would we know it.

I do believe BR gave samples of saliva. We would never be told whether there was a match. We do know that his touch DNA was found on the pink nightie in the basement and his prints are on the bowl of pineapple and also on the glass with the tea bag that was also on that table with the bowl. It was not mentioned whether the paper tag on the tea bag was tested for prints or TDNA. I would bet it was not.

 

[DeeDee249]

Linda NJ;5712219

So True, although up until last year I would probably have doubted that. Then we found out our good friends brother in law was arrested when his 20 year old daughter told her school counseler that her father had molested her for years.
I had only met this man in passing at a couple of Christmas parties, but I would never, ever have imagined. He has three daughters. The other two swear he has never touched them inappropriately in their lives. In fact they are angry at the sister that the percieve as having gotten their father in trouble.

Personally, I have never totally bought into the fact that John was the one molesting JB. However, the fact that there is no history with the other sisters, does not have any bearing on that, as I have learned.

I can state for a fact that a good friend- one of 8 kids- was molested by a relative. She was the only child in the family that was abused. Sometimes an abuser just senses which child is vulnerable.
In my own family, my late brother-in-law was molested by a parish priest. Even though my husband was also an altar boy and was in close contact with this priest, he was never abused or approached inappropriately. It was quite a shock when the truth came out almost 60 years later (the priest was dead by that time, as was the monsignor who oversaw the parish).

 

[questfortrue]

Who and why,
If it is true that someone anonymously ordered a JB Twinn Doll which was sent to JR's office, and it was ordered within an hour or two of PP's raid removing 'stuff' from the house, who ordered it and why??

 

[gramcracker]

I can state for a fact that a good friend- one of 8 kids- was molested by a relative. She was the only child in the family that was abused. Sometimes an abuser just senses which child is vulnerable. In my own family, my late brother-in-law was molested by a parish priest. Even though my husband was also an altar boy and was in close contact with this priest, he was never abused or approached inappropriately. It was quite a shock when the truth came out almost 60 years later (the priest was dead by that time, as was the monsignor who oversaw the parish).

singling out one child is common with physical/verbal/emotional abuse as well. in addition to sensing a vulnerability, abusers quite often target the one child who is in some way similar to themselves (as children)

 

[DeeDee249]

Who and why,
If it is true that someone anonymously ordered a JB Twinn Doll which was sent to JR's office, and it was ordered within an hour or two of PP's raid removing 'stuff' from the house, who ordered it and why??

It wasn't a My Twinn doll. It was an American Girl doll. The doll JB received Christmas morning WAS a My Twinn doll dressed in a pageant dress and tiara. JB promptly turned her nose up at it saying that it didn't look like her. I think Patsy must have been pretty upset- she expected JB to love the doll.
Not much follow up from LE on the mysterious American Girl doll sent to Access Graphics office. I have read that the Pleasant Company (manufacturer of the American Girl dolls) said that it was a phone order and tney didn't have much info about it.
Some people feel the tape that had been on JB's lips may have been pulled from the neck of JB's American Girl doll. Those dolls have a vinyl head and limbs attached to a fleshtone cotton stuffed cloth body. The doll's head is tied to the body with a cord around the neck (I know, creepy, right?) and the company suggested parents cover the cord knot with a piece of duct tape. If it is true the tape came from JB's doll, the doll may have been discarded or destroyed. And the "missing" doll may have seemed suspicious to those who knew JB had one- so a replacement may have been ordered. I do not know whether the Pleasant Company provided LE with the date the order was placed. An order placed after her death would be highly suspicious.
There is a photo of an American Girl doll with the cord around her neck on this site. You should be able to search it.

 

[dodie20]

It wasn't a My Twinn doll. It was an American Girl doll. The doll JB received Christmas morning WAS a My Twinn doll dressed in a pageant dress and tiara. JB promptly turned her nose up at it saying that it didn't look like her. I think Patsy must have been pretty upset- she expected JB to love the doll.
Not much follow up from LE on the mysterious American Girl doll sent to Access Graphics office. I have read that the Pleasant Company (manufacturer of the American Girl dolls) said that it was a phone order and tney didn't have much info about it.
Some people feel the tape that had been on JB's lips may have been pulled from the neck of JB's American Girl doll. Those dolls have a vinyl head and limbs attached to a fleshtone cotton stuffed cloth body. The doll's head is tied to the body with a cord around the neck (I know, creepy, right?) and the company suggested parents cover the cord knot with a piece of duct tape. If it is true the tape came from JB's doll, the doll may have been discarded or destroyed. And the "missing" doll may have seemed suspicious to those who knew JB had one- so a replacement may have been ordered. I do not know whether the Pleasant Company provided LE with the date the order was placed. An order placed after her death would be highly suspicious.
There is a photo of an American Girl doll with the cord around her neck on this site. You should be able to search it.

I just googled around and you're right, it is creepy. I saw where the doll's string was tied behind the neck and saw some 'restringing elastic cord' for sale on ebay.

 

[Wildflower73]

I have always wonderd why FW returned to the basement and picked up that piece of tape that had been on JB.s mouth. Now I can't help but wonder perhaps he recognized it from
seeing it on her doll?
Now, what if someone decided to order a doll just like it and sent to the office at AG;
perhaps to say to someone "I know what you did?"

Just MOO.. and my vivid imagination...