Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***

[Zman]

Gosh who knows why the rams didnt wait it out, we can only speculate. We dont even know the timeline of what happened that night, for all we know the rams could have killed JBR by 11pm, staged the scene in the basement and written the RN by 2am, then were left dwindling their thumbs for a few hours until they couldnt stand it any longer. We can see this agitation on John that very morning when JBRs body hadnt been found when the cops first came round at 6am like the rams had possible anticpated. by 1pm he was that bad arndt noticed and regrettable gave him something 'to do'. I understand your reasoning Zman as to why the rams could have waited and taken advantage of the RN for a few hours, but perhaps the rams didnt want to, perhaps they wanted the cops, their friends and thier pastor their now...it was time they thought. Perhaps the rams thought everything that could possible be done had been done to cover thier tracks now was 'showtime'.

As i'm typing the thought arises that maybe the rams had this debate also on that fateful morning!

Interestingly enough Charlie I don't view anything done that morning as covering their tracks. If I wanted to claim an IDI the first thing I would do is break open a door or window not tie my dead daughter up in a garotte and molest her with a paint brush.

 

[Charlie]

Interestingly enough Charlie I don't view anything done that morning as covering their tracks. If I wanted to claim an IDI the first thing I would do is break open a door or window not tie my dead daughter up in a garotte and molest her with a paint brush.

The rams mighten have had much choice depeneding on how JBR was intially killed. The Garrott has been said by others that it could have been simply a device to cover up a previous strangling in the bedroom perhaps....therefore the garott was needed, the painbrush was def a good way to claim IDI because what parent molests thier child? Again some say the suitcase was placed under the already broken window to support IDI.

Do you discount RDI based on how the rams staged "tie dead daughter up in a garotte and molest her with a paint brush" rather than the obvious "break open a door or window"...?

 

[Zman]

The rams mighten have had much choice depeneding on how JBR was intially killed. The Garrott has been said by others that it could have been simply a device to cover up a previous strangling in the bedroom perhaps....therefore the garott was needed, the painbrush was def a good way to claim IDI because what parent molests thier child? Again some say the suitcase was placed under the already broken window to support IDI.

Do you discount RDI based on how the rams staged "tie dead daughter up in a garotte and molest her with a paint brush" rather than the obvious "break open a door or window"...?

Yes I do I really do + the R's did not write the RN.

 

[Eagle1]

There was lint on the bottoms of JonBenet's bare feet, according to ST. He assumed it was from the basement. You wouldn't think there would be lint anywhere upstairs, and if the housekeeper had been doing her job, there shouldn't have been any in the basement either.

So she evidently was not killed anywhere upstairs. Speculation, was she being told to look for a special gift in some basement closet that nobody, incl the housekeeper and the killer, ever went near? JonBenet wouldn't think to look for his or any footprints near it, she'd be so excited.

Possibly there are other theories how she got lint on her feet, I'd love to hear. It's not likely he'd make that up. What would have made him think of it, unless maybe some previous case. What about this factor?

 

[UKGuy]

There was lint on the bottoms of JonBenet's bare feet, according to ST. He assumed it was from the basement. You wouldn't think there would be lint anywhere upstairs, and if the housekeeper had been doing her job, there shouldn't have been any in the basement either.

So she evidently was not killed anywhere upstairs. Speculation, was she being told to look for a special gift in some basement closet that nobody, incl the housekeeper and the killer, ever went near? JonBenet wouldn't think to look for his or any footprints near it, she'd be so excited.

Possibly there are other theories how she got lint on her feet, I'd love to hear. It's not likely he'd make that up. What would have made him think of it, unless maybe some previous case. What about this factor?

Eagle1:
What kind of lint do you think it was, is it a general description for dust from a concrete floor, or unknown fuzzy particles, or fine ravellings of cotton or linen fibers ?

Any cotton fibers may have been sourced from a bed or matress. If there are any photos taken of JonBenet in the laundry room, and there is at least one, then she may have been comfortable about being invited down to the basement. If I put barefeet, restraining nylon cord, missing underwear and camera together then I can envizage some lurid scenario which ends with her being killed, redresssed and placed in the wine-cellar!

 

[why_nutt]

If I wanted to claim an IDI the first thing I would do is break open a door or window not tie my dead daughter up in a garotte and molest her with a paint brush.

Okay, you want to stage an intruder break-in, by literally breaking a door or window. And what do you have at that point, sometime between 9:30 at night and six in the morning? You have an enormous risk of having the neighbors, and there are many of them, who live right on top of you, calling the cops because "I heard a very loud breaking sound from my neighbor's house, can you please come check it out?".

Whereas, if you tie a ligature around your dead daughter, it is a silent act and no neighbor knows anything until you begin to set the wheels in motion which bring the cops on your own chosen schedule and not anyone else's.

 

[why_nutt]

I hope I'm not being argumentative here but the R's don't have to be anywhere at anytime. All they had to do was call the pilot and cancel the flight. They could say JR didn't feel well or PR was sick or anything they wanted.

At six o'clock in the morning, John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, and Melinda's fiancee Stewart Long were in the air, flying on an airplane to meet John, Patsy, Burke, and JonBenet. By seven o'clock at the very latest, Burke Ramsey would have been undisputably awake, dressed, and ready for his very exciting trip to Charlevoix, where he was going to meet his older brother and sister. Now, I would like you to construct a credible scenario in which John and/or Patsy Ramsey explain to Burke that he is most definitely not going to fly to Charlevoix to meet his brother and sister who are about to cool their heels for some indeterminate period of time in another state, and I would like you further to do this without being able to tell Burke, who is already in the house himself, that his mother, father, and little sister have a much bigger problem than simply "not feeling well so the trip is cancelled." Bonus points if you can figure out how to tell a nine-year-old boy raised on the Discovery Channel, and consequently raised on shows like the Forensic Files and The New Detectives, why his supposedly innocent parents have not called the police at seven o'clock, eight o'clock, nine o'clock in the morning.

(People underestimate Burke, but I would generally not do so. John and Patsy have several times said that the Discovery Channel was Burke's favorite tv station to watch, so he had more than ample opportunity to be exposed to various how-they-did-it crime shows, even in 1996. I would not tend to think of him as some tousled-haired kid who would be astounded at the idea that people may actually sometimes hurt each other and even kill each other.)

 

[Zman]

At six o'clock in the morning, John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, and Melinda's fiancee Stewart Long were in the air, flying on an airplane to meet John, Patsy, Burke, and JonBenet. By seven o'clock at the very latest, Burke Ramsey would have been undisputably awake, dressed, and ready for his very exciting trip to Charlevoix, where he was going to meet his older brother and sister. Now, I would like you to construct a credible scenario in which John and/or Patsy Ramsey explain to Burke that he is most definitely not going to fly to Charlevoix to meet his brother and sister who are about to cool their heels for some indeterminate period of time in another state, and I would like you further to do this without being able to tell Burke, who is already in the house himself, that his mother, father, and little sister have a much bigger problem than simply "not feeling well so the trip is cancelled." Bonus points if you can figure out how to tell a nine-year-old boy raised on the Discovery Channel, and consequently raised on shows like the Forensic Files and The New Detectives, why his supposedly innocent parents have not called the police at seven o'clock, eight o'clock, nine o'clock in the morning.

(People underestimate Burke, but I would generally not do so. John and Patsy have several times said that the Discovery Channel was Burke's favorite tv station to watch, so he had more than ample opportunity to be exposed to various how-they-did-it crime shows, even in 1996. I would not tend to think of him as some tousled-haired kid who would be astounded at the idea that people may actually sometimes hurt each other and even kill each other.)

Ok
Burke, your sisters been kidnapped you can't say anything to anyone or they will kill her it says so right here in the RN. We have to wait for the kidnappers call at 10 am. Stay right here. We won't be going to Charlevoix as planned. Were going to call the others and tell them mom is sick and we will be delayed till tomorrow so they won't worry and the kidnappers won't suspect anything.

By the way beings everyone is so fond of relating their own experiences when it comes to the R's lets try this one.

What 9 year old is ever undisputably awake, dressed, and ready for anything at 7 in the morning?
Im sure PR was getting ready to drag them from bed an get them dressed.

 

[Nehemiah]

OkWhat 9 year old is ever undisputably awake, dressed, and ready for anything at 7 in the morning?
Im sure PR was getting ready to drag them from bed an get them dressed.

Any 9 yr old boy who received the hottest item for Christmas the day before.

 

[why_nutt]

Any 9 yr old boy who received the hottest item for Christmas the day before.

Also, any child who has already been asleep for nine hours. By the way, take into consider also that at six in the morning, Burke's bladder had around eight hours or so's worth of urine in it, and even if the screaming had not woken him, his own bladder surely should have.

 

[Jayelles]

Any 9 yr old boy who received the hottest item for Christmas the day before.

Yes this is very true. I remember the excitement of the Nintendo and the desperation to play with it. My son got one that Christmas too.

 

[Eagle1]

I don't think ST mentioned exactly what kind of lint. I wondered too. I would guess it meant fabric rather than the dust or mold that was on part of the basement floor. Don't make me haul my book down from the shelf. I never can find things that fast when I haven't seen them in a long time, and have been having some eye surgery, not supposed to see much better until Nov. I'm not reading books or newspapers for a while.

Could he have meant dryer lint? The kind you clean off one of those catchers in the dryer and throw away, but some had been left lying around? If so, they're lucky they didn't have a fire down there (?) Just guessing, though.

 

[tragco]

It's frustrating that experts can't agree on which came first: the strangulation or the head blow. I'm wondering which order people think these three would be in:

1)head blow
2)strangulation
3)scream

If you don't think there was a scream then did the head blow or strangulation come first?

My opinion: scream, head blow, strangulation; and this is because it fits my theory.

It is refuted by Dr.Wecht, I believe, who says there would be much more blood if the head blow came before strangulation.

If he is right, and the strangulation came first (scream, strangulation, head blow), how does that fit into everyone's theories?

 

[joeskidbeck]

It's frustrating that experts can't agree on which came first: the strangulation or the head blow. I'm wondering which order people think these three would be in:

1)head blow
2)strangulation
3)scream

If you don't think there was a scream then did the head blow or strangulation come first?

My opinion: scream, head blow, strangulation; and this is because it fits my theory.

It is refuted by Dr.Wecht, I believe, who says there would be much more blood if the head blow came before strangulation.

If he is right, and the strangulation came first (scream, strangulation, head blow), how does that fit into everyone's theories?

I'm also scream, head blow, strangulation. Dr Wecht surely knew that her scalp wasn't bleeding from the head wound. Do you know what he meant by "much more blood"?
TIA
Becky

 

[tragco]

I'm also scream, head blow, strangulation. Dr Wecht surely knew that her scalp wasn't bleeding from the head wound. Do you know what he meant by "much more blood"?
TIA
Becky

Hmm.. good question. I think he never specified beyond there should have been more than 2 teaspoons? I don't know what amount of blood he would have considered to be "enough" to rule that the head blow came first.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hmm.. good question. I think he never specified beyond there should have been more than 2 teaspoons? I don't know what amount of blood he would have considered to be "enough" to rule that the head blow came first.

I am also "scream, head blow, strangulation". I feel that the very minimal swelling in the brain was evidence that the strangulation came soon after the head bash, and she simply was not alive long enough for more swelling to develop or to bleed more.

 

[txsvicki]

I think the head injury was last. There seems to have been more blood from the sexual assault than there was from the head injury, so she had to of been alive during the assault and the strangulation with the bash to the head at the very last. Also, I thought that the neighbor woman who reported a scream said later that she really didn't hear one, that it was a psychic scream or some such nonsense.

 

[LinasK]

toltec,

What Wecht was describing in his book was a "gentle" strangulation, the kind used in sexual breath control games like EA and AEA. The goal was breath control, not strangulation. That's why the hyoid bone wasn't broken nor was the tongue swollen, as found in deliberate strangulations. IMO JonBenet was accidentally strangled, not deliberately strangled, while erotic asphyxiation sex was being performed on her (probably involuntarily).

The elaborate device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was designed for breath control games. It's not a garrote. Garrotes don't look like that. The hit on the head came after JonBenet was dead and was staging to try to make it appear as though the perp was a foreign terrorist -- thus directing suspicion away from the family.

Wecht is convinced EA was performed on JonBenet; but he incorrectly points the finger at John as the perp. It wasn't John -- it was kids who didn't know what the hell they were doing, and they accidentally strangled JonBenet. The parents were engaged in some of the staging and most of the coverup.

BlueCrab

I think this is what happened, however, I do believe it was John doing it, not Burke...

 

[CathyR]

I don't think so. PR and JR say that it's unlikly that JBR could have reached the bowl or spoon used. Also they were not even sure she could open the refrigerater.

The pineapple is a big IDI plus because the R's would have never used the bowl and spoon in question and would have never forgot to get rid of it during the supposed staging.

Not to mention a child in search of a snack is not usually headed for the pineapple and most 6 year olds are pretty scared of headed down stairs by themselves.

JBR's favorite snack was pineapple. She loved it. Not frozen, not canned she liked fresh.

I think it was John who said JB was scared of the stairs. Maybe the traditional ones but I wonder if she was as scared of the spiral. It was close and she could grab both handrails to go down it. My 1 yr old grandson loves the stairs and likes to go down on his butt sitting style.

 

[CathyR]

I think the head injury was last. There seems to have been more blood from the sexual assault than there was from the head injury, so she had to of been alive during the assault and the strangulation with the bash to the head at the very last. Also, I thought that the neighbor woman who reported a scream said later that she really didn't hear one, that it was a psychic scream or some such nonsense.

I think she back tracked as she had her days mixed up. I think she did hear a scream but it was the day before and the scream she heard was a scream for a gift a neighbor got. A new car. I can't remember where I read this as it has been awhile. I think it was back when the tabs had this case on the front page every week. I think the story was from the Boulder area where the whole crux of the story was how disappointing false leads are.



When pressured to change her story back to the original date and time, (morning with the sun up) is when the comment about the scream she heard being on the correct day and time being a psychic scream. ( I believe she was being sarcastic).

Even if she did hear it on the correct day the time was off. JBR was dead by the time the sun rose on the 26th.

The scream is not evidence that can be used as it can't be verified by the neighbor who says they heard it. They have changed their mind or their story.

The pain caused by the sexual assault would have been enough to make a 6 year old scream loud enough to be heard. This comes from experts in child abuse.

That is why I think the order of injuries are
Head Bash, assault, strangulation.

She was unconscious when the assault happened even if taped her lips would not have left a perfect print as she would be fighting back, at least enough movement to mess up the perfect lip print.

Her brain bleeding was evident it just didn't last for hours before her death.

I think from the time of assault till she was strangled was 30 minutes at the top and 10 minutes in the bottom end. She bled some not a lot but some from her brain injury. The major brain vessels themselves were not broken open and the skin over the fracture was not open. This would limit the blood loss from brain injury. Skull skin contains lots and lots of capillaries. If more blood was present I'd say (depending on how much blood) that there was a delay, an hour maybe before the strangulation. Since there isn't ( more blood) death followed not too long after the head injury
This happened quickly. One right after the other.

Her sexual injuries did bleed, that part of the body will bleed easily and quickly as many capillaries are present.

After the assault she was strangled with the cord.

Two injuries she received did bleed the head injury and her assault injuries.

If the intent of the head injury was to kill her why move to strangulation?
The killer would just keep bashing. The head injury was intended to knock her out or render her unable to cry out. The killer would need her unable to cry for help when he assaulted her. The strangulation even has a sexual overtone to it.