Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***

[BBB167893]

It's frustrating that experts can't agree on which came first: the strangulation or the head blow.

In this instance, some experts are more equal than others. The ones who did the more extensive analysis say head blow first. The armchair experts say strangulation.

I'm wondering which order people think these three would be in:

1)head blow
2)strangulation
3)scream

If you don't think there was a scream then did the head blow or strangulation come first?

Head blow, and I don't think there was a scream. That witness couldn't keep her story straight.

My opinion: scream, head blow, strangulation; and this is because it fits my theory.

Okay.

It is refuted by Dr.Wecht, I believe, who says there would be much more blood if the head blow came before strangulation.

Well, I've certainly heard that argument, but bear in mind that there were THREE areas of bleeding in her head, which Tom Henry described as a giant blood clot, and what Kerry Brega said: sometimes you see massive head wounds with very little bleeding and they didn't get strangled on the way in.

 

[DeeDee249]

The scream heard by the neighbor was an midnight. Doubt she was mistaken on the night, and her husband also heard metal scraping concrete around midnight as well.
Doubt it was someone excited by a new car at that time of the night. As you've mentioned it, can you provide a source or link that says someone said it was a scream for a gift?

 

[DeeDee249]

I think the head injury was last. There seems to have been more blood from the sexual assault than there was from the head injury, so she had to of been alive during the assault and the strangulation with the bash to the head at the very last. Also, I thought that the neighbor woman who reported a scream said later that she really didn't hear one, that it was a psychic scream or some such nonsense.

While there may not have been the large amounts of blood that would occur with an open-scalp injury, there was still much more blood with the skull fracture than there was in her vagina. NOT including the blood that was wiped from her thighs ad pubic area. We don't know exactly how much blood was wiped, only that swabs tested for her own blood (NO male DNA) and there were dark fibers all over that area.
There was blood spread over the brain in the area under the dura mater. Only "small and very small" (coroner's words) were found inside her vagina. Not to downplay this finding as blood of any kind should not be inside the vagina of a 6-year old child, but the skull did have much more blood than INSIDE the vagina.

 

[Bobbarita]

I am also "scream, head blow, strangulation". I feel that the very minimal swelling in the brain was evidence that the strangulation came soon after the head bash, and she simply was not alive long enough for more swelling to develop or to bleed more.

I'm down with "scream, headblow, strangulation" too. And the comminuted skull fracture would not bleed profusely.

 

[Bobbarita]

JBR's favorite snack was pineapple. She loved it. Not frozen, not canned she liked fresh.

I think it was John who said JB was scared of the stairs. Maybe the traditional ones but I wonder if she was as scared of the spiral. It was close and she could grab both handrails to go down it. My 1 yr old grandson loves the stairs and likes to go down on his butt sitting style.

Is that information from an interview? I don't remember that in the transcripts.

 

[Bobbarita]

I think the head injury was last. There seems to have been more blood from the sexual assault than there was from the head injury, so she had to of been alive during the assault and the strangulation with the bash to the head at the very last. Also, I thought that the neighbor woman who reported a scream said later that she really didn't hear one, that it was a psychic scream or some such nonsense.

From ST's Book, Jon Benet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation

Pg.41 "Another neighbor, Melody Stanton, whose bedroom faced the Ramsey home from across the street, did not want to get involved in the investigation and told police that she heard nothing unusual during the night. She would soon revise her statement to say that she had heard a child scream."

Pgs.78-79 "In a few days another neighbor, Melody Stanton, who lived at 738 Fifteenth Street, diagonally across from the Ramsy home, also changed her original story, which was that she had not noticed anything unusual on the night JonBenet died. She now claimed to have heard the piercing scream of a child between midnight and two o'clock on the morning of December 26.

If that cry came from JonBenet, it would help determine the time of death. If a neighbor clear across the street heard the scream, I wondered how anyone in the house could not have heard it.

Her story, which seemed to be a clear piece of evidence, contained its own seed of destruction, however. More than a year later we would discover than Stanton also told the detective, 'It may not have been an audible scream but rather the negative energy radiating from JonBenet.'

The detective returned to that odd point several times during the interview, but Stanton never again mentioned the 'negative energy'. She insisted she heard an audible scream. so the detective did not include the 'negative energy' comment in his report.

A year later he was ordered to write an amended report. Changing a report is a huge issue for police since it brings the validity of the entire statement into question. His revised report was not the first, and would not be the last, that would enter the Ramsey case file."

 

[Ames]

From ST's Book, Jon Benet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation

Pg.41 "Another neighbor, Melody Stanton, whose bedroom faced the Ramsey home from across the street, did not want to get involved in the investigation and told police that she heard nothing unusual during the night. She would soon revise her statement to say that she had heard a child scream."

Pgs.78-79 "In a few days another neighbor, Melody Stanton, who lived at 738 Fifteenth Street, diagonally across from the Ramsy home, also changed her original story, which was that she had not noticed anything unusual on the night JonBenet died. She now claimed to have heard the piercing scream of a child between midnight and two o'clock on the morning of December 26.

If that cry came from JonBenet, it would help determine the time of death. If a neighbor clear across the street heard the scream, I wondered how anyone in the house could not have heard it.

Her story, which seemed to be a clear piece of evidence, contained its own seed of destruction, however. More than a year later we would discover than Stanton also told the detective, 'It may not have been an audible scream but rather the negative energy radiating from JonBenet.'

The detective returned to that odd point several times during the interview, but Stanton never again mentioned the 'negative energy'. She insisted she heard an audible scream. so the detective did not include the 'negative energy' comment in his report.

A year later he was ordered to write an amended report. Changing a report is a huge issue for police since it brings the validity of the entire statement into question. His revised report was not the first, and would not be the last, that would enter the Ramsey case file."

I am thinking that she heard a scream....but someone on the Ramsey team talked to her and then she changed her story.

 

[vlpate]

Who believes, as does Dr. Wecht, that the head injury came last?

During the websleuths radio show, featuring Dr. Wecht, a few weekends ago, I commented in chat that there is not always a bleed when there is a skull fracture. Well no one agreed and just kept saying how right Dr. Wecht must be because he has worked on so many cases. I totally disagree with Dr. Wecht. He surely knows that a skull fracture does not kill a person right away, and sometimes there is little to no brain bleed associated with it. Other than wanting to prove his AEA theory, there is no logical reason for him to believe the blow to her head came last.

Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

Head injuries will cause the victim to vomit, which might be what was wiped off of JonBenet. Had Patsy slammed JonBenet into a marble counter, which is what I seem to remember their bath counters were made of, she would have immediately either passed out or thrown up - likely both within a few minutes. I can only imagine Patsy's horror at seeing either of these things happen, and she would have been immediately brought to her senses and wonder what the hell she had just done.

The petechiae found on different areas of and on JonBenet's eyes could have been from the force of her vomiting.

The only other expert I have ever read having the same opinion is Doberson. IMO, his opinion and a stunned pork rind wouldn't get him a cup of coffee.

What do you think? Which came first and what formed your opinion?

 

[cynic]

Who believes, as does Dr. Wecht, that the head injury came last?

During the websleuths radio show, featuring Dr. Wecht, a few weekends ago, I commented in chat that there is not always a bleed when there is a skull fracture. Well no one agreed and just kept saying how right Dr. Wecht must be because he has worked on so many cases. I totally disagree with Dr. Wecht. He surely knows that a skull fracture does not kill a person right away, and sometimes there is little to no brain bleed associated with it. Other than wanting to prove his AEA theory, there is no logical reason for him to believe the blow to her head came last.

I didn’t buy Wecht’s EA theory when I read it in “Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey,” and I don’t buy it now. That is JMO, of course, and a scenario involving strangulation followed by head trauma cannot be ruled out.
What’s unfortunate is that Wecht does not seem to even acknowledge the possibility that the head injury could have come first and I believe that diminishes his credibility
Head injuries can be remarkably unpredictable with respect to their development and effects, and the fact that there was minimal bleeding within the skull is in no way proof positive that strangulation occurred first.
Consider the following examples:

In the days leading to her death, 4-year-old Emma Thompson suffered 80 contusions, a fractured skull, a brain hemorrhage and a vaginal tear.
About 12 to 24 hours before she died, the Spring girl was hit in the abdomen by an “unknown object,” causing blunt force trauma that killed her, according to court records filed by investigators and made available on Tuesday, the same day Emma's mother, Abigail Elizabeth Young, 33, and her boyfriend, Lucas Ruric Coe, 27, made their initial appearance at a bail hearing.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6569342.html

33-year-old meth user attempted suicide using nail gun, doctors say
An Oregon man who went to a hospital complaining of a headache was found to have 12 nails embedded in his skull from a suicide attempt with a nail gun, doctors say.
The unidentified 33-year-old man was suicidal and high on methamphetamine last year when he fired the nails — up to 2 inches in length — into his head one by one
No one before is known to have survived after intentionally firing so many foreign objects into the head, according to the report, written by Dr. G. Alexander West, the neurosurgeon who oversaw the treatment of the patient.
The nails came close to major blood vessels and the brain stem but did not pierce them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12425803/

Delayed traumatic extradural hematoma is a new pathological dimension. Thirteen patients with delayed traumatic extradural hematoma were seen 70 treated cases of extradural hematomas for a frequency of 18.6%. The hematomas were insignificant or not present on the initial CT scanning. All patients had a skull fracture at the site of delayed extradural hematoma formation. Ten hematomas were surgically evacuated and three were reabsorbed spontaneously. Repeated CT scanning was performed if the patient has any new focal neurological deficits or clinical status was not improved despite of minimal extradural hematoma after head injury. Delayed extradural hematoma were classified into two groups based on the presence of hematoma in initial CT scan : delayed bleeding type(newly formed xtradural hematoma/4 cases : 5.7%) & delayed expansion type(enlargement of initial thin hematoma/9 cases : 12.6%).
http://www.komci.org/GSResult.php?DT=1&RID=1032JKNS%2F1992.21.1.49



What other experts have said about JonBenet, specifically:

JonBenet Ramsey was sexually assaulted, suffered a tremendous blow to the head and was strangled as much as an hour later, a respected forensic pathologist said Tuesday.
Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine, reviewed JonBenet's autopsy report Tuesday at the request of the Rocky Mountain News.
…

The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said.
"She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled,'' said Wright. "That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.''
He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.
The reason he's so sure, said Wright, is that details revealed about the brain injury, "the swelling, the bleeding here and there, they take a while to happen.''
And that wouldn't have happened, he said, if she was already dead.
"I think, probably, the head injury came first, because the strangulation resulted in petechial (pinpoint) hemorrhages'' in areas such as the eyelids, Kirschner said.
"I think she died when she was strangled. The cerebral hemorrhaging and bruising of the brain did occur first. But she was still alive when strangled.''
Wright noted that the presence of "birefringent (shiny) foreign material'' in JonBenet's vaginal tract could be consistent with someone penetrating her while wearing rubber gloves.
That, combined with prior disclosures that someone appeared to wipe down the body, is inconsistent with a typical child sex offender.
"It's not the typical pattern of somebody who decides they like having sex with young girls,'' said Wright.
"This looks like something different. If you're into having sex with kids, it's usually not so subtle.''
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0716jon.htm


Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding.

"We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/03lrams.html

"Dr. Spitz was joined (in Boulder for an investigation) by Tom Faure, the coroner's chief investigator, and Weinheimer (Dr. Carey Weinheimer). The group studied the cellulose substance that was found in victim's vagina and determined that it was consistent with the wood from the broken shard of the paintbrush handle used in the garroting. They also found that JonBenet had sustained a very powerful blow to the head, which, though it did not cause external bleeding, caused intracerebral bleeding that would quickly prove fatal. They could not determine if the head blow preceded that garroting with scientifc certainty, though the head blow, in all probability, had come first. Since the head wound was fully developed, this meant that the victim had survived for a period of time."
Cracking More Cases: The forensic science of solving crimes, Henry Lee, page 222

The only other expert I have ever read having the same opinion is Doberson. IMO, his opinion and a stunned pork rind wouldn't get him a cup of coffee.

LOL. You're still giving him too much credit.

 

[UKGuy]

Who believes, as does Dr. Wecht, that the head injury came last?

During the websleuths radio show, featuring Dr. Wecht, a few weekends ago, I commented in chat that there is not always a bleed when there is a skull fracture. Well no one agreed and just kept saying how right Dr. Wecht must be because he has worked on so many cases. I totally disagree with Dr. Wecht. He surely knows that a skull fracture does not kill a person right away, and sometimes there is little to no brain bleed associated with it. Other than wanting to prove his AEA theory, there is no logical reason for him to believe the blow to her head came last.

Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

Head injuries will cause the victim to vomit, which might be what was wiped off of JonBenet. Had Patsy slammed JonBenet into a marble counter, which is what I seem to remember their bath counters were made of, she would have immediately either passed out or thrown up - likely both within a few minutes. I can only imagine Patsy's horror at seeing either of these things happen, and she would have been immediately brought to her senses and wonder what the hell she had just done.

The petechiae found on different areas of and on JonBenet's eyes could have been from the force of her vomiting.

The only other expert I have ever read having the same opinion is Doberson. IMO, his opinion and a stunned pork rind wouldn't get him a cup of coffee.

What do you think? Which came first and what formed your opinion?

vlpate,
There is nothing in the autopsy to rule out that the head bash and strangulation was coterminous!

That is JonBenet may have been strangled first with the head trauma following as a consequence.



.

 

[vlpate]

vlpate,
There is nothing in the autopsy to rule out that the head bash and strangulation was coterminous!

That is JonBenet may have been strangled first with the head trauma following as a consequence.



.

Yes, as you have pointed out before, but what do you think?

 

[vlpate]

I didn’t buy Wecht’s EA theory when I read it in “Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey,” and I don’t buy it now. That is JMO, of course, and a scenario involving strangulation followed by head trauma cannot be ruled out.
What’s unfortunate is that Wecht does not seem to even acknowledge the possibility that the head injury could have come first and I believe that diminishes his credibility
Head injuries can be remarkably unpredictable with respect to their development and effects, and the fact that there was minimal bleeding within the skull is in no way proof positive that strangulation occurred first.
Consider the following examples:

In the days leading to her death, 4-year-old Emma Thompson suffered 80 contusions, a fractured skull, a brain hemorrhage and a vaginal tear.
About 12 to 24 hours before she died, the Spring girl was hit in the abdomen by an “unknown object,” causing blunt force trauma that killed her, according to court records filed by investigators and made available on Tuesday, the same day Emma's mother, Abigail Elizabeth Young, 33, and her boyfriend, Lucas Ruric Coe, 27, made their initial appearance at a bail hearing.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6569342.html

33-year-old meth user attempted suicide using nail gun, doctors say
An Oregon man who went to a hospital complaining of a headache was found to have 12 nails embedded in his skull from a suicide attempt with a nail gun, doctors say.
The unidentified 33-year-old man was suicidal and high on methamphetamine last year when he fired the nails — up to 2 inches in length — into his head one by one
No one before is known to have survived after intentionally firing so many foreign objects into the head, according to the report, written by Dr. G. Alexander West, the neurosurgeon who oversaw the treatment of the patient.
The nails came close to major blood vessels and the brain stem but did not pierce them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12425803/

Delayed traumatic extradural hematoma is a new pathological dimension. Thirteen patients with delayed traumatic extradural hematoma were seen 70 treated cases of extradural hematomas for a frequency of 18.6%. The hematomas were insignificant or not present on the initial CT scanning. All patients had a skull fracture at the site of delayed extradural hematoma formation. Ten hematomas were surgically evacuated and three were reabsorbed spontaneously. Repeated CT scanning was performed if the patient has any new focal neurological deficits or clinical status was not improved despite of minimal extradural hematoma after head injury. Delayed extradural hematoma were classified into two groups based on the presence of hematoma in initial CT scan : delayed bleeding type(newly formed xtradural hematoma/4 cases : 5.7%) & delayed expansion type(enlargement of initial thin hematoma/9 cases : 12.6%).
http://www.komci.org/GSResult.php?DT=1&RID=1032JKNS%2F1992.21.1.49



What other experts have said about JonBenet, specifically:

JonBenet Ramsey was sexually assaulted, suffered a tremendous blow to the head and was strangled as much as an hour later, a respected forensic pathologist said Tuesday.
Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine, reviewed JonBenet's autopsy report Tuesday at the request of the Rocky Mountain News.
…

The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said.
"She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled,'' said Wright. "That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.''
He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.
The reason he's so sure, said Wright, is that details revealed about the brain injury, "the swelling, the bleeding here and there, they take a while to happen.''
And that wouldn't have happened, he said, if she was already dead.
"I think, probably, the head injury came first, because the strangulation resulted in petechial (pinpoint) hemorrhages'' in areas such as the eyelids, Kirschner said.
"I think she died when she was strangled. The cerebral hemorrhaging and bruising of the brain did occur first. But she was still alive when strangled.''
Wright noted that the presence of "birefringent (shiny) foreign material'' in JonBenet's vaginal tract could be consistent with someone penetrating her while wearing rubber gloves.
That, combined with prior disclosures that someone appeared to wipe down the body, is inconsistent with a typical child sex offender.
"It's not the typical pattern of somebody who decides they like having sex with young girls,'' said Wright.
"This looks like something different. If you're into having sex with kids, it's usually not so subtle.''
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0716jon.htm


Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding.

"We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/03lrams.html

"Dr. Spitz was joined (in Boulder for an investigation) by Tom Faure, the coroner's chief investigator, and Weinheimer (Dr. Carey Weinheimer). The group studied the cellulose substance that was found in victim's vagina and determined that it was consistent with the wood from the broken shard of the paintbrush handle used in the garroting. They also found that JonBenet had sustained a very powerful blow to the head, which, though it did not cause external bleeding, caused intracerebral bleeding that would quickly prove fatal. They could not determine if the head blow preceded that garroting with scientifc certainty, though the head blow, in all probability, had come first. Since the head wound was fully developed, this meant that the victim had survived for a period of time."
Cracking More Cases: The forensic science of solving crimes, Henry Lee, page 222

LOL. You're still giving him too much credit.

Thank you.... I can't stomach stories like the first one - what in this world makes monsters like those two and way too many others. That poor baby - and she probably still wanted them to hold her and love her. Absolutely heart breaking. I know your point was to show the baby was already dying but the stomach blow finished her off.

Meyer's conclusion was strangulation associated with the skull fracture - which makes sense even given the head blow came first.

Cynic, any thoughts or knowledge about the quarter size mark below the ligature marks on JonBenet's neck? I know we used to think it was Patsy's big KMart ring John bought for her in the Bahamas...

 

[DeeDee249]

I think the head bash came first, in response to her scream. I know Wecht disagrees, and though his theory sounds logical, I feel I can't change my own theories based on what he said.
I do not think her petechiae came from vomiting. They are a well-known sign of strangulation, and I have no doubt the garrote caused them.
Her vomit-stained cheek and sleeve could certainly have resulted from her head bash. The mucus found in her nostrils and the stain on her sleeve was noted as "tan" which to me, means blood-tinged (blood turns brownish when exposed to the air).
One thing about the bathroom counters- they have never been identified as marble as far as I know, and appear to be tile in the photos.

 

[treeseeker]

I think even a child, if conscious, would struggle while being strangled. Even if Jon Benet's hands were effectively restrained, I'd expect to see bruising or abrasions at the knees, shoulders and feet from a struggle. So IMO, the head injury probably came first, and she was unconscious when the garrote was applied.

 

[vlpate]

I think the head bash came first, in response to her scream. I know Wecht disagrees, and though his theory sounds logical, I feel I can't change my own theories based on what he said.
I do not think her petechiae came from vomiting. They are a well-known sign of strangulation, and I have no doubt the garrote caused them.
Her vomit-stained cheek and sleeve could certainly have resulted from her head bash. The mucus found in her nostrils and the stain on her sleeve was noted as "tan" which to me, means blood-tinged (blood turns brownish when exposed to the air).
One thing about the bathroom counters- they have never been identified as marble as far as I know, and appear to be tile in the photos.

Maybe I'm thinking of Patsy's bathroom. It's been a while on that. I know Jameson took pictures of JonBenet's bathroom after the investigation and after it was put back together - at that time the counter was a simple white formica - which I don't think was the original counter. LE practically gutted that bathroom for evidence.

As for the petechia and vomiting, it is also a common sign:
"The most common cause of petechiae is through physical trauma such as a hard bout of coughing, vomiting or crying, which can result in facial petechiae, especially around the eyes." (Wikipedia)

It is a common belief in the medical field that "Petechiae do not prove strangulation and their absence does not disprove it; they are simply a marker of increased cephalic venous pressure."
http://www.examiner.com/abusive-rel...ation-a-lethal-form-of-interpersonal-violence

As for the signs of strangulation, this is a very informative and interesting article.

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=104&Itemid=121

Just a note on the above article:
"The presence of a complex type of knotting in the cord, e.g., the presence of reef knot, suggests homicidal strangulation. Sometimes homicidal strangulation is feigned by and individual to bring false charges against his enemy. Hysterical women sometimes feign it without any obvious motive."

I believe JonBenet was definitely strangled - how close to death she was at the time is what I have questions about. If you read the autopsy report, there are few signs of a violent strangulation... no defensive marks, her tongue was normal - her eyes were not protruding, her trachea was not filled with mucous...etc.,.

I just don't think it took much to finish her off after the head blow.

 

[cynic]

Cynic, any thoughts or knowledge about the quarter size mark below the ligature marks on JonBenet's neck? I know we used to think it was Patsy's big KMart ring John bought for her in the Bahamas...

This is more DeeDee’s area; I haven’t researched it too extensively.
I would say that triangular abrasion on JonBenet’s neck was caused by movement of the ligature as was adjusted upward either accidentally or purposefully. This would have likely occurred as it was being pulled tight.
***WARNING***AUTOPSY***PICTURES***
http://zyberzoom.com/ComparisonPhotos.html
There certainly seems to be a lower line on the neck that supports that idea.

I remembered these posts as being very helpful.

KoldKase (posts 159 - 169)
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7760&page=14

OTG
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5923772&postcount=1"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion”[/ame]

 

[DeeDee249]

This is more DeeDee’s area; I haven’t researched it too extensively.
I would say that triangular abrasion on JonBenet’s neck was caused by movement of the ligature as was adjusted upward either accidentally or purposefully. This would have likely occurred as it was being pulled tight.
***WARNING***AUTOPSY***PICTURES***
http://zyberzoom.com/ComparisonPhotos.html
There certainly seems to be a lower line on the neck that supports that idea.

I remembered these posts as being very helpful.

KoldKase (posts 159 - 169)
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7760&page=14

OTG
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion”

In looking at that photo of JB's neck, I do not see a quarter-sized mark at all. see the triangular-shaped red "abrasion" that appears both above and below the ligature. As you see in the comparison photo, there is a similar red mark in another victim that has been strangled with a scarf. This was not made by Patsy's ring, but by blood pooling under the deepest pressure point, likely at the point where the garrote (and the scarf in the other photo) twisted and pressed more deeply into the flesh.

 

[vlpate]

In looking at that photo of JB's neck, I do not see a quarter-sized mark at all. see the triangular-shaped red "abrasion" that appears both above and below the ligature. As you see in the comparison photo, there is a similar red mark in another victim that has been strangled with a scarf. This was not made by Patsy's ring, but by blood pooling under the deepest pressure point, likely at the point where the garrote (and the scarf in the other photo) twisted and pressed more deeply into the flesh.

Except she was strangled from behind, which would make the pressure point on the back of her neck from "twisting". Unless, as Dr. Spitz theorized, and as I have speculated, she was choked first by something else, from the front like the front of her turtleneck...and that quarter sized mark could be the pressure point from this first assault by Patsy.

http://mycase.in.gov/default.aspx
I remembered the "quarter like" description from this search warrant. You have to remember how small her neck is and imagine a quarter placed on it.....seems a logical measuring stick when just guessing.


I don't see "blood pooling" and an abrasion to be the same thing.

From the autopsy report, Dr. Meyer clearly calls this triangular mark an abrasion.
"... a roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored
abrasion which measures 1.5 inches in length with a maximum width
of 0.75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is
obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral.

If the turtleneck was pulled tightly around jonbenet's neck in a rage, shaking her to and fro, this would surely cause an "abrasion" at the point of pressure.

JMO since I'm no expert.

 

[Aedrys]

Except she was strangled from behind, which would make the pressure point on the back of her neck from "twisting". Unless, as Dr. Spitz theorized, and as I have speculated, she was choked first by something else, from the front like the front of her turtleneck...and that quarter sized mark could be the pressure point from this first assault by Patsy.

http://mycase.in.gov/default.aspx
I remembered the "quarter like" description from this search warrant. You have to remember how small her neck is and imagine a quarter placed on it.....seems a logical measuring stick when just guessing.


I don't see "blood pooling" and an abrasion to be the same thing.

From the autopsy report, Dr. Meyer clearly calls this triangular mark an abrasion.
"... a roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored
abrasion which measures 1.5 inches in length with a maximum width
of 0.75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is
obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral.

If the turtleneck was pulled tightly around jonbenet's neck in a rage, shaking her to and fro, this would surely cause an "abrasion" at the point of pressure.

JMO since I'm no expert.

ITA. I think a few people have also said on here that it wasn't the garrotte that was used to strangle her because of how twisted it was in her hair, or something like that. It would have pulled hair out of her skull if the garrotte had been used to strangle her. So it was probably a head wound first, then strangling with something else like a scarf, and then the garrote was put there later as staging. I think I got that right! Correct me if I'm wrong. You all are so much more knowledgeable here than me. Cynic, remind me to never get into an argument with you because you will surely win each time, LOL.

 

[Whaleshark]

well there is a deep indented furrow in JB's neck which that ligature left imprinted. That is not just staging.

there might have been two things used to strangle her, and people might disagree on exactly how the ligature and stick were used to function, but there is defintely strangulation from that ligature. if it was fake there would be no deep furrow left in her neck from it. you can see it in the autopsy pictures after the rope/ligature is removed.