How Many Steps to Innocence??

[eileenhawkeye]

So if I'm going to a 3d world country and end up with no money for the flight ticket I need to come back,I just call the Boulder DA,claim I killed JB and voila,I get a first class flight and free champaign? :waitasec:

yes,silly,silly

still.............isn't this what happened here?

But didn't JMK send emails to Michael Tracey for FIVE years before he was finally arrested? I don't think he confessed because he wanted to get out of Thailand--I think he is just obsessed with JBR and wanted to insert himself in her case.

 

[UKGuy]

But didn't JMK send emails to Michael Tracey for FIVE years before he was finally arrested? I don't think he confessed because he wanted to get out of Thailand--I think he is just obsessed with JBR and wanted to insert himself in her case.

eileenhawkeye,
Also who knows what inside info did Tracy pass onto JMK, thus making a case against him. John Ramsey was kept informed of developments. The JMK saga was a carefully arranged sting, all done to keep the intruder agenda alive and kicking!


.

 

[Ames]

He definately is a nutcase and when the news first came out i thought they had finally caught the killer but even JR didnt seem too excited.
I think he falls under the category of crazy who likes to confess to famous murders? The prob was no one could place him in Boulder on that night.

Right, and his wife at the time (or girlfriend...or whatever she was) had pictures of him with HER on Christmas 96. Unless he figured out a way to be in two places at once....which I highly doubt, because I have never heard of anyone being able to do that before.

 

[Ames]

Don't be too surprised when you find out things YOU KNOW, you don't really know at all.

Funny. The same can be said for you.

 

[madeleine]

eileenhawkeye,
Also who knows what inside info did Tracy pass onto JMK, thus making a case against him.

Yep,it always sounded to me like Tracey's coaching him,yuk.He even seemed to enjoy it,even more yuk.Things people do "in the name of justice",eh.......

 

[Agatha_C]

Snipped from Murri:

"You are so fond of Occams Razor, until it looks like shaving too close to RDI. Some nutcase is found who reckons he did it and you can't wait to see him walk, cause it'd interfere with your linching of the Rs. This case is in such lousy shape because of lousy policework, caused by an incorrect assumption that the parents were the murderers." (BBM)
Personally I would have been thrilled if he were guilty: case solved, parents incapable of doing these things to their daughter, one less megaperv on the streets.

"Everyone here is blind to anything they don't believe..."
Making all-encompassing, generalized assumptions about people is a dangerous game. I personally am not blind. I've sat here and read and considered even the most far-out notions presented (although the notion of the feds and alter beauty queens did have me looking around for the Candid Camera).

Perhaps if some IDI threw less stones and more facts that bolstered up their take on things, their theories would get more credence.

Eleven, wrote this amazing post and i think it says it best......


Eleven>>>> Generally speaking, this case is polarizing no matter what side of the fence one sits on. I have no doubt that peoples (including mine) prior/past experiences in our childhoods: the good, the great, the bad & the horrific, lays the groundwork for a steadfast opinion for each of us.

 

[MomofBoys]

I'm not someone who has ever been focused on this case, but my somewhat objective opinion based on the evidence is that a RDI. I mainly lurk here because I find the back-and-forth really interesting. People are so knowledgeable and avid when it comes to this case.

All that said, I don't think the writing styles of Kerr and the ransom note are particularly close. I write my 'a's like that. The angle is wrong. The connectors don't match. Those are two things that remain fairly consistent in terms of penmanship. If someone was trying to match the writing, they did a poor job. If they didn't, the similarities that are there are probably the result of a coincidence.

Put that comparison up against the PR writing sample and I'd point my finger at hers every time. Much more compelling.

 

[MurriFlower]

So if I'm going to a 3d world country and end up with no money for the flight ticket I need to come back,I just call the Boulder DA,claim I killed JB and voila,I get a first class flight and free champaign? :waitasec:

yes,silly,silly

still.............isn't this what happened here?

Yes, I think this is what RDI wants everyone to believe. The fact is he was having email correspondence for FOUR YEARS before he finally had telephone conversations and they were able to trace him the Thailand. They then set up surveillance on him to try to work out if he was involved. What they found is that he was teaching young children and that he was targeting a little girl, in a chillingly similar way to what he described with JBR. He was arrested on charges that were still current in the USA (and the reason he fled originally) and extradited basically to stop him causing harm in Thailand (assuming he actually was the murderer).

I find it quite alarming that RDI blames the DA and accuse her of acting incorrectly, when in fact I think her actions were very brave to take the chance that she did. HAD he been the killer, she would have been praised as a HERO.

 

[MurriFlower]

Wasn't ML's excuse (for bringing him back to the US) that he KNEW stuff about the murder that was never made public?Still confused about that.After his DNA didn't match and after they couldn't place him in Boulder....what happened with all the stuff he "knew"??Wasn't this the reason they brought him back?Cause anyone can claim he/she killed JB,why was HE so special?You gotta have something on him in order to put him on a plane in cuffs,right?Or was this another silly mistake?

Not saying he did it,I just want an explanation for what ML did.One that makes sense.

It's either he knew nothing new...but then why bring him back,on what grounds....

Or he knew something......and if so,what and from whom?And why didn't we hear about it.

Yeah, one day when I get time, I'll read all the emails and listen to all the telephone conversations. This went on for years maddy before he was arrested, it wasn't done publicly, he was using Tracey like a conduit to try to talk to the parents I think from what I have so far read/heard. He told of other previous incidents with girls and I think if you had similar contact from someone who 'confessed' to a murder, you would feel that you had to inform the authorities too, I certainly would. Much of what he says is rambling and it focuses on his feelings. Tracey just lets him tell his story and tries to get information from him. He knows if he passes judgement then he would lose his confidence.

 

[MurriFlower]

I'm not someone who has ever been focused on this case, but my somewhat objective opinion based on the evidence is that a RDI. I mainly lurk here because I find the back-and-forth really interesting. People are so knowledgeable and avid when it comes to this case.

All that said, I don't think the writing styles of Kerr and the ransom note are particularly close. I write my 'a's like that. The angle is wrong. The connectors don't match. Those are two things that remain fairly consistent in terms of penmanship. If someone was trying to match the writing, they did a poor job. If they didn't, the similarities that are there are probably the result of a coincidence.

There was no suggestion by Karr that he was trying to mimic PR's writing, if he did in fact write the RN. He actually said that he was ashamed of the penmanship, because he was writing it in the dark. Remember, the sample from which those few similarities were taken was written years before the murder.

Put that comparison up against the PR writing sample and I'd point my finger at hers every time. Much more compelling.

I'm sure someone from RDI will be able to do that.

 

[MurriFlower]

But didn't JMK send emails to Michael Tracey for FIVE years before he was finally arrested? I don't think he confessed because he wanted to get out of Thailand--I think he is just obsessed with JBR and wanted to insert himself in her case.

Four or five, plus numerous phone calls, which is how they eventually tracked him down.

Before we criticise JMK for his obsession with JBR, we should all go to the nearest mirror and have a good stare at ourselves LOL.

 

[MurriFlower]

Re JMK's handwriting

yes it does look similar to the one in the RN

so does Chris W's

so does PR's

so does JR's


IMO (((shrug)))

that's my problem with handwriting analysis and handwriting "experts"

Absolutely AND Pete Peterson thought McSanta's was a match. It's not a very precise science is it? On the other hand, DNA analysis doesn't leave as much margin for error.

 

[SunnieRN]

There was no suggestion by Karr that he was trying to mimic PR's writing, if he did in fact write the RN. He actually said that he was ashamed of the penmanship, because he was writing it in the dark. Remember, the sample from which those few similarities were taken was written years before the murder.



I'm sure someone from RDI will be able to do that.

So, if he wrote the note in the dark, what are all the reports of flickering/moving light in the R's house that night, to be attributed to?

HOTYH, what do you think of JMK and his 'guilt'?

 

[MurriFlower]

So, if he wrote the note in the dark, what are all the reports of flickering/moving light in the R's house that night, to be attributed to?

HOTYH, what do you think of JMK and his 'guilt'?

You wouldn't need to use a flashlight unless it was dark Sunnie.

 

[Agatha_C]

It requires a special talent to write that well in the dark. The words and sentences all maintained space between them, no converging of lines or words. The indention was on point. No way that note was written in dark.

Sunni's right, all that flickering light and he chose to write in the dark? It make no sense. But then, non RDI, have a way of making a silk purse out of a sows ear.

 

[MurriFlower]

It requires a special talent to write that well in the dark. The words and sentences all maintained space between them, no converging of lines or words. The indention was on point. No way that note was written in dark.

Sunni's right, all that flickering light and he chose to write in the dark? It make no sense. But then, non RDI, have a way of making a silk purse out of a sows ear.

I expect when he said 'in the dark' he meant by flashlight. That seems to me to be common sense, but unfortunately, it isn't all that common on this forum! Now, clever as that might seem to you, there are quite a few RDI who believe the Rs used the flashlight instead of turning on the lights, so I guess RDI also believe PR wrote the RN by flashlight.

 

[Agatha_C]

Murri,

I think my misunderstanding came from the term "in the dark", as a flashlight wouldn't be the dark, "hence" the military calling them torches. So, now it makes much more sense PR could have written the RN by flashlight just as easily as JMK. Now where does that leave us? With one still under the umbrella and the other out in the rain.

“Truth is the torch that gleams through the fog without dispelling it.”

 

[joeskidbeck]

Personally, I remember very well the morning I turned on the TV to CNN and they were reporting that they had found JonBenet's murderer and had him on the way from Thailand. As an avid RDI, believe me I found it hard to believe and then all the other information started coming out (including JR's statement) and I was very depressed.
So, IDIs, think what you may, I do not want the Ramseys to be guilty, but I fear they are.

 

[SunnieRN]

You wouldn't need to use a flashlight unless it was dark Sunnie.

Not sure what part of my post that you didn't understand to make you post this line?

I expect when he said 'in the dark' he meant by flashlight. That seems to me to be common sense, but unfortunately, it isn't all that common on this forum! Now, clever as that might seem to you, there are quite a few RDI who believe the Rs used the flashlight instead of turning on the lights, so I guess RDI also believe PR wrote the RN by flashlight.

When you talk about someone 'writing in the dark', someone asks you to explain the flickering lights, you ask them why they don't understand the fact that 'in the dark means using a flashlight? Doh. That is two different things. Dark va light by flashlight.

My gosh MF, think about what you have posted prior to accusing other people on the forum about not using common sense please.

 

[cynic]

Yes, I think this is what RDI wants everyone to believe.

This is not what RDI wants everyone to believe. The truth is that there was no legitimate reason, whatsoever, for JMK to be brought back to the USA.
If you read his confession, the arrest warrant, and the transcript of ML's news conference relating to Karr, you will see that it was a baseless arrest.

The fact is he was having email correspondence for FOUR YEARS before he finally had telephone conversations and they were able to trace him the Thailand. They then set up surveillance on him to try to work out if he was involved. What they found is that he was teaching young children and that he was targeting a little girl, in a chillingly similar way to what he described with JBR.

What he described with JBR was a pack of lies.
What he was doing in Thailand had nothing at all to do with JBR.

He was arrested on charges that were still current in the USA (and the reason he fled originally) and extradited basically to stop him causing harm in Thailand (assuming he actually was the murderer).

No, there were outstanding misdemeanor charges (insufficient for extradition,) but the US arrest warrant charged him with murder, kidnapping and sexual assault of a child (JBR.)

I find it quite alarming that RDI blames the DA and accuse her of acting incorrectly,

Pretty much everyone did, she was eviscerated in the press, and rightly so.
The little girl's memory and the loved ones who survive her deserve knowing and peace, not this.
That the first time John Mark Karr ever steps foot in Boulder County will be the day Mary Lacy flies him in, well, that is simply sad and embarrassing. Not funny at all.
Rocky Mountain News 8/19/06, Bill Johnson
Facing a whirlwind of criticism since dropping the case after DNA testing eliminated Karr as a suspect…
Bringing Karr from Thailand to Los Angeles and then to Boulder has been widely criticized - even by the governor…
She said she has personally taken angry phone calls from Boulder County citizens and returned the call of a Longmont man who said she should resign and be "tarred and feathered and run out of town."
http://www.denverpost.com/jonbenet/ci_4258075
Gov. Bill Owens has already called for her resignation for having "wasted thousands of taxpayer dollars" on "the most extravagant and expensive DNA test in Colorado history."
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4257909

when in fact I think her actions were very brave to take the chance that she did. HAD he been the killer, she would have been praised as a HERO.

There is nothing brave or heroic about Lacy steadfastly working toward her longstanding goal of exonerating the Ramseys at all cost.

The following are excerpts from Lacy’s news conference:

Mary Lacy: “I want to make it absolutely clear up front that the decisions were mine, the responsibility is mine and I should be held accountable for all decisions in this case.”
…
Mary Lacy: We took surreptitious DNA on multiple occasions. Immediately upon locating this person - who went to mailboxes to pick up a package that we sent to him., two different officers took DNA off of the bicycle that he rode back. On a separate occasion, they obtained a cup that he used to drink from and a tissue or wipe that he used to wipe his hands. The bottom line is that after we did that, our expert - and we put a great deal of respect in our expert from the Denver lab - said that the sample in the underwear of the victim was a mixed sample and that we do not want to compare a mixed sample with a mixed sample. We need a pristine sample.
…
Reporter: So bottom line, you had no evidence when he stepped off the plane in Boulder? You had absolutely no evidence other than his bizarre e-mails which you agree that… a person could have concocted. That’s the only thing you had that would place him in this crime scene.. In other words, you had nothing… essentially - other than his statements?
Mary Lacy: We had probable cause to arrest him based on our having tested other statements within the e-mails and the telephone calls. Which is typically how we test credibility in someone - are they prone to lying about other things in their lives? Because if they’re lying about other things, they’re probably lying about this too.
Carol McKinley: So what was different about this guy - as opposed to some of the other guys whom we know you seriously looked at in the past nine and a half years. What was so different about this guy and why was the arrest made on him and not the others?
…
Mary Lacy: Well the difficulty with this person is that.. Uh.. Most of the time when you look at what a person tells you they committed the crime and here’s how they did it, you can discount it almost immediately. Uhm… it’s not just that it’s bizarre but there are factors in it where you can say “this person is just dead wrong”. And most of the time that happens - I’d say 95% of the time. Occasionally someone contacts us who appears to be a little more serious. In this case, because he believed it himself and continues to believe, he had all of the emotional .. Uhm… import that you would have when… Did anyone have an opportunity to listen to the telephone calls of the 15th July and the 22nd of July? The man is sobbing as he’s telling his story. He can’t talk, he goes away from the phone, he comes back. He has the psychopathy, the background that you would expect or look for in a person who’s committed a crime of this nature. This was an extremely violent crime. So when you combine the psychopathy and his statements and his emotional import and his knowledge of the crime and his knowledge of the family. We spent time with John and Patsy Ramsey and something that John Ramsey said to me was that… and he read the e-mails - had read them previously, He said “This person has personal knowledge of these family members. His description of the Paugh women is right on”. He said “I don’t know how you would know that, you wouldn’t see it from the outside.”. he said “His description of JonBenet and Burke and how they related to each other …“. he said “It’s dead on. He knows….”. So John’s take on it was “you need to pay attention to this” and this was back in May of this year.
…
Man: Would you do it all again?
Mary Lacy: You know, I think that we felt that we could not ignore this, we had to follow it, we also had an issue that we haven’t talked about is that there was a real public safety concern here directed at a particular child and a person who was expressing feelings toward that child the same as the feelings he felt towards the dead child and I have to tell you that was a huge factor in what…how this occurred in this particular case.
Mary Lacy Press Conference Re: John Mark Karr, 08/29/06

To recap, ML’s reasons for bringing JMK back to the USA:

• They needed a “pristine” sample of his DNA. FALSE

DR. LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC EXAMINER: Well, like many other people I'm somewhat shocked but I'm not shocked that he was let off the hook. I'm shocked that apparently the D.A. Mary Lacy did not have anything of any substance that connected him to the victim or the crime scene.
She was gambling and I hate to use the word bungling but the case was bungled from the beginning, as we all know. The crime scene wasn't handled properly and, again here, you know, I think they really should have waited until they had some kind of physical evidence before they arrested this individual.
And I don't buy it. I don't buy that they couldn't take surreptitious DNA. It's done many times here in the states. People get convicted on that basis. I don't buy it.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/28/lkl.01.html

• Could not find evidence of untruthfulness in his correspondence with Tracey. FALSE

How could ML say this nonsense with a straight face? Oh wait a minute, I forgot, because she’s ML.
Seriously, if she cannot see “there are factors in it where you can say “this person is just dead wrong” then she is quite simply blind.
Just two examples of errors which I noted previously:
“Karr said he waited until he believed all occupants of the home were asleep then entered into JonBenets bedroom obtained her from her bed as she was sleeping and carried the sleeping child down a stairwell into a basement level room. Within the room JonBenet was placed on his lap and he spoke with her and stroked her hair.”
“Karr added he placed underwear or "knickers" onto JonBenet that he brought with him. The underwear brought by Karr was several sizes too large for JonBenet.”
http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/newworld/johnkarr.pdf

• John Ramsey said, “You need to pay attention to this”

Taking advice from a primary suspect in a murder case is ridiculous.

• He was “grooming” a girl in Thailand.

Karr in Thailand was Thailand’s problem. Authorities could have been tipped off and I’m certain that a Thai prison would have done wonders for Karr.

To conclude, they flew JMK back to the USA, first class, when there was no physical evidence connecting him to the crime and with no evidence that he was ever in Boulder, much less in the Ramsey home. This is in addition to a "confession" that was riddled with inaccuracies.