I can't find a hole in this theory...

[LinasK]

Wouldn't a cop be totally unmoved by sympathy and emotions and consider the killer to be the one who strangled? I sure do and think it would be very prosecutable since it is so heinous. If only it were proveable and anyone would try.

Except that Lou Smit got together and prayed with the Ramsey's and that's where his judgement got clouded. When have you ever heard of LE doing that??? They are supposed to be unmoved by sympathy and emotions, but even in Jaycee Dugard's case the parole officers who came to check on Phillip Garrido at his house were snowed over by him on more than one occasion...

 

[LinasK]

SyraKelly,
Yes, although JR's fibers look like a red flag, why would he use his own shirt on such a sensitive region of JonBenet's body, that definitely does not make sense?

It should also mean his shirt must have been destroyed at some point, since as evidence its lethal.

And how did John's shirt get to the basement so quickly, if he was ignorant, it should be lying about somewhere in his bedroom?


.

.

Assuming JB is already dead when she is wiped down, it's not going to matter how sensitive of an area it is, besides whoever molested her had no concern for JB's comfort, only that her stager dressed her in a Barbie nightgown and drew a red heart in her palm...
I think it's more likely John used his own shirt he was wearing because it was handy than Patsy running upstairs and choosing a shirt of John's to wipe her with, and if so, why would she choose a wool one???

 

[LinasK]

Regardless of what actually happened and who did what, when it comes to sexual molestation, the only mature male in the home is by far the most likely suspect as far as the justice system is concerned. When we combine this with all the excellent evidence Kolar has revealed, demolishing any possible intruder theory, then we see very clearly that John Ramsey should, at the very least, be brought before a Grand Jury. The jury would then decide whether to indict him for the sexual molestation of a minor, and/or murder one.

This is the ONLY possible path to a conviction, and also the only possible path if we want to learn what actually happened. Since there is no direct evidence linking Burke to the crime, and there IS direct evidence linking John (his obvious lies about breaking the window at an earlier time, which tell us that he must have broken it the night of the crime), I see no point in going after Burke, who couldn't be indicted anyhow.

Once compelled to testify before a Grand Jury, John would have no choice but to either insist that an intruder was present, or fess up, confess to his complicity, and offer his version of what happened the night of the murder. If Burke is the one who killed JonBenet, then this is our only chance of learning about that. And if John is the one who killed her, and Burke is innocent, then if John wanted to claim he was only covering for Burke, the burden of proof would be on him. And of course Burke could be called to the stand and it would be very interesting to learn what he would say to such an accusation.

So. If you really want to learn the truth and see justice done, regardless of who your favorite perp is, you should be focusing your attention on John, NOT Burke, NOT Patsy.

Exactly, the simplest explanation is the best: Occam's Razor, or if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. It's far more likely John used his own shirt that he was wearing to wipe JB down, than Patsy or Burke grabbing John's shirt from the laundry chute.

 

[Whaleshark]

I've wondered if there was some kind of connection between the phrases, 'stray dog', and 'fat cat'. because there was no reason, whatsoever, to add the stray dog reference. Would a kidnapper really kill a 6 yr old, because her father talked to a stray dog? No. Does 'stray dog', mean something else in certain circles? I'd guess a 'stray dog' could be a euphemism for a poor, unimportant person, as opposed to a 'fat cat', (rich, important person), but IDK. Some of us were discussing JB's little dog the other day, so the writer might have been thinking about that dog? Also, I understand what We mean by the phrase, it means 'don't talk', but a foreign faction surely wouldn't know that phrase. So, I was wondering about other meanings or connections, because the use of 'stray dog' and 'fat cat', struck me as very odd.

No, just trying to sound like how a kidnapper would sound based on what they saw from that kind of movie -- the stray dog comment is supposed to sound like the kidnapper in the Dirty Harry movie who says:

"If I catch you talking to anybody, I don't care if it's a Pekingese pissing against a lamp post, the girl dies".....

 

[LinasK]

Yeah, me too. He can be ambiguous with the public but I bet his petition was/will be unambiguous and of forensic quality.

So glad to see you and Solace posting again. Now if we could get Jayelles posting again.

And KoldKase. Where did Super Dave go???

 

[LinasK]

I didn't know KoldKase wasn't posting anymore. I thought maybe he/she was on vacation or something.

She got offended by something Chrishope posted a couple of pages back and left...

 

[LinasK]

Like you, I'm not sure that JB was cared for. If somebody had a show of love, wouldn't he have removed the garotte? If the plan was to dump the body, leaving the garotte seems even more heinous.The only thing that points to care, IMO, is the blanket, and it could have been used for another reason. And didn't it have a nightgown stuck to it? What it sounds like, is somebody pulled the blanket out of the dryer, and didn't notice the gown, because it was dark and the flashlight, didn't illuminate very well. I remember PR saying she kep her personal medical supplies in and opened bathroom drawer, ( in JAR's room, I think). I wonder if her alcohol swabs were used, to clean JB.

I've gathered from watching FBI profiler Dayle Hinman that the types of behaviors exhibited by dressing JB in the Barbie nightgown, the blanket, and drawing the red heart in her palm are indicative of caring/remorse.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I've gathered from watching FBI profiler Dayle Hinman that the types of behaviors exhibited by dressing JB in the Barbie nightgown, the blanket, and drawing the red heart in her palm are indicative of caring/remorse.

JBR wasn't dressed in Barbie nightgown. This nightgown was PLACED together with her doll INSIDE of the blanket in which her body was wraped....and yes, to me, it's indication of caring/remorse.

 

[BOESP]

They used the wrong profiler- should've used Dayle Hinman- she would've discovered which Ramsey(s) it was!!!:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

They should have used Roy Hazelwood but then Team Ramsey might not have liked his findings.

 

[DeeDee249]

Glad you jumped in. I didn't intend to make it a closed question. :seeya:

Linda Hoffman-Pugh, who testified before the Grand Jury, stated later that in her opinion the GJ was going to indict Patsy. Also, even though this is a contradiction to what I just said, knowing who testified before the GJ and not knowing how Hunter charged the jury, I would question the the use of the GJ as providing evidence contrary to Thomas's opinion. I believe I read somewhere that Thomas couldn't get a foot in the door to testify in the GJ but Lou Smit did testify - that is lopsided in my opinion. I think I also read somewhere that Patsy and perhaps John both believed they'd be carted off to jail after the GJ met.

The DNA analysis, unless there is more to it than the public knows, is pretty useless in forming an opinion in my book. It could belong to anyone.

So, be my devil's advocate because I can't see the GJ or DNA changing things all that much.

I think the DNA tests done on samples were very important in that they at least could rule our all the people the Rs tried to implicate. It is the DNA found on her clothing that is meaningless at this point. And until a name is attached to it, it will continue to be worthless to the case.

 

[LinasK]

I've gathered from watching FBI profiler Dayle Hinman that the types of behaviors exhibited by dressing JB in the Barbie nightgown, the blanket, and drawing the red heart in her palm are indicative of caring/remorse.

She's also indicated that when a victim is covered up with a bedspread, it indicates an "undoing" of the crime, or remorse/not wanting to face their victim. So they commit the crime, but feel guilty afterward...

 

[txsvicki]

I didn't know the doll was found inside the blanket. According to john her face wasn't covered. It seemed like whoever did the very last staging just had her looking like she was taken out of her bed asleep.

 

[dodie20]

I've gathered from watching FBI profiler Dayle Hinman that the types of behaviors exhibited by dressing JB in the Barbie nightgown, the blanket, and drawing the red heart in her palm are indicative of caring/remorse.

I can understand this, if it was all done after the murder, as a part of undoing, but we don't know when or why these things were done. My problem with the caring scenario, is IMO, if the person felt remorse, why didn't he remove the garotte and tape? Why leave her arms in such an awkward position? I saw a show about a murdering husband/wife, and in 1 instance, the wife gave a victim, (a young girl), a teddy bear to comfort her on her 'way out'. So, in some instances, the 'caring' is done in advance, with the killer knowing full well, what is about to happen. I also saw another show, where a man witnessed his friend kill a woman, and the killer talked very soothingly, while incouraging the victim to do 'what comes natural'...which was die! Sometimes in JB's case, I think remorse was shown, but at other times, I'm not so sure. moo

 

[BOESP]

I can understand this, if it was all done after the murder, as a part of undoing, but we don't know when or why these things were done. My problem with the caring scenario, is IMO, if the person felt remorse, why didn't he remove the garotte and tape? Why leave her arms in such an awkward position? I saw a show about a murdering husband/wife, and in 1 instance, the wife gave a victim, (a young girl), a teddy bear to comfort her on her 'way out'. So, in some instances, the 'caring' is done in advance, with the killer knowing full well, what is about to happen. I also saw another show, where a man witnessed his friend kill a woman, and the killer talked very soothingly, while incouraging the victim to do 'what comes natural'...which was die! Sometimes in JB's case, I think remorse was shown, but at other times, I'm not so sure. moo

I am speculating, but if the ligature and tape were removed as a part of the undoing then a very suggestive portion of the staging would have been removed. It had to look like a monster Intruder did the deed. They did not want to literally undo the staging they believed would point away from the actual killer(s); they just wanted to to do what he/she/they could do to show love and affection for a dead little girl who died at the hands of someone who in their own way loved her. It is a psychological undoing but the desire to divert attention away from the real offender was greater. :moo:

A perverted child molester would have cared less if she was wrapped in blanket, washed, clothed, dirty, etc.

As for the awkward angle of the arms, I am not clear on exactly how they were laid out except the printed word says her arms were more or less straight-up when JOB Ramsey carried her little cold, dead body up the basement stairs.

 

[BOESP]

I've gathered from watching FBI profiler Dayle Hinman that the types of behaviors exhibited by dressing JB in the Barbie nightgown, the blanket, and drawing the red heart in her palm are indicative of caring/remorse.

You know LinasK, that little red heart drawn in JonBenet's hand is one of the few things I think Patsy was honest and sincere about. Patsy commented (paraphrased) "That's a pretty good little heart you know." At one time that portion of her interview was on Internet video but it was removed years ago. Patsy was sincere when she said that. Her depo or interview transcripts are probably still at the http://www.acandyrose.com website.

I think JonBenet drew the heart or at least her little hand guided the pen.

 

[txsvicki]

Until a coroner or medical expert proves differently and we learn all the secrets and info, i will believe that one or both parents did the whole scenario, that jonbenet was killed not because she appeared dead but because the injury was serious, or that B. Did it all up until the note writing. No woman that got herself cut from stem to stern and went through experimental treatment to live should just think her child dead. I'd also be willing to bet that if b. Did it he did not receive proper psychological treatment before or after. They wouldn't risk it afterward and if he'd done it before and been in sexual disorder treatment they should not have worried about being accused. They could have gotten him the best attorneys and the best treatment.

 

[dodie20]

Until a coroner or medical expert proves differently and we learn all the secrets and info, i will believe that one or both parents did the whole scenario, that jonbenet was killed not because she appeared dead but because the injury was serious, or that B. Did it all up until the note writing. No woman that got herself cut from stem to stern and went through experimental treatment to live should just think her child dead. I'd also be willing to bet that if b. Did it he did not receive proper psychological treatment before or after. They wouldn't risk it afterward and if he'd done it before and been in sexual disorder treatment they should not have worried about being accused. They could have gotten him the best attorneys and the best treatment.

If PR, for instance, bashed JB, it's highly possible that she thought the blow killed her...especially if she heard the skull crack, and JB dropped to the floor. After she wrote the note, she could have staged an intruder, and conjured up what she thought a psycho, pervert might do. She might not have known the strangulation killed her, until after the autopsy. IDK, but sometimes I think I tend to give too much benefit of the doubt, and look for scenarios, which make the killer less cold hearted. The crime scene doesn't seem consistent, and it doesn't come across as 1 crime. It's almost like several different crimes...the rage and bash...the ransom note staging...premeditated strangulation...IMO, it flows in a more logical sequence, if the bash was thought to have caused death, and everything else was staging. If a mother cracked her daughter's skull and heard it, wouldn't her rage immediately disappear? I can't imagine any decent mother continuing to abuse her daughter, especially to the point of killing her twice, so to speak. IMO, even a bad, conniving mother, would seek medical help and then make up a lie. And a horrible, unloving mother might let her die of the head wound, but I can't imagine ANY kind of mother, finishing her off...so she could what? get the show on the road? No, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. moo

 

[DeeDee249]

You know LinasK, that little red heart drawn in JonBenet's hand is one of the few things I think Patsy was honest and sincere about. Patsy commented (paraphrased) "That's a pretty good little heart you know." At one time that portion of her interview was on Internet video but it was removed years ago. Patsy was sincere when she said that. Her depo or interview transcripts are probably still at the http://www.acandyrose.com website.

I think JonBenet drew the heart or at least her little hand guided the pen.

Patsy wasn't completely truthful about that heart. At first, she claimed to never have seen it- because she obviously couldn't admit that she actually saw the body. But when she mentioned the heart, she blew her cover- it was apparent that she HAD seen it. Yet she denied ever seeing her body until she threw herself on top of it after JR had been brought up. But by the time Patsy entered the room, JB was covered with an afghan and a sweatshirt, so she couldn't have seen it then.
The truth is- Patsy saw that heart that night. We don't know whether JB drew it herself or someone else drew it on her. Little girls do stuff like that and she and her friend DW, FW's daughter, may have done it. If JB came home with a little heart drawn on her hand, it wouldn't be suspicious to the average mom. So why deny having seen it? Again- the answer has to be that the Rs decided early on to say (or were TOLD to say) that JB fell asleep in the car and never woke up after they got home and they never saw her alive again.
I do recall reading LONG ago that Patsy and JB used to draw hearts in each other's hands and it meant "my heart is in your hands" - does any one else recall this? I can't have dreamed it up, I had to have read it somewhere long ago.

 

[Charterhouse]

I have read a lot of this case; but, do not know near as much as all of you. I don't know if this was mentioned but a friend of mine said that victims of sexual abuse draw hearts on their hands to let others that have been abused, know that they are one of them.

I have no idea if this is true. I am just wondering if anyone has heard of this before.

 

[LinasK]

Patsy wasn't completely truthful about that heart. At first, she claimed to never have seen it- because she obviously couldn't admit that she actually saw the body. But when she mentioned the heart, she blew her cover- it was apparent that she HAD seen it. Yet she denied ever seeing her body until she threw herself on top of it after JR had been brought up. But by the time Patsy entered the room, JB was covered with an afghan and a sweatshirt, so she couldn't have seen it then.
The truth is- Patsy saw that heart that night. We don't know whether JB drew it herself or someone else drew it on her. Little girls do stuff like that and she and her friend DW, FW's daughter, may have done it. If JB came home with a little heart drawn on her hand, it wouldn't be suspicious to the average mom. So why deny having seen it? Again- the answer has to be that the Rs decided early on to say (or were TOLD to say) that JB fell asleep in the car and never woke up after they got home and they never saw her alive again.
I do recall reading LONG ago that Patsy and JB used to draw hearts in each other's hands and it meant "my heart is in your hands" - does any one else recall this? I can't have dreamed it up, I had to have read it somewhere long ago.

Yes, that's why I was under the impression that Patsy drew it.