I can't find a hole in this theory...

[midwest mama]

My take on the above has always been that Patsy slipped up and reported seeing the heart on JonBenet's hand "the next morning," meaning the morning of the 26th. When she realized she had admitted seeing it before JonBenet was brought up from the basement she knew she was in trouble so she back-tracked by having Ramnesia.

Agreed. Cannot let Patsy off the hook for being involved in the crime against JB. I think she knew who the killer was.

 

[rashomon]

ILikeToBendPages,
I doubt this, LEA would have found the shirt, not to say they missed it, but they requested the clothing the R's wore to the White's.

But it took LE years before they finally received additional clothing from the Ramseys (John's black wool shirt being among these items).

This delay in fiber testing explains why Steve Thomas (at the time when he was still actively involved in the investigation) did not yet know about the fibers from John's shirt that had ben fond in JonBenet's the size 12 underwear. It was as late as in the year 2000 (!) when Levin finally confronted John with theis fiber evidence.
I wonder whether think Steve Thomas would still have given John Ramsey a pass if he had known about these fibers.

If the Ramseys had been been taken to the police station immediately after the JB's body had been found, if they had been questioned separately right then and there, and if if the crucial clothing items had been collected by the police on the spot, we probably would not not be discussing his case now.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
Why so, if JonBenet was cleaned up, so to remove evidence of any sexual assault?

Maybe the blood was wiped off to prevent it from getting on the basement carpet (right next to where Patsy's paintbrush tote was), since this was the location where the whole 'garrote'/ligature' staging took place. I can imagine that the Ramseys did not want JonBenet's body to be found in exactly the same spot where they had staged the scene.

Another possible scenario: Patsy abruptly stopped because the bleeding of the genital wound made her realize that JonBenet was not yet dead. The wiping might have been done on impulse, as if to 'undo' her act.
But then her sense of 'self-preservation' prevailed again and she proceeded to tie the neck ligature.
If Patsy knew JonBenet was not yet dead when the neck ligature was tied around her neck, the strangulation would be a first degree murder.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe the blood was wiped off to prevent it from getting on the basement carpet (right next to where Patsy's paintbrush tote was), since this was the location where the whole 'garrote'/ligature' staging took place. I can imagine that the Ramseys did not want JonBenet's body to be found in exactly the same spot where they had staged the scene.

Another possible scenario: Patsy abruptly stopped because the bleeding of the genital wound made her realize that JonBenet was not yet dead. The wiping might have been done on impulse, as if to 'undo' her act.
But then her sense of 'self-preservation' prevailed again and she proceeded to tie the neck ligature.
If Patsy knew JonBenet was not yet dead when the neck ligature was tied around her neck, the strangulation would be a first degree murder.

rashomon,

Maybe the blood was wiped off to prevent it from getting on the basement carpet

mmm, could be, assuming JonBenet was not lying on the white blanket, which was bloodstained I believe, as was the pink barbie nightgown, anyone see an association here, or am I conflating evidence?

Another possible scenario: Patsy abruptly stopped because the bleeding of the genital wound made her realize that JonBenet was not yet dead.

Maybe, but not with the shirt off John's back, LOL?

How about this: John used his shirt to cleanup JonBenet because he had already removed it, it was lying nearby, could be he was in his bedroom?

.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

mmm, could be, assuming JonBenet was not lying on the white blanket, which was bloodstained I believe, as was the pink barbie nightgown, anyone see an association here, or am I conflating evidence?

Does anyone have a link to a source where it says that the Barbie nightgown and the blanket were bloodstained?

Maybe, but not with the shirt off John's back, LOL?

Maybe the fibers from John's shirt were not transferred through wiping?

How about this: John used his shirt to cleanup JonBenet because he had already removed it, it was lying nearby, could be he was in his bedroom?

Not very likely imo since the paintbrush (which in all likelihood was used to inflict the acute genital wound as JonBenet was nearing death) was taken from the tote down in the basement.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Does anyone have link to a source where it says that the Barbie nightgown and the blanket were bloodstained?


Maybe the fibers from John's shirt were not transferred through wiping?
Not very likely imo since the paintbrush (which in all likelihood was used to inflict the acute genital wound as JonBenet was nearing death) was taken from the tote down in the basement.

So John's black shirt had to of been in the basement. Either on him with him taking it off to wipe JonBenet down or someone went and grab something near the washing machine and John's shirt was it?

No one was looking for fibers when JonBenet went out that door for the final time and the Ramsey's were already hiding behind their money when they were asked for their clothes.

 

[Chrishope]

So John's black shirt had to of been in the basement. Either on him with him taking it off to wipe JonBenet down or someone went and grab something near the washing machine and John's shirt was it?

No one was looking for fibers when JonBenet went out that door for the final time and the Ramsey's were already hiding behind their money when they were asked for their clothes.

They started looking for fibers that day. The 12/26 search warrant lists various fibers taken on the 26th.

I don't think they got the shirt that day. I think that, along with other clothing was turned in quite a long time after it was asked for. So, if JR had been tipped off of the (supposed) importance of his shirt, why did he turn it in? He could have said it was thrown away between the day of the murder and the time it was asked for.

 

[DeeDee249]

JR's shirt was wool. There were other items that may have been used to wipe her- for one- there was a dark navy terry bathrobe belonging to JB that was found in an odd place- a den. There may also have been dark towels in the home. I am sure at least some dark fibers were said to have been cotton (as in terry towels or bathrobes).
I am not sure I recall whether that navy terry bathrobe or any towels from the house were ever taken into evidence and tested against the fibers from her thighs and pubic area. Anyone know? Because it was a very simple process, even in 1996/1997, to see whether those fibers from JB's body were cotton or wool, and whether they matched the wool shirt, the cotton bathrobe or a towel from the home- OR the dark comforter belonging to JAR from his dorm room at school which was found in the suitcase stained with JAR's semen. All these items could have been taken by LE THAT night, before anyone could have laundered, dry cleaned, or otherwise tampered with them. And we wouldn't be wondering right now what was used.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

JR's shirt was wool. There were other items that may have been used to wipe her- for one- there was a dark navy terry bathrobe belonging to JB that was found in an odd place- a den. There may also have been dark towels in the home. I am sure at least some dark fibers were said to have been cotton (as in terry towels or bathrobes).
I am not sure I recall whether that navy terry bathrobe or any towels from the house were ever taken into evidence and tested against the fibers from her thighs and pubic area. Anyone know? Because it was a very simple process, even in 1996/1997, to see whether those fibers from JB's body were cotton or wool, and whether they matched the wool shirt, the cotton bathrobe or a towel from the home- OR the dark comforter belonging to JAR from his dorm room at school which was found in the suitcase stained with JAR's semen. All these items could have been taken by LE THAT night, before anyone could have laundered, dry cleaned, or otherwise tampered with them. And we wouldn't be wondering right now what was used.

I thought the fibers found on JonBenet were wool and matched to John's shirt from Israel? Which wasn't matched till much later after the shirt was sent to LE.

I do think I saw that a bathrobe was taken into evidence from an room downstairs, but I thought it was the dining room? Do you mean JR instead of JB as the owner of the bathrobe? Was one of the stories told by John was that he and Burke were downstairs putting his toy together?

Could of been there from Christmas morning. It sure would be nice to see some Christmas morning pictures.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

They started looking for fibers that day. The 12/26 search warrant lists various fibers taken on the 26th.

I don't think they got the shirt that day. I think that, along with other clothing was turned in quite a long time after it was asked for. So, if JR had been tipped off of the (supposed) importance of his shirt, why did he turn it in? He could have said it was thrown away between the day of the murder and the time it was asked for.

Yes, he could have been tipped off as to it's importance and that is why I think the shirt was still around. John didn't know his shirt was used. So was it John's shirt or one like it that they replaced? Pasty couldn't remember what the hell she wore until she saw photo's of it in an interview. Then she tried to hang it on Priscilla White.

The Ramsey spin of "I might of been cold and Priscilla gave me hers" crap.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, he could have been tipped off as to it's importance and that is why I think the shirt was still around. John didn't know his shirt was used. So was it John's shirt or one like it that they replaced? Pasty couldn't remember what the hell she wore until she saw photo's of it in an interview. Then she tried to hang it on Priscilla White.

The Ramsey spin of "I might of been cold and Priscilla gave me hers" crap.

ILikeToBendPages,
Now LW would assert one like it, so please leave my client alone.

John didnt know, mmm, I doubt that. Did they sneak it out of his bedroom, or rip it off his back?

Nah, John know when he cleaned up JonBenet, that his fibers would be deposited upon JonBenet's crotch!

He was not that forensically stupid.


.

 

[Chrishope]

Yes, he could have been tipped off as to it's importance and that is why I think the shirt was still around. John didn't know his shirt was used. So was it John's shirt or one like it that they replaced? Pasty couldn't remember what the hell she wore until she saw photo's of it in an interview. Then she tried to hang it on Priscilla White.

The Ramsey spin of "I might of been cold and Priscilla gave me hers" crap.

So what you're saying is he kept the shirt around, knowing the connection law enforcement was trying to make? I think it would be smarter to get rid of it.

The police did go through the house on the day of the murder. Had his shirt been used to wipe JB wouldn't they have noticed a bloody messy shirt? Did he throw it in the washer? (I don't know where his shirt was when police arrived) It seems unlikely to me the shirt was used to wipe JB. As UKGuy points out, he wasn't that forensically stupid.

 

[rashomon]

Yes, I agree. Of course John wouldn't have used his own shirt to wipe off his victim. What a strange idea! There were all sorts of things he could have used: a paper towel, some tissues, an old rag. Once the job was done, cut the thing up and flush it down the toilet, NO problem.

Brown cotton fibers were also found in that location, which is why both John and Patsy were asked in the August 29/2000 interviews whether the Ramseys owned brown work gloves.

In addition, "Small dark blue fibers, consistent with a cotton towel, were recovered from the vaginal area." [from the Bonita Papers].
Iirc, John's blue bathrobe has been discussed in that context several times on the JBR forums.

As for the fibers, they could have been indirectly transferred to her crotch by JonBenet herself. After all, her father had carried her into the house and put her to bed, right? If she'd gotten some of his fibers into her nails and then scratched herself later, they could have transferred then. OR they could have transferred when he was attacking her. No way to tell for sure.

This possibility cannot be excluded imo.

As I see it, John's and Lin Wood's huge over-reaction when informed about these fibers speaks louder than the evidence itself.

Lin Wood had the same huge over-reaction when confronted with the fiber evidence against Patsy.
It is disgusting in what primitive manner Wood was trying to bully M. Kane and B. Levin in the interviews with Patsy and John whenever things became critical for his clients.
Imo Kane and Levin were far too lenient with the 'attack dog' Wood instead of putting him in his place.

Why didn't John simply get rid of his shirt? Well, if he and Patsy were in on it together that would not have been a problem.

I think the Ramseys felt quite safe at that point (January 1998): over a year had passed without leading to their arrest, they had succesfully lawyered up, and they were also aware that DA Hunter was intimidated by their clout and friends in high places.

Otherwise, my guess is that Patsy was the one who took care of their clothing so she would, in all innocence, have probably had it dry cleaned and then handed it over upon request. John had probably forgotten all about it.

John was asked about the black wool shirt in the Aug 29/2000 interview. He verbatim says "these are the only shirts that "we" sent".

http://www.acandyrose.com/2000ATL-John-Interview-Complete.htm

[John's reply in bold type]
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. We received
23 from your lawyers in January of '97 two
24 black shirts which we received really
25 without --
0027
1 MR. BECKNER: January of '98.
2 MR. LEVIN: January of '98. I
3 am sorry.
4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) January of 1998.
5 It was in response to Boulder Police
6 Department's request for the shirt that you
7 are wearing in the photographs from Christmas
8 at the White's house. And they were given
9 to us without explanation of how they got
10 into their possession. I thought you could
11 explain that for us.


12 A. [John Ramsey] Well, I assume they were the
13 shirts that, when we were asked to provide
14 the clothing we had on that night before, we
15 couldn't remember. We asked for a picture
16 that was taken that night so we could
17 remember. As far as I know, those are the
18 only shirts that we sent.

 

[rashomon]

From John's August 29/2000 interview [bolding mine]:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2000ATL-Jo...w-Complete.htm

0053

1 MR. WOOD: Okay.

2 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, during

3 the evening of December 25th, was there a

4 time when either, after JonBenet got dressed

5 to leave for the White's house or while she

6 was at the White's house or after you came

7 home from the White's house, she had any

8 problems going to the bathroom or problems

9 with her clothes that you may have helped

10 her with?

<...>

0057

21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is

22 our belief based on forensic evidence that

23 there are hairs that are associated, that the

24 source is the collared black shirt that you

25 sent us that are found in your daughter's

0058

1 underpants, and I wondered if you --

2 A. ********. I don't believe that.

3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to

4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --

5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to

6 disgrace --

7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I

8 think you are. That's disgusting.

[In line 23, Levin probably accidentally misspoke when he said "hairs" instead of fibers]

The day before, Patsy too had been asked about these fibers.

From Patsy's Aug 28/2000 interview [bolding mine]

http://www.acandyrose.com/2000ATL-Pa...w-Complete.htm
0202

8 MR. LEVIN [to L. Wood]: I understand your

9 position.

10 In addition to those questions,

11 there are some others that I would like you

12 to think about whether or not we can have

13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I

14 understand you are advising her not to today,

15 and those are there are black fibers that,

16 according to our testing that was conducted,

17 that match one of the two shirts that was

18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.

19 Those are located in the

20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in

21 her crotch area, and I believe those are two

22 other areas that we have intended to ask

23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in

24 explaining their presence in those locations.

"Two other areas" probably means that the black wool fibers from John's shirt had been found in JonBenet's crotch area as well as in the size 12 underpants.

 

[rashomon]

From Patsy's August 28/2000 interview:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

[bolding mine]

0200

Based on the state of the
5 art scientific testing, we believe the fibers
6 from her jacket were found in the paint
7 tray, were found tied into the ligature found
8 on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket
9 that she is wrapped in, were found on the
10 duct tape that is found on the mouth, and
11 the question is, can she explain to us how
12 those fibers appeared in those places that
13 are associated with her daughter's death.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, I agree. Of course John wouldn't have used his own shirt to wipe off his victim. What a strange idea! There were all sorts of things he could have used: a paper towel, some tissues, an old rag. Once the job was done, cut the thing up and flush it down the toilet, NO problem.

As for the fibers, they could have been indirectly transferred to her crotch by JonBenet herself. After all, her father had carried her into the house and put her to bed, right? If she'd gotten some of his fibers into her nails and then scratched herself later, they could have transferred then. OR they could have transferred when he was attacking her. No way to tell for sure.

As I see it, John's and Lin Wood's huge over-reaction when informed about these fibers speaks louder than the evidence itself.

Why didn't John simply get rid of his shirt? Well, if he and Patsy were in on it together that would not have been a problem. Otherwise, my guess is that Patsy was the one who took care of their clothing so she would, in all innocence, have probably had it dry cleaned and then handed it over upon request. John had probably forgotten all about it.

docg,
I wonder why Kolar sidestepped this issue, curious. Without knowing the exact location of the fibers, its difficult to form a view, one way or the other, as you suggest they could have arrived on JonBenet by secondary transfer? Also nobody is saying if the same fibers are to be found elsewhere on JonBenet.


.

 

[UKGuy]

From John's August 29/2000 interview [bolding mine]:
[In line 23, Levin probably accidentally misspoke when he said "hairs" instead of fibers]

The day before, Patsy too had been asked about these fibers.

From Patsy's Aug 28/2000 interview [bolding mine]


"Two other areas" probably means that the black wool fibers from John's shirt had been found in JonBenet's crotch area as well as in the size 12 underpants.

rashomon,
crotch area is pretty vague, were any found elsewhere on JonBenet, or were they restricted to her crotch area?

.

 

[Simp]

Hi everyone! Please excuse me for barging in on your thread but I was interested in reading some books concerning JBR case. I wanted to download one onto my kindle. What would you guys recommend I start with?? TIA

 

[OpenMind4U]

Hi everyone! Please excuse me for barging in on your thread but I was interested in reading some books concerning JBR case. I wanted to download one onto my kindle. What would you guys recommend I start with?? TIA

'Perfect Murder, Perfect Town' for sure!....JMO

 

[Simp]

'Perfect Murder, Perfect Town' for sure!....JMO

I just finished the sample on this one!! Thanks, I will download it!!