IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #18

[Eileen730]

I've been with this case from almost the beginning and I've not read anywhere that Lyric stayed with anyone except Misty's mom......aside she was with HC & DC when Misty was incarcerated. After HC's health problems, Gma got custody. If you can provide a link to someone stating she lived with Tammy or the other GMA I's appreciate it, as Lyric was upset at her father regarding chores, but it was her maternal GMa who hugged and comforted her at her house when Lyric was wanting to run away.

JMO, but I think Gma had been helping HC for quite awhile since her heart problems and not just for a few weeks, but that's just MOO.

Ill look but i read it here!
Tammy is the one that said it and she taught Lyric her street smarts!

 

[Marilynilpa]

Does Black Hawk County have a GIS map?

Also can anyone tell me if they used the Black Hawk County Alert system in this case, and if so when did they do that...?

https://ww2.everbridge.net/citizen/EverbridgeGateway.action?body=home&gis_alias_id=1340761

TYA

I posted this link yesterday: http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20120903/NEWS/309030028/1046/ENT/?odyssey=nav|head

"Evansdale Police Chief Kent Smock said he requested a Black Hawk County Alert, the county’s automated phone notification system, between 5 and 6 p.m. on July 13. That alert was sent to 374 residential and business land-line telephones within a half-mile to a mile radius of Collins’ home.

He said he based the parameters of the alert on how far the two children, then ages 8 and 10, were likely to wander."

 

[Sunlight]

I posted this link yesterday: http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20120903/NEWS/309030028/1046/ENT/?odyssey=nav|head

"Evansdale Police Chief Kent Smock said he requested a Black Hawk County Alert, the county’s automated phone notification system, between 5 and 6 p.m. on July 13. That alert was sent to 374 residential and business land-line telephones within a half-mile to a mile radius of Collins’ home.

He said he based the parameters of the alert on how far the two children, then ages 8 and 10, were likely to wander."

That bothers me. Sometimes you get people who just think...oh, calm down...they probably just wandered off (and precious time is lost), but that is because there are so many kids that do just that..they wander off and come back late. Things in this world have changed, and attitude needs to change. MOO

 

[nursebeeme]

Hi Everyone,
Take a minute to vote in the poll
What happened to Lyric & Elizabeth

What do you think happened to Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook Morrissey? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

thank you for your hard work on this poll Gracelin!:rocker:

 

[Marilynilpa]

thank you for your hard work on this poll Gracelin!:rocker:

I agree, Gracelin, the poll is awesome and it will be interesting to see how everyone votes.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm thankful that investigators and prosecutors do not use instinct, or intuition, to solve crimes. The use of facts and evidence is not only more reliable, but helps prevent the pitfalls of tunnel vision that are often associated with instinct, intuition, or feelings.

Sorry but they do.

Instinct is what guides them.

EVIDENCE is what proves the case, but INSTINCT is what tells them where to look for the evidence.

We now know that we have some posters on this thread who are/have been actively involved in investigations of one kind or another, and they will ALL tell you that instinct is one of their major tools.

This is why we have so many cases (eg Casey Anthony) where blind freddy can tell what has likely happened, but the perp goes free...no EVIDENCE.

Would they have chased the Anthonys so hard if it wasn't for instinct? Nope. The EVIDENCE just wasn't there.

Jonbenet, another one. Most Americans believe the parents were involved. Again, not enough EVIDENCE (debateable) or at least, not enough to bring charges and make them stick.

:banghead:

ETA - a snippet from msm on the Isabel Celis case, where the search warrants are still sealed -

Police may not know for sure what happened in the Celis house the day the six year old girl disappeared but search warrants may offer their theories.

A search warrant release often includes transcripts of detectives convincing the judge to issue the warrant. They tell the judge what they think they may find. After the search, detectives report what they did find.

http://www.kgun9.com/news/local/160916585.html

 

[daisynae]

Much has been made of that statement... "we love that child." Patsy Ramsey was from Georgia. People in the South use similar phrases all the time, and we don't always refer to a child by his or her name. It is not distancing, it's more of an affectionate term actually. I realize it sounds different to the rest of the world but it is as normal and natural to us as the sun coming up in the east. Patsy was just speaking about her child like any other Southern lady would.

I agree I am from the south and I would here that phrase all of the time.
like.. OH, that baby.
Give me that baby (when some one else is holding them)
Oh, that precious child
ECT............

 

[SapphireSteel]

I agree I am from the south and I would here that phrase all of the time.
like.. OH, that baby.
Give me that baby (when some one else is holding them)
Oh, that precious child
ECT............

I too would say "give me that baby".

The baby in question still being alive.

And not mine.

A mother speaking of a deceased daughter as "that child" is NOT natural speech, no matter where you come from.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I too would say "give me that baby".

The baby in question still being alive.

And not mine.

A mother speaking of a deceased daughter as "that child" is NOT natural speech, no matter where you come from.

I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree with you. I am a Southerner and have heard that phrase, and similar phrases, all my life. It's common to hear a man say, "I love that woman" when referring to his wife or girlfriend. And women often say "I love that man" when referring to a husband or boyfriend. I've heard it said in all types of environments/settings - church, school, work, social - and never thought it sounded odd or unusual. Just natural speech.

I do not find anything suspect about Patsy Ramsey's comment. I guess that is why I don't put much credence in statement analysis, because people who don't come from the same background as the person they are analyzing don't know all of the nuances of regional speech. A statement that seems normal to people in a certain region might sound unreasonable or questionable to people outside of that certain region, IMO

I doubt statement analysis will aid in bringing Lyric and Elizabeth home. But as you stated earlier, there are lots of pieces to the puzzle. If anyone thinks statement analysis can bring these girls home, well, I pray that you're right. JMO and not intended to trigger an ongoing debate about statement analysis.

 

[hambirg]

That bothers me. Sometimes you get people who just think...oh, calm down...they probably just wandered off (and precious time is lost), but that is because there are so many kids that do just that..they wander off and come back late. Things in this world have changed, and attitude needs to change. MOO

Or worse. . .could it have tipped off a perp that the girls were now noticed missing? :waitasec:

 

[Sunlight]

Or worse. . .could it have tipped off a perp that the girls were now noticed missing? :waitasec:

Well, honestly I think they thought that since there were two that hadn't come home at lunchtime, during the summer, out biking, etc., the girls were just wandering around losing track of time and didn't take the families concern quite that seriously. Then, they began to think that the girls probably drowned..and they did, to their credit, bring in the FBI (which indicates that they were considering something more complex).

 

[hambirg]

Well, honestly I think they thought that since there were two that hadn't come home at lunchtime, during the summer, out biking, etc., the girls were just wandering around losing track of time and didn't take the families concern quite that seriously. Then, they began to think that the girls probably drowned..and they did, to their credit, bring in the FBI (which indicates that they were considering something more complex).

Oh I agree. .. I was just saying that they may have unknowingly done that. . . I wasn't implying that LE did anything wrong.

 

[foxbluff]

Hi:seeya: fox bluff,you think the clock was off an hour and eight minutes?
Wouldnt the cameras owner and LE corrected the time line by now?
:moo:

Hi Cherie.T...I really appreciate your reply on this subj. as it's the second time I've brought up the possible "one hour earlier" if camera doesn't automatically adjust to DST and nobody manually changes time twice a year. My guess is that the mgr has never even given any thought to what hour the camera reflects.

I feel sure that FBI would have immediately checked to make sure camera was running on the correct hour. (IMO, it most likely did.)

However, if the camera time didn't reflect "springing forward one hour", is there any reason LE would have wanted to withhold that tidbit from the general public????

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree with you. I am a Southerner and have heard that phrase, and similar phrases, all my life. It's common to hear a man say, "I love that woman" when referring to his wife or girlfriend. And women often say "I love that man" when referring to a husband or boyfriend. I've heard it said in all types of environments/settings - church, school, work, social - and never thought it sounded odd or unusual. Just natural speech.

I do not find anything suspect about Patsy Ramsey's comment. I guess that is why I don't put much credence in statement analysis, because people who don't come from the same background as the person they are analyzing don't know all of the nuances of regional speech. A statement that seems normal to people in a certain region might sound unreasonable or questionable to people outside of that certain region, IMO

I doubt statement analysis will aid in bringing Lyric and Elizabeth home. But as you stated earlier, there are lots of pieces to the puzzle. If anyone thinks statement analysis can bring these girls home, well, I pray that you're right. JMO and not intended to trigger an ongoing debate about statement analysis.

Again, I am assuming that all the people being described in this Southern way, are alive.

PR could NOT have been talking in a casual, nuanced way.

She was on tv, defending herself.

Natural speech from a grieved mother is "I loved my daughter" or even, "we loved our daughter" or "we loved Jonbenet".

The Ramseys studiously avoid the words "daughter" and "jonbenet".

Try it yourself, all you southerners. Put yourself in the shoes of a grieving mother, those of you who have kids.

Are you really going to say, We loved THAT CHILD

or are you going to say We loved our baby/our daughter/jonbenet

Remember, the key words here are GRIEVING and DEFENSIVE. You must take language in context, not what you'd hear when everyone is alive and well and chatting over lunch...people (myself included) say things in a joking or colloquial manner all the time, which would horrify and be totally out of place if the subject of the joke was deceased, especially in such a horrible way.

 

[daisynae]

I too would say "give me that baby".

The baby in question still being alive.

And not mine.

A mother speaking of a deceased daughter as "that child" is NOT natural speech, no matter where you come from.

I was trying to say that other people do talk that way.
But when it comes to a mising child I know that you are right about
saying that THAT is not a propper thing to say,
<modsnip>
Now did you ever tell me who you think>
I would like to know I have enjoyed all of youur post.
You have great insight.
Me well I am just little ole me! Nice to meet you!:genie:

 

[SapphireSteel]

I was trying to say that other people do talk that way.
But when it comes to a mising child I know that you are right about
saying that THAT is not a propper thing to say,
<modsnip>
Now did you ever tell me who you think>
I would like to know I have enjoyed all of youur post.
You have great insight.
Me well I am just little ole me! Nice to meet you!:genie:

Thank you

It is lovely to have someone actually agree with me on that point...especially a southener. Context is very important when attempting statement/behavioural analysis.

<modsnip>

 

[princessk]

I have never spoken on here, but i do have a degree in English and have taken many Linguistics classes. Language can be interpreted in many different ways. Being from the Appalachia area, i have done many studies on language usage, and the use of "loved that child" can not be interpreted as "unnatural language." The only way to judge that would be to do a detailed study and analysis of THAT particular person's language use throughout his/her life and in many different situations and settings.

 

[foxbluff]

You can define it as cold if you want to, but I don't think LE in this case have stopped investigating, so it's not cold to them, and I would bet that it's not cold to the people in that community. As long as they're still working on the case, it's still active.
Maybe the media isn't reporting on it, maybe these threads here have slowed down because some get tired of talking about the same things over and over, but that doesn't mean LE has put the files in a box or the lower drawer of the file cabinet and forgot about it. I would bet that they are still checking leads and tips and trying to find the girls. Being unsolved does not equal a cold case as long as there is still an investigation going on.

Thank you for this post... which, btw, I happen to agree with 100%. With our growing frustration from "no new news," the reminder you're giving us is very timely. Ty.

 

[nursebeeme]

welcome to websleuths princessk :cheer:

 

[GrainneDhu]

We know the grandmother got custody!
But Lyric lived with Tammy at some point.

I don't mean this in a snarky way but... can you refer me to a link that says this? I thought I'd read/watched almost all the msm stories about this case and I have totally missed this.

Of course, I read/watched all that stuff more than five minutes ago, so it is totally possible I have forgotten. My memory is as old as the rest of me. <sigh>