IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #20

[GrainneDhu]

At one user on the trail every six minutes, it seems it would be a very risky place for an abduction to take place.

Another theory might be someone walking the trail with just a dog leash told the girls their puppy ran into the bushes and approached the girls to help.

I can almost visualize a young woman doing this with a male accomplice.

IMO

It gives me the shudders but yes, I can see a woman helping out a male accomplice that way.

I think that whoever did this is someone who is not averse to risk taking. And it's very possible that the higher the risk, the better the high if you see what I mean.

Many years ago, I watched a demo put on by the police to show how quickly someone can be abducted by car. The volunteer knew that there would be an abduction attempt but not exactly how it would happen and they were supposed to try to act like an average person.

The police officer playing the part of perpetrator pulled up alongside the person playing victim in a four door car. He pulled over to the wrong side of the street so he could roll down his window and ask the "victim" for directions. He pretended that he couldn't figure out the directions and pulled out a map to have the "victim" show the directions on the map.

As soon as the "victim" came within arm's reach of the "perpetrator" he grabbed her by the coat sleeve and hauled her in through the driver's side window, stuffed her into the passenger side footwell and drove off.

The whole thing only took 2 or 3 seconds from the time he grabbed her arm. Literally, if I had blinked at the wrong moment, I would have missed it. From the time the "perpetrator" pulled up was probably a minute or well under it.

When the "victim" and "perpetrator" came back, the "victim" said that she never saw it coming, that she felt she had stopped a safe distance from the car door.

I've never forgotten how fast it was. How quickly the "perpetrator" got control of the "victim."

In this case, I think the perpetrator led or forced Elizabeth and Lyric into the woods by the nature trail very quickly. Someone could have walked by a minute later and not have seen anything but two bicycles by the trail.

 

[GrainneDhu]

A few years ago my boyfriend and I had a very heated "discussion" (argument!) over a call I'd placed regarding an overdue furniture delivery. I could very clearly remember the day of the week, time of day, and what was on t.v. when I made the call. He insisted I'd made the call a day later.

This was before the days of being able to check your cell phone log to see when a call was placed. When I mentioned this argument with my BF, my mom totally amazed me by agreeing with HIM! It turns out I couldn't have placed the call on the day I said I did, because my mom and I had coffee together at her house that morning and I never used my phone while there.

Was I intentionally being deceptive? No. Was I stubborn in my position that I made that call on that day at that time? Yes. Was I wrong? Absolutely, positively.

TG was just wrong, IMO. Absolutely, positively.

That's a perfect example of how a person can make an honest mistake in what they remember.

That's why eyewitness testimony is sooooo dangerous in court. Eyewitnesses can be wrong without realising it and their inner certainty over their accuracy can cause the jury to believe them.

For a great book about this, try Picking Cotton: Our Memoir of Injustice and Redemption by Jennifer Thompson-Cannino and Ronald Cotton. Based on Jennifer Thompson-Cannino's mistaken testimony, Ronald Cotton spent 11 years in prison. When he was finally granted DNA testing, he was proven innocent. The book has a great feel-good ending.

I think this sort of mistake happens many times a day but it usually doesn't matter in the least, so it goes unnoticed. It is so rare for such mistakes to matter than it seems much rarer than it really is.

 

[SapphireSteel]

A few years ago my boyfriend and I had a very heated "discussion" (argument!) over a call I'd placed regarding an overdue furniture delivery. I could very clearly remember the day of the week, time of day, and what was on t.v. when I made the call. He insisted I'd made the call a day later.

This was before the days of being able to check your cell phone log to see when a call was placed. When I mentioned this argument with my BF, my mom totally amazed me by agreeing with HIM! It turns out I couldn't have placed the call on the day I said I did, because my mom and I had coffee together at her house that morning and I never used my phone while there.

Was I intentionally being deceptive? No. Was I stubborn in my position that I made that call on that day at that time? Yes. Was I wrong? Absolutely, positively.

TG was just wrong, IMO. Absolutely, positively.

I don't think he is wrong.

I believe he swerved around those bikes that day just like he said he did.

As to the time he told LE it was...who knows. The 12.27 is merely rumour....unless someone has a link?

:dunno:

 

[SapphireSteel]

At one user on the trail every six minutes, it seems it would be a very risky place for an abduction to take place.

Another theory might be someone walking the trail with just a dog leash told the girls their puppy ran into the bushes and approached the girls to help.

I can almost visualize a young woman doing this with a male accomplice.

IMO

Me too. Or an older perp with a much younger perp...or perps.

 

[Marilynilpa]

That's a perfect example of how a person can make an honest mistake in what they remember.

That's why eyewitness testimony is sooooo dangerous in court. Eyewitnesses can be wrong without realising it and their inner certainty over their accuracy can cause the jury to believe them.

For a great book about this, try Picking Cotton: Our Memoir of Injustice and Redemption by Jennifer Thompson-Cannino and Ronald Cotton. Based on Jennifer Thompson-Cannino's mistaken testimony, Ronald Cotton spent 11 years in prison. When he was finally granted DNA testing, he was proven innocent. The book has a great feel-good ending.

I think this sort of mistake happens many times a day but it usually doesn't matter in the least, so it goes unnoticed. It is so rare for such mistakes to matter than it seems much rarer than it really is.

That book sounds interesting. I'll look for it on my next trip to the library.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I don't think he is wrong.

I believe he swerved around those bikes that day just like he said he did.

As to the time he told LE it was...who knows. The 12.27 is merely rumour....unless someone has a link?

:dunno:

SS, I don't think the time was ever officially reported. It has been mentioned in MSM, rumored on FB and discussed repeatedly here on WS. But as to the time he told LE he saw the bikes, only TG and LE know for sure, and LE isn't saying. IMO

 

[Tucarra]

What is everyones thought on why TG's timeframe was wrong?

I think he saw a different set of bicycles.....the OTHER BICYCLES....

And wondering too about the person who posted they saw two guys maniacally tearing apart bikes in the campground near there...would take me two days to find those postings...but yeah...thinking right-ish time, wrong bikes....

 

[CHERIE.T]

So ...it appears most here think this was a random abduction.
I just don't see it that way. Imoo, I see at least one of the girls talking and
possibly meeting the perp before July 13.(Think cell phone, Internet, maybe meeting when with
their older cousin. )

The CCTV of the girls peddling like NASCAR racers showed purpose Imoo.
I think the perp knew at least one of the girls would be meeting
him that day. I think the abduction was preplanned along with the perp knowing
what vehicle he'd drive and where he would take the girls after the kidnapping.

IMO the perp wanted Lyric and didn't plan on Lizzy being there. Sorry but I think the
Unintended was murdered soon after the kidnapping because she wasn't part of the plan.
All my rambling and opinion only.

 

[RNER]

I am bothered by the fact that if it were a random pedophile abduction, why have there not been any alerts or warnings issued to the community?

I live in a town similar in size and population to Evansdale/Waterloo. There have been missing children in our town (none ended up being abductions), and in almost every situation, warnings were issued through media for people to take precautions, be more alert, lock doors, supervise children more carefully, observe for certain vehicles, report suspicious activities, etc.

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't get the sense that this kind of alert has been issued in the Evansdale/Waterloo area, yet the disappearances were classified as abductions.

IMOO...I feel that for some reason, LE does not believe this to be a random pedophile abduction.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Statistics say it isn't a random.

:twocents:

ETA: and my instincts.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I am bothered by the fact that if it were a random pedophile abduction, why have there not been any alerts or warnings issued to the community?

I live in a town similar in size and population to Evansdale/Waterloo. There have been missing children in our town (none ended up being abductions), and in almost every situation, warnings were issued through media for people to take precautions, be more alert, lock doors, supervise children more carefully, observe for certain vehicles, report suspicious activities, etc.

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't get the sense that this kind of alert has been issued in the Evansdale/Waterloo area, yet the disappearances were classified as abductions.

IMOO...I feel that for some reason, LE does not believe this to be a random pedophile abduction.

IMO, LE has had a POI in mind from the early days of their investigation, and every move they make is with one purpose in mind - to gather enough information to allow them to make an arrest. Again, JMO and I know many of you will disagree.

 

[Confusion]

I just have to throw out a new scenario using the infamous paddleboat. Would it make sense for someone to "borrow" one from someone who was gone, ride it over by the jetty, get off and go to the park/restroom area to look for a victim or two. When he sees the girls (who may have been somewhat familiar with him), he tells them if they meet him over there he'll let them go for a ride on it. While they bike over, he drives there and parks close by. Once they get there, he ... somebody else can finish from here. Without an accomplice, I'm not sure what he'd do. :blushing:

 

[Marilynilpa]

Statistics say it isn't.

:twocents:

If everyone factors in statistics, coincidence, instinct and the few known facts released by LE/FBI/DCI, I wonder how many people favor planned abduction over random abduction?

When I look at what we know, I interpret the facts and circumstances to be clear evidence of a planned abduction.

But others, looking at the same set of facts and circumstances, just as clearly see evidence of a random abduction.

The same is true of known/unknown abductor. I firmly believe the abductor(s) were known to the girls and at least one girl's family. This could be through friendship, church, work or other relationship.

But others looks at the same info and believe the abductor was a pedophile and unknown to the girls.

It's interesting how so many well-meaning, dedicated, smart people can look at the same situation and see it in so many ways!

 

[GrainneDhu]

I am bothered by the fact that if it were a random pedophile abduction, why have there not been any alerts or warnings issued to the community?

I live in a town similar in size and population to Evansdale/Waterloo. There have been missing children in our town (none ended up being abductions), and in almost every situation, warnings were issued through media for people to take precautions, be more alert, lock doors, supervise children more carefully, observe for certain vehicles, report suspicious activities, etc.

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't get the sense that this kind of alert has been issued in the Evansdale/Waterloo area, yet the disappearances were classified as abductions.

IMOO...I feel that for some reason, LE does not believe this to be a random pedophile abduction.

I think there's a couple reasons why LE hasn't issued such warnings.

Right after it happened, what point would there have been to a warning? Even in my town over 90 miles away people were being very cautious with their children. Any parent who was not taking extra precautions would not have been influenced by hearing a warning.

Living in Iowa all my life, I've rarely heard any such warnings.

After Johnny Gosch was abducted, The Des Moines Register asked the local police if there was any reason to change their policies on carriers. The answer was no, so the Register didn't make any changes.

After Eugene Martin disappeared, I don't think the Register even consulted the police, they just changed their policies and fired all carriers under 16.

There still wasn't a community wide warning.

Then Marc Allen disappeared... and still no community wide warning.

The times I've seen warnings, it has been through the schools. Schools in the potential risk area notify parents directly, rather than relying on media alerts. I think this is actually a more effective system, especially now that there is no single media source that is likely to reach most people, the way radio and TV once was (in the days before cable TV).

Finally, in a sense, it's just not an Iowa thing to do. As Ollipop once observed, the Iowa way is to look as serene as ducks swimming on a pond while out of sight, we're all paddling like mad.

I think that really applies to the Elizabeth and Lyric case; LE looks like they're doing nothing but there's a lot going on under the surface where it can't be seen.

 

[nikb]

It gives me the shudders but yes, I can see a woman helping out a male accomplice that way.

I think that whoever did this is someone who is not averse to risk taking. And it's very possible that the higher the risk, the better the high if you see what I mean.

Many years ago, I watched a demo put on by the police to show how quickly someone can be abducted by car. The volunteer knew that there would be an abduction attempt but not exactly how it would happen and they were supposed to try to act like an average person.

The police officer playing the part of perpetrator pulled up alongside the person playing victim in a four door car. He pulled over to the wrong side of the street so he could roll down his window and ask the "victim" for directions. He pretended that he couldn't figure out the directions and pulled out a map to have the "victim" show the directions on the map.

As soon as the "victim" came within arm's reach of the "perpetrator" he grabbed her by the coat sleeve and hauled her in through the driver's side window, stuffed her into the passenger side footwell and drove off.

The whole thing only took 2 or 3 seconds from the time he grabbed her arm. Literally, if I had blinked at the wrong moment, I would have missed it. From the time the "perpetrator" pulled up was probably a minute or well under it.

When the "victim" and "perpetrator" came back, the "victim" said that she never saw it coming, that she felt she had stopped a safe distance from the car door.

I've never forgotten how fast it was. How quickly the "perpetrator" got control of the "victim."

In this case, I think the perpetrator led or forced Elizabeth and Lyric into the woods by the nature trail very quickly. Someone could have walked by a minute later and not have seen anything but two bicycles by the trail.

Thank you for posting that GrainneDhu. That is really frightening. OT somewhat but I had a situation like that happen to me before that scares me to this day. I was in my early 20's and was pretty suspicious about the whole situation, but thought it was "ok" since I was in a familliar area, and easily within yelling distance of my boyfriend and his roommates - the store was right around the corner. I got a little too close to the driver who needed directions and had the "map" down pretty low so you had to get really close to the car to see it. He grabbed my arm but took off when I yanked it away and luckily people pulled into the parking lot. I realized later I could've been long gone before anyone noticed. It would've been incredibly fast. Probably even faster if you're talking about two young innocent girls vs. a pretty hesitant 20 year old.

 

[CHERIE.T]

If everyone factors in statistics, coincidence, instinct and the few known facts released by LE/FBI/DCI, I wonder how many people favor planned abduction over random abduction?

When I look at what we know, I interpret the facts and circumstances to be clear evidence of a planned abduction.

But others, looking at the same set of facts and circumstances, just as clearly see evidence of a random abduction.

The same is true of known/unknown abductor. I firmly believe the abductor(s) were known to the girls and at least one girl's family. This could be through friendship, church, work or other relationship.

But others looks at the same info and believe the abductor was a pedophile and unknown to the girls.

It's interesting how so many well-meaning, dedicated, smart people can look at the same situation and see it in so many ways!

I agree with your pov.
I do respect all theories.

 

[nikb]

SS, I don't think the time was ever officially reported. It has been mentioned in MSM, rumored on FB and discussed repeatedly here on WS. But as to the time he told LE he saw the bikes, only TG and LE know for sure, and LE isn't saying. IMO

Last I read his report doesn't exist according to LE so... the time AFAIK is only what was in MSM (well and FB of course), but nothing from LE.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Can you imagine how the parents and granmas feel?
How do they go on day after day while knowing another
day passing means still no Lyric and no Lizzy!

I get upset when my husband and adult kids are late coming home!

HOW have they survived 8 weeks?
I literally would likely go insane ....I'd need meds 24/7.
I pray the girls are found ad come home.

 

[RNER]

I think there's a couple reasons why LE hasn't issued such warnings.

Right after it happened, what point would there have been to a warning? Even in my town over 90 miles away people were being very cautious with their children. Any parent who was not taking extra precautions would not have been influenced by hearing a warning.

Living in Iowa all my life, I've rarely heard any such warnings.

After Johnny Gosch was abducted, The Des Moines Register asked the local police if there was any reason to change their policies on carriers. The answer was no, so the Register didn't make any changes.

After Eugene Martin disappeared, I don't think the Register even consulted the police, they just changed their policies and fired all carriers under 16.

There still wasn't a community wide warning.

Then Marc Allen disappeared... and still no community wide warning.

The times I've seen warnings, it has been through the schools. Schools in the potential risk area notify parents directly, rather than relying on media alerts. I think this is actually a more effective system, especially now that there is no single media source that is likely to reach most people, the way radio and TV once was (in the days before cable TV).

Finally, in a sense, it's just not an Iowa thing to do. As Ollipop once observed, the Iowa way is to look as serene as ducks swimming on a pond while out of sight, we're all paddling like mad.I think that really applies to the Elizabeth and Lyric case; LE looks like they're doing nothing but there's a lot going on under the surface where it can't be seen.

Wow! That's scary!

 

[Marilynilpa]

Last I read his report doesn't exist according to LE so... the time AFAIK is only what was in MSM (well and FB of course), but nothing from LE.

That's exactly the way I recall it as well. In fact, Abben acted as though he had never heard of TG, IIRC.