IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[Victoriouswon]

It was so sad to watch her sitting there. I have no idea what is going on between the two (Heather & Drew) but she looked so small sitting there in that chair my heart hurt for her. Watching her body language and listening to her was sad for me. idk jmo

I noticed their body language as well. Heather could not possibly be any further away from Drew. They barely looked at each other. Even though she had to sit near the Christmas tree for the mic, it seemed very odd. Her whole body was turned away from Drew. In other cases like this,the parents are holding each other's hands at the very least. I've never seen body language like this in these type of cases. I found it hard to concentrate on their words. I was going to ask if these two were still married as it was that big of a void between them.

If it was me I would not have been able to have perfect hair and my nails done to boot. I would not even be out of the mental ward to do an interview. Her faith is the strongest I have ever witnessed.

 

[Zoe Zo]

We've seen here how people suspect the family because of the meth connection. The same thing happened with Victoria Stafford - the mother's pharmaceutical drug addiction led to much speculation that the mother was involved. She wasn't. Nothing she did caused her daughter to be abducted and murdered. It seems to me that to fully appreciate what has happened here - which is needed in order to make an arrest, people need to ignore the meth connection and focus on the fact that these two little girls were grabbed while riding their bikes on a summer afternoon. Focusing on Lyric's parents seems to detract from the true nature of the crime of child abductions. They're easy targets, but I sincerely doubt that anything they did at any time in their lives caused this to happen.

I agree~ I don't think this has anything to do with Dan and Misty pass! It is some sick evil person or persons who either knew the girls or just come upon them and seen an opportunely.

 

[otto]

Oh my gosh!!! I know a cm? (not used to the lingo) Anyway, he has been in Prison.. loved to take photos of young girls, (went to prison for it) He is VERY strong, and I personally witnessed him snapping a cats neck and throwing it into a house, then continued to smoke his cigarette like nothing had happened. Also has the drug thing going, etc. But I don't want to jump to conclusions.. look what happened to CMF?

It seems to me that the person that did this could be from the Collin's church, from the rural areas between Evansdale and 7 Bridges County Park, a restless guy with nothing to do on a Friday afternoon ... it could be anyone. I have not seen any reason to connect this abduction to drugs. In fact, given how organized the abduction and murders appears to be, I think it's unlikely that the perp's mind was clouded with drugs.

 

[foxbluff]

I apologize I only read the last two pages, but has a COD been announced?
thanks!

IMHO, no apology needed... And, no COD has been announced. It is my understanding from MSM articles that ME will not be giving LE a COD until all forensic tests are in.

 

[chelsea6]

It seems to me that the person that did this could be from the Collin's church, from the rural areas between Evansdale and 7 Bridges County Park, a restless guy with nothing to do on a Friday afternoon ... it could be anyone. I have not seen any reason to connect this abduction to drugs. In fact, given how organized the abduction and murders appears to be, I think it's unlikely that the perp's mind was clouded with drugs.

Woops.. I deleted this, didn't know it came up. Not even sure he still does drugs anymore , it's just in his background. And believe me, he is no dummy.

 

[SailorMoon]

I think that Misty probably has good reasons for not having the girls buried and memorialized together.

One of which, in my opinion, is that little Lizzie would over-shine (so to speak) Lyric at the memorial. Lyric is smaller, cuter (in a traditional little kid way), and looks more innocent than her older, more developed cousin. Lyric looks less like a child, and therefore less innocent, cute, helpless etc (although we know she was all of these things because she's 10).

I was heavy and 5'6"ish at age 10 and had started to develop. Teachers treated me differently. I'd overhear them call the short, thin, not yet developing girls "so cute" and baby them. I felt like they and some adults thought I was an ugly duckling and would forget that I was the same age as those "little kids" despite being stuck in a woman's body (with size 11 feet). It was like they expected me to act older than the "little" girls my same age and be more mature/not kid around all cutesy like the "little" girls. I was taller than all but one of the boys in my grade & I always felt like some were suspicious that I and the other developing, larger girls would be interested in boys in a way that the little girls were not. Like developing early made us more prone to be promiscuous or something, when really, all we wanted to do was play Barbies and watch "The Lion King" like other 10 year olds & wish away all of the changes that were happening to our bodies. Many adults seemed to have a presumption we were somehow less innocent or less like children because we were bigger.

My guess is "little"/younger Lizzie would have taken away some of the spotlight from Lyric, at least in a memorial service. Putting pics of the two side by side might cause some to question that perhaps the older, more developed cousin was talking to someone online, meeting a boy, etc that led to this event and poor little Lizzie got dragged into it & hurt also.

I hope this all makes sense. I am not saying anyone at WS has treated either girl differently or as less/more innocent or as less/more of a child. However, my guess (based on my own experience) is that many of the adults (non-family members) who interacted with Lyric treated her somewhat differently from other "little" less-developed kids her own age and that as her mom, Misty picked up on this & we're seeing it in her decision to have a separate service/burial.

I grew for about a year more, eventually reaching 5'8ish with size 11 feet (thank goodness my feet didn't grow anymore). I eventually lost a lot of weight and entered college as 5'8ish and 135lbs/size 4/6 or so (not what I weigh/wear anymore) and outgrew my ugly duckling, kid in a woman's body, awkward 10-13 year old overweight developing-early phase. Lyric reminds me of myself as far as her size at that age (granted I was taller as well)- I am sad that she will never get to enjoy her swan phase where the adults (and sometimes other kids) who treated you so differently during that awkward stage see you and are shocked at the beautiful swan you've become (and you can tell they feel bad for how they acted towards you years ago). Just another thing this perp stole from these girls.

This brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for writing this. It's most likely spot on.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I noticed their body language as well. Heather could not possibly be any further away from Drew. They barely looked at each other. Even though she had to sit near the Christmas tree for the mic, it seemed very odd. Her whole body was turned away from Drew. In other cases like this,the parents are holding each other's hands at the very least. I've never seen body language like this in these type of cases. I found it hard to concentrate on their words. I was going to ask if these two were still married as it was that big of a void between them.

If it was me I would not have been able to have perfect hair and my nails done to boot. I would not even be out of the mental ward to do an interview. Her faith is the strongest I have ever witnessed.

I saw Drew and Heather holding hands on at least one occasion in the interview, and I saw them looking at each other many times. So I'm not sure if we watched the same interview!

Regarding her body language, Heather's microphone was behind her, so maybe she feared she wouldn't be heard clearly if she didn't try to stay scooted over near it. I certainly don't feel she was trying to position herself away from Drew.

About Heather's hair and nails - if you read Lizzie's obituary, it states that she loved getting her hair and nails done. I see nothing wrong with Heather's hair and nails being done - for all we know, she did it because it made her feel closer to Lizzie.

I thought Drew and Heather appeared to be a couple united in their love for Lizzie, their grief at her passing, and their determination to use this terrible tragedy for a positive purpose - working with others to find a way to keep other children safe from pedophiles.

Considering the fact that I would probably be cowering in the corner of my closet if this had happened to my child, I applaud them for their strength. As you said, Heather's strength is amazing. I hope everyone around her realizes that although she seems rock solid right now, she'll still need people to lean on at times. JMO

 

[otto]

I saw Drew and Heather holding hands on at least one occasion in the interview, and I saw them looking at each other many times. So I'm not sure if we watched the same interview!

Regarding her body language, Heather's microphone was behind her, so maybe she feared she wouldn't be heard clearly if she didn't try to stay scooted over near it. I certainly don't feel she was trying to position herself away from Drew.

About Heather's hair and nails - if you read Lizzie's obituary, it states that she loved getting her hair and nails done. I see nothing wrong with Heather's hair and nails being done - for all we know, she did it because it made her feel closer to Lizzie.

I thought Drew and Heather appeared to be a couple united in their love for Lizzie, their grief at her passing, and their determination to use this terrible tragedy for a positive purpose - working with others to find a way to keep other children safe from pedophiles.

Considering the fact that I would probably be cowering in the corner of my closet if this had happened to my child, I applaud them for their strength. As you said, Heather's strength is amazing. I hope everyone around her realizes that although she seems rock solid right now, she'll still need people to lean on at times. JMO

Sharon Rocha, in her book about her daughter Laci Peterson, describes lying in bed for weeks after receiving the news that her daughter's remains had been found. The fact that Heather gets up, looks after the three remaining children, puts herself together and is the voice of her murdered daughter is commendable. It seems that her faith in God gives her the strength to face this head on. This is the opposite of what the perp wants. He wants the focus to be on him and his evil deeds, but the family has made it clear that they couldn't care less about the details of his time with the children. Hopefully this will force the perp to want to shout it from the rooftops.

 

[Marilynilpa]

otto, I agree that the 7 Bridges Park was likely the site of the sexual assault. LE reported that the location was thought to be only the body dump site. I am sure that there must have been obvious indicators for this conclusion. Imo the area where the sexual attacks occurred would not have been too far away.

Although there was a much larger window of time from abduction to location of remains in this case. This is an interesting study on obtaining, and the microbial decomposition of DNA from flip flops as opposed to shoe insoles:
http://www.forensic.sc.mahidol.ac.th/proceeding/52_kittisak.pdf
(snipped - read more)

DNA RETRIEVAL ON FLIP-FLOPS

Every single piece of evidence recovered in a crime scene has evidential value in terms of forensic aspect. The association of victim, scene and perpetrator must be revealed for a reconstruction of the crime and the resultant DNA is often a crucial tool to identify a perpetrator or exclude an innocent suspect.

As expected, the increasing of DNA amount could generally be observed in 90% of samples at 7-day experiment
compared to 1-day experiment. But 40% of samples from 14-day experiment unexpectedly showed sign of declined DNA amount compared to the 7-day.

This indicated that time length was not the only major affect on
DNA quantity. The decline is more likely due to the process of microbial decomposition (11) as dirt could obviously be seen during the swabbing of the 14-day experimental samples.

Actually there is combination of factors
involved. The variability of individuals in cell shedding ability (1.5.7) was the very first factor to be considered. The previous researchers also studied on shoe insoles from 11 shoes collected from two donor wearers and reported that the insole area gave adequate DNA to produce profiles.

BBM

Could you please provide a link to this? The only comments made about a "dump site", to my knowledge, came from a reporter on JVM with alleged inside connections. I question the validity of his statement, because at the time he made it, LE had not even finished their search of the area. Without finishing the search, how could LE know whether or not the girls had been killed there, or nearby. And if LE didn't know, where did this "inside information" come from, other than the fertile mind of a reporter wanting to sensationalize an already tragic situation. JMO

 

[ktgirl]

I think that if parents have drug problems, that ends up clouding the investiagtion whether they were involved or not. And it means extra time and attention will be used looking into a drug connection that, if it is a stranger abduction, could be better used to find the actual perpetrator. Parents always have to be cleared, but it seems like this takes longer and clouds public perception of the case if a parent has a drug problem.

Ever since following HaLeigh Cummings and Hailey Dunn's cases, I've thought "note to self: one more reason not do not become a drug user is because if your kids ever legitimately go missing and you had nothing to do with it, much of the investigation & public interest in the case will center on your drug activity rather than looking for who took the child if it's a stranger abduction." (And obviously, Haleigh & Hailey's cases are cases where the drug issue is pertinent but in cases where it may not be, it still seems to dominate a lot of the discussion if it exists. Every so often I wonder what if, although it's like a 0.1% chance, HaLeigh was taken by a sexual predator who was not part of the Satsuma drug culture and is still out there even though it's highly unlikely. What if all of the attention was placed on the wrong people because of their drug problems/lifestyle? Best way to avoid this seems to be to not develop a drug problem.)

 

[tlcya]

Heather and Drew appear to have a LOT of support. Their faith, their church community, friends, total strangers have ralled round. This is wonderful and will be invaluable should they stumble, need to lean on someone, something, when they are not strong.

I have no doubt that they will get through this, and continue to raise their other children, honor Lizzie in their lives and try to put some meaning behind all this.

I worry that Dan and Misty will not fare so well. Their coping skills are not in great shape to begin with or they wouldnt be drug users. There seems to be a lot of water flowing under the family bridge and their support seems more tenuous, more amorphous, offered more grudgingly by some and by others (not referring to WS members specifically but just the public in general) not at all.

My heart breaks for both sets of parents for very different reasons.

I have very real concerns that Dan and Misty will not do well with their greiving proccess may be very ugly, self destructive, life threatening.

 

[SapphireSteel]

What lifestyle caused Elizabeth to be harmed?

If we're keeping it simple, then the simple truth is that Lyric was having a short visit with cousins in a different city than where she lived. She went for a bike ride with one of those cousins. Together, they vanished during that short bike ride. The family with whom she was visiting has no "lifestyle" issues that would potentially expose those children to any harm.

If we want to completely complicate the facts and focus on divorced parents that lived in another town, claim that because those divorced parents had personal problems with drugs, then some person they knew followed their daughter to another city where she was visiting her cousins and abducted her and her cousin ... all because the parents that live elsewhere used drugs ... that's about as complicated as it can be. Why would we want to complicate the situation? Why would there be speculation about the 10 year old appearing to be an adult? Keeping it simple is viewing this child abduction for what it is ... two young girls, riding bikes, they vanish, their bikes are in a suspicious location and they are discovered murdered months later.

Some assume it's a stereotypical sexual type abduction.

I do not, I've never believed that it is for a lot of reasons. I need COD before I decide what path KISS takes me, at this point.

 

[georger]

I apologize I only read the last two pages, but has a COD been announced?
thanks!

Nothing official has been released - to my knowledge.

Everything is pure speculation based on an interview, as I see this.

One poster says date of death was July 13th! Dont have the faintest idea
what in the interview stipulates or implies that ?



Nothing official has been released - to my knowledge ?

:banghead:

 

[georger]

otto, I agree that the 7 Bridges Park was likely the site of the sexual assault. LE reported that the location was thought to be only the body dump site. I am sure that there must have been obvious indicators for this conclusion. Imo the area where the sexual attacks occurred would not have been too far away.

.

But nothing official has been released so its ALL pure speculation ?

:banghead:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Nothing official has been released - to my knowledge.

Everything is pure speculation based on an interview, as I see this.

One poster says date of death was July 13th! Dont have the faintest idea
what in the interview stipulates or implies that ?



Nothing official has been released - to my knowledge ?

:banghead:

The date comes from Heather and Drew themselves, IIRC the announcement of her celebration?

I believe if they stated she died that day, they know she did.

:cow:

 

[tlcya]

KISS is KISS except when its easier not to apply it. Which is why I am not a strict follower of the process.

Depite stats, norms, point a usually leads directly to point b, etc., etc.

Life is fluid, nonstatic, messy, sloppy and fraught with contradictions.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Investigators have said that he is not a suspect, so his reluctance to speak wiith police was connected to his criminal activities related to meth and domestic abuse.

But he didn't know what the news was, for all he knew the girls had been found alive. I'm just at a loss to explain why he didn't rush over immediately to learn the fate of his child and his niece. JMO

ETA: I didn't read every post before posting this (argh, I hate it when I do that!) Anyway, I agree that he may have wanted to delay hearing the news that his daughter was found dead. I hadn't thought of that until I read what a couple of you posted about it.

 

[georger]

The date comes from Heather and Drew themselves, IIRC the announcement of her celebration?

I believe if they stated she died that day, they know she did.

:cow:

I repeat: Nothing of an OFFICIAL NATURE has been released.

Until that happens I'm not going to believe or accept anything - period.

This whole thing could turn on a dime, in the space of a nano-second.

And given the fact of Social-Media in this world today, nothing official may ever be released.
There may not even be a trial! The fact nobody has been arrested inclines me to wonder if
ayone will be arrested any time soon...

 

[otto]

Some assume it's a stereotypical sexual type abduction.

I do not, I've never believed that it is for a lot of reasons. I need COD before I decide what path KISS takes me, at this point.

In keeping it simple, how likely is it that some meth head from another city was so mad at two divorced people that he stalked their 10 year old daughter while she was visiting her cousins in another city ... all with the hope that she would just happen to be unsupervised for 15 minutes so she could be abducted? There's nothing simple about that.

 

[Marilynilpa]

The date comes from Heather and Drew themselves, IIRC the announcement of her celebration?

I believe if they stated she died that day, they know she did.

:cow:

The date also appears in the obituary for Elizabeth, below her name.

http://www.meaningfulfunerals.net/fh/obituaries/obituary.cfm?o_id=1867384&fh_id=14409