IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[Elley Mae]

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20339158/2012/12/13/family-of-lyric-cook-planning-memorial-services

Lyric's grandmother, Wylma, tells KWWL they plan to have Lyric cremated. A family member in Dubuque has arranged a special urn to be made for her by a local monastery.

 

[tlcya]

This came from the NG page on FB posted by Mary Wille Close:
The thing I don't understand is there was a lady that posted to a community page on Facebook telling people the day after they disappered that she was going to search the 7 bridges park and wanted people to go with her and that police should look there now why aren't they looking at her as a suspect since she obviously knew where to look. I don't think it was a coencedence that she said that.
This was posted on Monday around 7:02pm.

I fiund that whole FB posting conversation happening about searching there very eer in light of where the girls turned up too.

I have no information that LE hasn't spoken with her and cleared up any doubt as to why she suggested that area as a place to search.

I am always mindful that police and investigators are becoming more and more savvy about monitoring social network chatter about cases.

I would bet money that they know about it and have looked into it.

 

[stillwatersc]

That is a long way to carry the girls. I think they walked there.

 

[otto]

The shaded area is private land. Gunshots in this area in July - when there are no hunters - would attract a lot of unwanted attention.

http://beacon.schneidercorp.com/Application.aspx?AppID=330&LayerID=3621&PageTypeID=1&PageID=2344

 

[otto]

KISS - the most logical occurence.

It's pointless us debating the details of this crime until we know the COD, but this has never been a sexual abduction to me because -

The ease and silence with which the girls disappeared

The behaviours and speech of certain involved parties

The timing of the "abduction".

ETA here's a link on forensic psychology actually written by some forensic pscyhologists who worked for the FBI and were instrumental in developing the science in the first place.

http://www.all-about-forensic-psych...minal-profiling-from-crime-scene-analysis.pdf

KISS = "keep it simple stupid"

Profilers have no better success rate than psychics ... check out the article in the New Yorker.

 

[otto]

That is a long way to carry the girls. I think they walked there.

It's about 4-500 feet.

 

[Elley Mae]

That is a long way to carry the girls. I think they walked there.

A little less than 2 football fields.

well dang, my maps distance must not be working, refer to above post.

 

[TeenyTaurus]

Given that the location where they were found is right next to private land, wouldn't two gun shots on July 13 have caught someone's attention

Um, actually, no. Using a (highly deadly) .22, and sub-sonic ammo, at point blank range up against a body, what noise would occur would NOT sound like a gunshot. In such a remote area, even someone potentially in the area would not associate the noise with a gunshot. Someone familiar with guns and ammunition could know this.

 

[otto]

Um, actually, no. Using a (highly deadly) .22, and sub-sonic ammo, at point blank range up against a body, what noise would occur would NOT sound like a gunshot. In such a remote area, even someone potentially in the area would not associate the noise with a gunshot. Someone familiar with guns and ammunition could know this.

Thankfully, I know nothing about guns, but I do know a gun shot sound when I hear it, and I know that sound carries very well in the country, especially when the shot is about 1000 feet away. So the perp not only carefully planned the location of the bikes and hiding the bodies, but also potentially had some sort of special weapon for shooting people quietly?

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

That's true. If there is evidence on the bones of a cause of death, then perhaps we will eventually learn the cause of the death. If there was strangulation and the hyoid bone was not broken, if there was drowning, or soft tissue knife wounds, then I doubt the cause of death will ever be known.

Graphic but.. if they were murdered where they were found then would it be possible to detect blood in the soil after this amount of time?

 

[otto]

Graphic but.. if they were murdered where they were found then would it be possible to detect blood in the soil after this amount of time?

I would bet that if they bled out where they were found, there would be higher concentrations of iron in the soil, but that's a bit of a guess. What do you think? I wonder if that would happen anyway if they completely decomposed in that location.

 

[SapphireSteel]

KISS = "keep it simple stupid"

Profilers have no better success rate than psychics ... check out the article in the New Yorker.

Apparently LE doesn't agree with you. They employ and train their own.

A snippet of an interview with an actual profiler, S Sargent Sesely, from the RCMP.

“Profiling looks at many factors,” comments Sesely. “But people generally take the path of least resistance. When it comes to geography, people typically seek out areas that they are comfortable in.” When Laval investigators identified their suspect, he did in fact live in the profiled area.

Lots of other good stuff in there too.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/gazette/vol72n2/crime2-eng.htm

 

[otto]

Apparently LE doesn't agree with you.

A snippet of an interview with an actual profiler, for the RCMP.

“Profiling looks at many factors,” comments Sesely. “But people generally take the path of least resistance. When it comes to geography, people typically seek out areas that they are comfortable in.” When Laval investigators identified their suspect, he did in fact live in the profiled area.

Lots of other good stuff in there too.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/gazette/vol72n2/crime2-eng.htm

When it comes to geography, it's a pretty good guess that the perp lives in the vicinity of the abduction, or the location where the bodies were found. If the two locations are far apart, that doesn't help. After the crime, they want to put distance between the crime and themselves as quickly as possible, and that sometimes means leaving the victims close to home so they can get home. Conversly, sometimes, the chosen geography means committing a crime a long distance from home, for example, truckers that commit murder. All of a sudden, there's no rule that is always true. Some commit murder close to home, some don't. Most are familiar with the geography of where the victims are found, but sometimes that familiarity only means they drove by the area a few times. Hindsight in profiling is as hit and miss as hindsight in psychics predictions.

Regarding the capture of Russell Williams (per your linked article), he was identified because he went through a check stop near the murder scene and his tires matched tire tracks on the property from the night of the murder. The location where there were assaults, near his cabin, resulted in his neighbor becoming a suspect, but the real perp was instrumental in point investigators in the direction of his neighbor. Profiling had nothing to do with the arrest. However, after the arrest, police were able to connect other attacks and burglaries with the perp. The perp left his last victim in the exact area where his neighbor frequented.

 

[nikb]

http://www.kcrg.com/streaming2

The LiveStream is up for Elizabeth's celebration. They're still just gathering/getting ready and it's mostly just people milling around while they're trying to figure out good angles for shots.

But someone just came in and told the reporter "the sky outside is pink and purple" (as people are arriving).

:tears:

 

[nikb]

It's starting now - Heather and Drew are greeting people. The visiting is set to go for about 90 minutes, then the worship service. http://www.kcrg.com/streaming2

I can't telll if they're going to leave the LiveStream up the whole time, but it looks like they might.

ETA: it is really, really heartbreaking watching the little girls that I'm assuming are probably friends or classmates of Elizabeth's as they're sharing hugs with the family. Have tissues ready.

 

[TeenyTaurus]

Thankfully, I know nothing about guns, but I do know a gun shot sound when I hear it, and I know that sound carries very well in the country, especially when the shot is about 1000 feet away. So the perp not only carefully planned the location of the bikes and hiding the bodies, but also potentially had some sort of special weapon for shooting people quietly?

I in no way insinuated any "special weapon" in my post, merely that ammunition of a specific type would considerably lessen/alter the sounds of a gunshot. That's even assuming a gun was used at all in the commission of this crime. I, personally, doubt that, but we do not know the COD. I was merely responding to the CONCEPT of the sound of gunfire.

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

I would bet that if they bled out where they were found, there would be higher concentrations of iron in the soil, but that's a bit of a guess. What do you think? I wonder if that would happen anyway if they completely decomposed in that location.

I think there would be something detectable. And I'm thinking that fresh blood from a wound might be different in composition to old blood that has coagulated and decomposed within the body?

 

[Marilynilpa]

From fairly early on, I had a particular theory about what happened to the girls. And it didn't involve an RSO, or a pedophile. I believe SapphireSteel and I had similar theories, and I believe a few others may have shared those theories.

But ever since the bodies were located, I've been thinking about my original theory. If the girls were abducted per my theory, I expected the girls to be killed, and to either (1) be placed out in the open in such a way that they would be found quickly or, (2) be buried/disposed of in such a way that they would never be found.

My reasons for thinking this are:

(1) If the girls were abducted for non-sexual reasons by someone hoping to send a message, how would they know their message was received if the bodies weren't found quickly? No one would know they killed the girls unless their bodies were found. So what would be the purpose of abducting/killing the girls to send a message that might never be received?

(2) If the girls were taken for revenge against someone, I expected they would never be found. We are all familiar with cases where bodies have never been found, decades later. Leaving the bodies in an area visited by hunters or other outdoorsmen would offer no assurance that the bodies wouldn't be found sooner rather than later. If someone wanted revenge against any of the family members for whatever reason, the worst torture IMO would be for the girls to never be found. The families would always be left to wonder, is she safe, is she warm, is she hungry, is she even alive??

Please note that the revenge theory could pertain to both sets of parents, or aunts, uncles, grandparents, anyone. I don't want anyone to think I am referring to any particular person.

In reading what I've typed, I realize I haven't articulated my two motives as clearly as I would like. But I hope they are clear enough for everyone to understand.

And please note that I realize there are MANY different theories. The purpose of my post is not to elicit a list of alternatives to my two possible motives.

But I would enjoy hearing from anyone about these two motives in light of the bodies being found at Seven Bridges. Does this make these two motives less likely? (LOL, I know most of you probably felt they were unlikely from the beginning!)

 

[otto]

I think there would be something detectable. And I'm thinking that fresh blood from a wound might be different in composition to old blood that has coagulated and decomposed within the body?

Hopefully investigators took soil samples to help determine how long the children had been there and cause of death.

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

Hopefully investigators took soil samples to help determine how long the children had been there and cause of death.

I've just found this - http://www.informaticaforense.us/detectingblood.pdf - says luminol can detect blood in soil for over a year.