IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[Elley Mae]

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_e12fed5c-4562-11e2-9bf9-001a4bcf887a.html

Gov. Terry Branstad will meet with parents of three missing or killed Iowa children and a state senator pushing to reinstate the death penalty next week.

Officials in the governor’s office confirmed Branstad will host a meeting at 11 a.m. Monday with Drew Collins, Addonis Hill, Noreen Gosch and Republican state Sen. Kent Sorenson of Milo.

 

[otto]

Nothing official has been released - to my knowledge.

Everything is pure speculation based on an interview, as I see this.

One poster says date of death was July 13th! Dont have the faintest idea
what in the interview stipulates or implies that ?



Nothing official has been released - to my knowledge ?

:banghead:

Information provided by the parents of Elizabeth:

"Elizabeth passed away on Friday, July 13, 2012; she was 8 years old."

http://wcfcourier.com/lifestyles/an...cle_2d8c30ea-4471-11e2-92d2-001a4bcf887a.html

 

[tlcya]

For now I accept the death date given. But untill I get a TOD wndow from ME I do not consider it fact or a factor in theorizing what ocurred or when.

Thats just me.

That said I have always beleived the date of death currently given to be the actual date of death, although official TOD via ME will likely be a window if I am right.

Point being, in the absence of factual knowledge with which to operate, all theores are valid IMO. I am staying open.

 

[otto]

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_e12fed5c-4562-11e2-9bf9-001a4bcf887a.html

Gov. Terry Branstad will meet with parents of three missing or killed Iowa children and a state senator pushing to reinstate the death penalty next week.

Officials in the governor’s office confirmed Branstad will host a meeting at 11 a.m. Monday with Drew Collins, Addonis Hill, Noreen Gosch and Republican state Sen. Kent Sorenson of Milo.

Devout Christians that believe in an eye for an eye? That strikes me as an oxymoron. I thought devout Christians believed in "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I'm pretty sure I heard, during the interview, that the family forgave the murderer. How does forgiving the murderer align with wanting him murdered? This makes no sense to me.

 

[ktgirl]

My feeling is that the ME established the window of time/date of death based on the remains and that the parents were informed of this. We may not hear investigators go on record with it to the media or see the media receive autopsy reports until an arrest is made and/or it goes to trial. But I believe for right now, it's reasonable to think that the family knows what they are talking about.

From following other cases, it seems the ME & LE keep all this info close to the vest until there's an arrest and/or trial (the exception wold be cases in Florida due to the Sunshine Laws). For all we know, they may already have COD but haven't released it to the public. In the Mickey Shunick case, non-family members didn't know the window of the likely TOD until after the arrest was made (this was before her body was found though) and didn't know the COD until Mickey's murderer's confession/plea bargain was made in court (by this time, he had led investiagtors to her remains). Everyone in the community was pretty shocked to hear that she died of a gunshot to the head. When it was read aloud in open court and reported, everyone was so stunned. I'm positive the family knew beforehand, but they kept it quiet and the public didn't know until it was entered as public record and read aloud in court. Lizzie & Lyric's family probably knows a lot more than they can say to the media & public at this time.

 

[SapphireSteel]

KISS is KISS except when its easier not to apply it. Which is why I am not a strict follower of the process.

Depite stats, norms, point a usually leads directly to point b, etc., etc.

Life is fluid, nonstatic, messy, sloppy and fraught with contradictions.

I'm not trying to impose my line of thinking on anyone, its opinion only. It's a different way of thinking which not everyone shares, I cannot help but to see in a straight line and not be wavered by emotion or circumstance...it can make you "blinkered" at times I agree.

However, LE actually use this theory, although they have a different name for it but essentially they apply the principle that a criminal will take the easiest path of action and satisfaction at all times.

In our girls case, LE will be wondering "why here?" same as I did...it was either a bad attempt at hiding them, or a bad attempt at displaying them. Going to that much effort to get them in there (assuming they didn't walk them in) means that the perp chose that site for a reason, which in turn means he's familiar with it and it means something to him and he perhaps had help. And so on.

It is actually one of the basic principles of profiling (although some people don't believe in that either) and what profilers do is analyse what it means when a perp shows behaviour opposite to KISS...that fluidity and contradiction you speak of.

Say a perp goes to the trouble of arranging a body - that means he spends time at the scene - which is opposite to KISS so it is very significant and speaks to motivation.

I'll try to find the link but it's actually very interesting. I have worked in/around LE and investigations all my life so I know a bit about how criminals think, and trust me, they are usually as dumb as ditchwater. Their primary motive is not being caught, so you would assume whoever did this would take more care where they dumped the bodies. They didn't. They didn't even try to bury them. Why not? Were they in a hurry? Were they actually working at the time? All this could go to exploding someone's alibi.

Anyway FWIW, I think the girls will have been killed execution style, either gun, knife, or strangling. I doubt they were sexually assaulted, I think they were driven straight to the site and murdered in the quickest way possible.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I repeat: Nothing of an OFFICIAL NATURE has been released.

Until that happens I'm not going to believe or accept anything - period.

This whole thing could turn on a dime, in the space of a nano-second.

And given the fact of Social-Media in this world today, nothing official may ever be released.
There may not even be a trial! The fact nobody has been arrested inclines me to wonder if
ayone will be arrested any time soon...

georger, I don't believe the date of death, manner of death and cause of death will ever be released to the public unless it comes out in a trial. This is clearly the wish of Heather and Drew Collins. I assume it is also the wish of Misty and Dan Morrissey, although they haven't made any comment to that effect.

I know from your posts that, like me, you really like links to official sources or MSM articles before you accept anything at face value. In this particular case, however, I am willing to accept that Heather and Drew have reason to believe that July 13, 2012 was the last day their daughter was alive. JMO

 

[Marilynilpa]

Devout Christians that believe in an eye for an eye? That strikes me as an oxymoron. I thought devout Christians believed in "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I'm pretty sure I heard, during the interview, that the family forgave the murderer. How does forgiving the murderer align with wanting him murdered? This makes no sense to me.

Unfortunately, some people will try to turn any situation to their advantage. And for pro-death-penalty politicians, what better way to push their agenda than to use the deaths of two little girls.

I find it reprehensible.

ETA: And I would find it surprising if Drew and Heather Collins come out in favor of the death penalty. JMO. The Governor may be meeting with them to get their feelings on the subject. I don't see this meeting as any indication that Drew and Heather are proponents of the death penalty. Again, JMO

 

[SapphireSteel]

Information provided by the parents of Elizabeth:

"Elizabeth passed away on Friday, July 13, 2012; she was 8 years old."

http://wcfcourier.com/lifestyles/an...cle_2d8c30ea-4471-11e2-92d2-001a4bcf887a.html

Thats official enough for me.

 

[borndem]

Rereading articles from the beginning.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...ives-fear-missing-iowa-cousins-were-abducted/

"The area where the bikes were found is fenced on both sides, and it is right where maintenance gate is. It is a spot that looks to me like a trap," Morrissey said. "Somebody could have just come along right then or followed them down. It would have been the worst spot to be in."


bbm, To me this works both ways as in, that same spot would have been the closest and best place to dump the bikes. Look how long it took to find the bikes. Hours! No one wanted to think or believe that the girls would have wondered that far. It doesn't matter who or what said what, the point is it was hours.

I personally feel that they were picked up on the road/street and the bikes were dropped off at that spot at the lake, just a feeling I got. jmo

It would have been interesting if LE did have someone in their radar and were able to "watch" them as the news of the girls being found was released but I seriously do not think they have anyone they suspect. jmo

It could be that they may have found male DNA on one or both of the victims or their clothes, but could not find a match. If they have a suspect, they may be waiting for him to leave his DNA on something (beverage can, cigarette, beverage glass in a bar or restaurant, etc.). That was the key in a case here in NC -- the suspect, who was being watched 24 hours/day, threw a cigarette butt in a public parking lot. LE obtained the butt and within 24 hours, he was arrested & charged & put in the county jail. He was convicted later at trial.

 

[ktgirl]

Anyway FWIW, I think the girls will have been killed execution style, either gun, knife, or strangling. I doubt they were sexually assaulted, I think they were driven straight to the site and murdered in the quickest way possible.

Respectfully snipped by me for space.

I'd like to believe this is how it happened as well as this means a minimal amount of torture when compared to an abduction/rape/murder by a sexual predator (not to say it wasn't awful if it is how it happened).

However, I don't think it's what happened here.

But I hope for the girls, you're right, SapphireSteel, and I am wrong.

 

[tlcya]

SS, my point was not made to negate or argue against your linear thought process or otto's thought process.

I was saying that wihout any facts it is harder to recognize KISS. I cannot say which theories are keeping it simpler than another because with so few facts it is just not knowable which way that though process leads.

People, perps, victims, they are all variables that are messy, individually operating entitiies and KISS also presumes to know what motivates this or that petson prompting this or that action.

Perpetrators are just as disparate in their thought processes and reactions as we are. Victims are as well.

How can I presume to know what is simple in a given moment or circumstance in a case?

ETA

That is what makes kiss so difficult for me to follow.

 

[ktgirl]

It could be that they may have found male DNA on one or both of the victims or their clothes, but could not find a match. If they have a suspect, they may be waiting for him to leave his DNA on something (beverage can, cigarette, beverage glass in a bar or restaurant, etc.). That was the key in a case here in NC -- the suspect, who was being watched 24 hours/day, threw a cigarette butt in a public parking lot. LE obtained the butt and within 24 hours, he was arrested & charged & put in the county jail. He was convicted later at trial.

Or it could also be how the girls' clothes were found. For example, even if there's no soft tissue left to tell of sexual assualt, one can assume if a victim's pants/underwear are down around their ankles that a sexual assault probably happened.

God, I hated typing that.

 

[Marilynilpa]

But nothing official has been released so its ALL pure speculation ?

:banghead:

Everything, other than the fact that the girls were abducted on July 13th and found deceased at Seven Bridges on December 5th, is speculation. LE has not released any other information, nor are they likely to do so.

So without speculation, this thread would be pretty bare. JMO

 

[24Roses]

After the interview yesterday (which I haven't yet completely viewed), I think that we have two new pieces of information. The children's shoes were at the scene and the day they were murdered is given as July 13. That suggests to me that the girls were taken directly to the 7 Bridges park, wearing their shoes, and murdered. From there, I think we know two things: the perp is local (which we pretty much already knew), and the perp had to get back to his life by Saturday. I strongly suspect that the perp has returned to the scene more than once to check out whether the bodies continued to be difficult to find. I also doubt that anyone starts their criminal career by abducting two young girls, so this person is on someone's radar. I would bet that this person travels with a powerful flashlight in the vehicle to navigate the area at night. I would also bet that this person has mentioned the park in casual conversation during the last 5 months ... and shown too much interest in the investigation. Hopefully there will be an arrest soon.

BBM-I also bet that this person is keeping newspaper articles about the girls & maybe even taping news reports & press conferences, etc. I hope someone doesn't discover all of this in their house years from now.

 

[nikb]

I'm surprised that Elizabeths flip flops were found. They don't stay on the feet well and if the body was carried wouldn't they have fallen off?

In case this hasn't already been clarified, it was Lyric's flip flops, Elizabeth's shoes.
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/07/16/missing-iowa-cousins-vanish-while-riding-bikes

"Elizabeth Collins is 4’1” tall, weighs 80 lbs, with sandy hair and blue eyes. She was last seen wearing a white shirt, shorts and black tennis shoes or high tops.

Lyric Cook is 4’11” tall, weighs 145 lbs, with brown chin-length hair, blue eyes, tanned skin, and a mole on the back of her neck the size of a dime. She was last seen wearing a light green shirt, shorts, and black flip flops that form a Sesame Street character when put together. "

Either way, I agree with you it's hard to believe the flip flops stayed on either girl, if they were carried. It makes me lean towards them being walked to where they were found. Or, it also occurs to me that maybe the flip flops were found "with" the girls but not necessarily on her feet.

 

[otto]

I'm not trying to impose my line of thinking on anyone, its opinion only. It's a different way of thinking which not everyone shares, I cannot help but to see in a straight line and not be wavered by emotion or circumstance...it can make you "blinkered" at times I agree.

However, LE actually use this theory, although they have a different name for it but essentially they apply the principle that a criminal will take the easiest path of action and satisfaction at all times.

In our girls case, LE will be wondering "why here?" same as I did...it was either a bad attempt at hiding them, or a bad attempt at displaying them. Going to that much effort to get them in there (assuming they didn't walk them in) means that the perp chose that site for a reason, which in turn means he's familiar with it and it means something to him and he perhaps had help. And so on.

It is actually one of the basic principles of profiling (although some people don't believe in that either) and what profilers do is analyse what it means when a perp shows behaviour opposite to KISS...that fluidity and contradiction you speak of.

Say a perp goes to the trouble of arranging a body - that means he spends time at the scene - which is opposite to KISS so it is very significant and speaks to motivation.

I'll try to find the link but it's actually very interesting. I have worked in/around LE and investigations all my life so I know a bit about how criminals think, and trust me, they are usually as dumb as ditchwater. Their primary motive is not being caught, so you would assume whoever did this would take more care where they dumped the bodies. They didn't. They didn't even try to bury them. Why not? Were they in a hurry? Were they actually working at the time? All this could go to exploding someone's alibi.

Anyway FWIW, I think the girls will have been killed execution style, either gun, knife, or strangling. I doubt they were sexually assaulted, I think they were driven straight to the site and murdered in the quickest way possible.

The primary motive is not "not getting caught". The primary motive is commiting the crime. After it is done, the objective is to put distance between themselves and the murder. That often means getting home and giving the impression that everything is normal as quickly as possible. That can mean that the bodies are left fairly close to home.

I don't agree that profilers look for behavior opposite to a simple crime scene to draw conclusions. In nearly every case, there are clues that indicate one thing or another, such as whether the perp has high or low confidence. It is always assumed that the location is convenient for the perp.

Given that the bodies were well hidden in a remote location, investigators will draw conclusions about the perp based on that remote location, but they will also factor in the area where the bikes were found.

Given that the location where they were found is right next to private land, wouldn't two gun shots on July 13 have caught someone's attention?

You often mention "keep it simple". Could you please describe what this means?

Actual criminal profiling:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-11-21/news/35289361_1_profilers-serial-killers-fbi-expert

A good insight into criminal profiling:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/11/12/071112fa_fact_gladwell

 

[24Roses]

Here is the link for the live stream of Elizabeth's Life and Love Celebration today.

http://www.heartlandvineyard.org/

It has been said that the Collins will be giving an interview today at 4:15. You can watch this on KCRG.com or the Waterloo Courier website. I'm not sure about KWWL. If the Heartland Vineyard website isn't working for the service, that is also aired on on KCRG.com, KWWL, & the Waterloo Courier website.

 

[Emi]

This came from the NG page on FB posted by Mary Wille Close:
The thing I don't understand is there was a lady that posted to a community page on Facebook telling people the day after they disappered that she was going to search the 7 bridges park and wanted people to go with her and that police should look there now why aren't they looking at her as a suspect since she obviously knew where to look. I don't think it was a coencedence that she said that.
This was posted on Monday around 7:02pm.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The primary motive is not "not getting caught". The primary motive is commiting the crime. After it is done, the objective is to put distance between themselves and the murder. That often means getting home and giving the impression that everything is normal as quickly as possible. That can mean that the bodies are left fairly close to home.

I don't agree that profilers look for behavior opposite to a simple crime scene to draw conclusions. In nearly every case, there are clues that indicate one thing or another, such as whether the perp has high or low confidence. It is always assumed that the location is convenient for the perp.

Given that the bodies were well hidden in a remote location, investigators will draw conclusions about the perp based on that remote location, but they will also factor in the area where the bikes were found.

Given that the location where they were found is right next to private land, wouldn't two gun shots on July 13 have caught someone's attention?

You often mention "keep it simple". Could you please describe what this means?

Actual criminal profiling:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-11-21/news/35289361_1_profilers-serial-killers-fbi-expert

A good insight into criminal profiling:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/11/12/071112fa_fact_gladwell

KISS - the most logical occurence.

It's pointless us debating the details of this crime until we know the COD, but this has never been a sexual abduction to me because -

The ease and silence with which the girls disappeared

The behaviours and speech of certain involved parties

The timing of the "abduction".

ETA here's a link on forensic psychology actually written by some forensic pscyhologists who worked for the FBI and were instrumental in developing the science in the first place.

http://www.all-about-forensic-psych...minal-profiling-from-crime-scene-analysis.pdf