IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23
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BBM: in case it hasn't been posted already, here it is: http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Family-of-Elizabeth-Collins-Speak-About-Case-183431901.html
Still no luck on the live stream.
stillwatersc
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I don't believe the DP is a deterrent to anyone who has their mind set on murder or other violence. I never have. I don't think the DP in Iowa would have made any difference for these girls.
Putting aside this case, I'm not for the DP simply because too many errors are made. I had my cousin murdered in a home invasion shooting (my aunt and uncle were also against the DP in that case) and a close friend stalked and gunned down in a parking lot. Lots of thoughts have gone through my head because all of those criminals ARE guilty but I still remained against it.
OTOH, I'm very much pro LWOP and countries with no LWOP offend ME. They put the rights of the 'poor criminal' over the victims. Simply serving 10 to 25 for murder doesn't cut it. But that is how a lot of supposedly civilized countries operate. No one has a perfect system, and improvements need to be made in how crimes are prioritized and sentenced. People in the US can serve more time for selling dope than a person serves for murder in another country. Unreal.
Eta: I do realize the DP is used for bargaining and if it is not available for the most heinous crimes,, what do we bargain with? Lwop? That is unacceptable to me in most cases. Sigh.
Without the DP for bargaining, would LE have ever found Mickey Shunick or Sam Koenig?
I'm sorry for the quick OT but I so needed a laugh this morning, and thought others might too. Your first comment about Texas reminded me of Ron White (one of the Blue Collar Comedy guys). He talked about other states taking years to carry out the DP, but "in Texas... we put in an Express Lane."
About the DP topic personally I'm still not sure if I'm for or against it, but I can see both sides and can see how it could fit in with various religious or personal value systems. I am MOST DEFINITELY against the fake "prison time" though. I get the need for plea bargaining, but once someone's convicted, serving a year or two on what was originally 10 or more years worth of charges is completely ridiculous, IMO. It never made sense to me how someone could get multiple "life sentences" until I understood the whole fake prison time thing. I mean seriously, in the Jaycee Dugard case the monster Phillip Garrido was sentenced to 430+ years "to life" What?!? They expect he might live more than 430 years, or is the prison system so messed up that they realize 430 "prison years" might not even cover the rest of his life? I still fear he'll get out one day. With the DP at least we can know without a doubt that won't happen. If LWOP truly meant the monsters could never, ever get out to hurt anyone else, I think I'd feel differently. For me it's about no one else being subjected to this person's horror again. I don't much care how exactly that happens. All MOO.
I was just so hoping there would be a link showing the 1-2 hour coverage prior to the Life and Love Celebration; thanks to those of you who answered my question. If anyone does ever happen across the live stream coverage prior to the celebration, please post it, thank you very much. I believe in the Life and Love Celebration I saw WC, was MM or DM present?
In reading one of the news articles, it was noted LE was having difficulities (not exact wording) locating DM to update him on the girls and family reported he was "scared" due to his pending charges on other issues. Hmmmm scared? Also, I can't locate the link now, but if I recall correctly, he was placed under supervision after the girls disappearance, so shouldn't LE have been able to locate him quite easily?
Also wondering what time the media said MM contacted DM regarding the girls disappearance/bikes being found on July 13, 2012? If I remember correctly, it was around 3 or 4 pm??
Just my ideas on things and just my opinions/curiosity...
In reading one of the news articles, it was noted LE was having difficulities (not exact wording) locating DM to update him on the girls and family reported he was "scared" due to his pending charges on other issues. Hmmmm scared? Also, I can't locate the link now, but if I recall correctly, he was placed under supervision after the girls disappearance, so shouldn't LE have been able to locate him quite easily?
Also wondering what time the media said MM contacted DM regarding the girls disappearance/bikes being found on July 13, 2012? If I remember correctly, it was around 3 or 4 pm??
Just my ideas on things and just my opinions/curiosity...
Jacie Estes
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Regarding the death penalty, very few westernized countries, if any, agree that people that murder should be murdered. The eye for an eye concept seems archaic but is still widely practiced in places like Iran, Iraq, Libya, and the United States. Given the leaps that have been made in the fields of neurology, psychiatry and psychology, surely someone has figured out how to rehabilitate people that are so damaged that they commit murder.
I was anti-death penalty until my cousin was murdered.
I don't believe that someone who can walk up to a 16 year old in a parking lot, put a gun to his head and pull the trigger, putting a bullet in my cousin's brain, so he can steal his truck, can be rehabilitated. This person also shot and killed my cousin's girlfriend. Where is the rehabilitation for my cousin? For his girlfriend? Does he get his life back? Does she? The answer is no.
IMHO
Concerning this case, I do believe that the person who took the lives of Elizabeth and Lyric should, at the very least, never see daylight again. I respect Heather's thoughts and comments on the murderer; I'm just not as good a person as she. I do not forgive the one who took my cousin's life.
Grandma was there, but I'm not sure if Misty was there. I'm sure Dan was not. My thoughts exactly when I read that in the paper - I thought Dan was supposed to be supervised?? And it's a real shame that he was not given the news prior to it being released publicly.
Marilynilpa
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I'll keep my eyes open for the live stream coverage, maybe someone might have recorded it and posted in on YouTube.
I saw Wylma at the memorial, but didn't see Misty or Dan. I heard Tammy was there, but I didn't see her.
Dan is on supervised release, IIRC, but I don't know if that means LE is aware of his location 24/7. Maybe someone knows the answer and would be kind enough to let us know.
Many posters have pointed out that Dan may not have spoken to LE because he wanted to avoid hearing bad news about Lyric.
Regarding when Dan was called, here is a quote from Tammy Brousseau in a Nancy Grace interview:
"So when Misty had -- when they`d found the bikes and called us and told us, Misty was standing here with us, Misty immediately called Dan and Dan called his mother. She was at work. She took work off, and she hurried up and picked Dan and Dylan up and came down here and met us to start the search and all of that for the kids, yes."
The bikes were found around 4 p.m., so if Misty called Dan immediately after the bikes were found, that would be 4 p.m. or thereabouts.
Hope this answers your questions!
ETA: Ooops, I forgot to give you the link to the transcript, in case you want to read it all.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/19/ng.01.html
chicagofa13
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Those crimes were in states with the DP. So clearly no deterrent to either of them. And do we know if they used the threat of DP over either murderer? I admit not being very familiar with Mickey's case other than he was caught for something else as well and led them to Mickey; and Keyes was, imo, enjoying flaunting his intelligence by talking. He killed himself so death was not his issue.
I'm a Christian but I have no trouble with what I believe. And as a family member of a victim, I feel I've earned the right to that.
As for someone terrorizing the Elizabeth and Lyric's familiies from prison, even with the DP it would be years and years before they were ever executed. I would like to see some stats on how many criminals terrorize their victims from prison. Yes, I know it happens, and I know hits are arranged. Almost every one I've seen involved gangs and mafia too. That's their culture in and out of prison.
not_my_kids
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Let me revise the timeline on that transcript. I have been distracted from getting the video transcribed in light of the shooting in Connecticut. I need a little while to process what has happened there, and once I have my mind cleared, I'll go back to transcribing. I hate to leave people hanging, and I will get it done, it's just a little hard for me to focus right now. I need to hug my kids for a little while, and then I'll get back at it.
BBM: apologies if I'm out of line but please, keep hugging your kids. A transcript isn't nearly as important.
Marilynilpa
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(((HUGS))) Love on your kids, the transcript can wait.
ETA: Looks like nikb and I have our thoughts in sync.
SouthernMom
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I support the DP for certain crimes, and I don't think it conflicts with my faith in a Christian God.
That being said I should add that I have an unusual view of death in that I believe it is not the worst thing that can happen to someone. We will all die eventually. It can't be avoided. A whole genre of art, called memento mori, was created to remind us of our mortality and the decision we must make regarding eternity, if we choose to believe there is one.
I do believe that what happened to these two young girls and how it happened is a terrible tragedy and whoever committed this crime should be given the DP. Not only to keep him from killing again, inside or outside of prison, but also to keep him from passing on his flawed DNA. I don't know enough about gene codes, neural connections, and nature vs. nurture to know for sure that this could be passed down a generation or two but why take a chance?
That being said I should add that I have an unusual view of death in that I believe it is not the worst thing that can happen to someone. We will all die eventually. It can't be avoided. A whole genre of art, called memento mori, was created to remind us of our mortality and the decision we must make regarding eternity, if we choose to believe there is one.
I do believe that what happened to these two young girls and how it happened is a terrible tragedy and whoever committed this crime should be given the DP. Not only to keep him from killing again, inside or outside of prison, but also to keep him from passing on his flawed DNA. I don't know enough about gene codes, neural connections, and nature vs. nurture to know for sure that this could be passed down a generation or two but why take a chance?
GrainneDhu
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The problem is that when you take away someone's freedom, restrict their personal relationships and remove the vast majority of their personal possessions, you've just created someone who has nothing to lose.
People who have nothing to lose are incredibly dangerous. They will try anything because, really, what have they got to lose?
The rewards for good time are to give most prisoners something, something they don't want to lose. Something important enough to hold onto throughout the daily hardships, dangers and humiliations of being in prison.
The system of giving rewards for good behaviour has lowered the incidence of violence in prison overall. It makes prisons a marginally safer environment for the prison staff to work in.
Life is all about trade-offs. If we want to put more people in jail or prison than any other country on earth, it means that we've got to have more people working in prisons than any other country on earth. And it's a risky job. Can we even afford to make it even more risky? At a time when we're talking about how we may not even be able to continue supporting disabled veterans?
GrainneDhu
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Regarding the death penalty, very few westernized countries, if any, agree that people that murder should be murdered. The eye for an eye concept seems archaic but is still widely practiced in places like Iran, Iraq, Libya, and the United States. Given the leaps that have been made in the fields of neurology, psychiatry and psychology, surely someone has figured out how to rehabilitate people that are so damaged that they commit murder.
The therapeutic solution is not yet fully known, so far as I know.
However, without people to experiment with, how will we ever evaluate therapeutic approaches and find solutions?
I'm not advocating using prisoners as guinea pigs (unethical to the extreme) but so far as I know, there are no identical people outside of prison to someone who would kill two young girls. So, as I see it, it is somewhat analogous to AIDS; in the beginning of retroviral therapy, they did have to experiment on human subjects but those subjects had no other options. Right now, prisoners have no other options than to rot in prison.
Marilynilpa
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Would there be any ethical dilemma if inmates voluntary underwent testing? Assuming they were willing, understood what they were undertaking and were not getting any kind of financial gain by doing this?
The reason I ask is that I have read several instances where men on death row have expressed a desire to understand themselves, their actions and the causes of those actions. If testing, both medical and psychological, would help them understand things, and it also benefited society at large, why shouldn't this be done?
The reason I ask is that I have read several instances where men on death row have expressed a desire to understand themselves, their actions and the causes of those actions. If testing, both medical and psychological, would help them understand things, and it also benefited society at large, why shouldn't this be done?
GrainneDhu
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Such testing is already being done. There's several projects, for instance, that use single scan brain scans to check prisoners' brains for abnormalities.
I think that judging whether experimentation on any population, not just prison inmates, has to be done on a case by case basis. It's pretty easy to say that single scan brain scans are ethical because they are relatively noninvasive: the subject lies on a cot with their head surrounded by this big machine, they are given instructions to look at pictures or to think of certain things, then there's a loud clanking noise and it's done.
Doing surgery is clearly extremely invasive; I believe the anticipated benefits would have to be high and the potential side effects low before such an experiment could be called ethical.
And in between are a whole bunch of tests and potential treatments.
GrainneDhu I think you know from my past posts including those about my friend/husband's friend who was in prison for a non-violent crime, I agree with you in general on the prisons and prisoners, and dangers of creating someone with nothing left to lose. Our friend who was in prison is recovering, slowly, having a hard time finding work, and it drives me nuts that he was there as long as he was for non-violent prescription drug violations while even rapists were let out in less time. To this day I'm surprised how much just getting the local daily paper that we sent meant to him. I also don't think he'd EVER hurt a child. He might go to jail for hurting someone who did... but I can't even fathom him doing something like that himself. Had they kept him the whole 6 or 7 years he was originally sentenced to I have no doubt he'd be a complete mess now.
But with that said, JMO but rewards for good behavior are one thing, while straight up lies about sentences are another. I remember in the "old days" (geez I never thought I'd use that phrase) you used to hear "he got 10 years, with the possibility of 7 with good behaviour." Just a hypothetical example. Even if I disagreed with the amount of time, that type of sentence didn't bother me. Gives the incentive but also realistic expectations to the public and the prisoner. FWIW friend who served prison time even agrees, he said the sentences are basically a joke. That may just be in California, not sure if it's state specific, or for that matter it may just be the person I know, but it makes sense from what I've read.
It's a mess. I know there's no perfect way, no perfect system. IMO anything we can do to keep these freaks away from kids (and adults for that matter) is important though.
I so hope they catch whoever did this to Elizabeth and Lyric, and that he/she/they are kept away from others* and punished to the fullest extent, whatever that means.
*ETA: kept from others OTHER THAN being wrongly persecuted or punished themselves. Important part of the puzzle IMO.
cindersoot
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I watched the Elizabeth memorial/party. It was very touching. I can't help but think that FBI wanted this memorial to happen.
#1. Get the killer there.
#2. Fill him with guilt and maybe he will confess.
#3. If he sees that Elizabeth was a person and not an object, he will confess.
#1. Get the killer there.
#2. Fill him with guilt and maybe he will confess.
#3. If he sees that Elizabeth was a person and not an object, he will confess.
Marilynilpa
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In the time Lyric and Elizabeth have been missing, they were in the news often, there were vigils, fundraisers, etc. The killer had to have seen that these girls were people, not objects, IMO.
Someone capable of abducting and killing Lyric and Lizzie probably doesn't have the ability to be filled with guilt - if so, I doubt he would have remained silent for five months. JMO.
But I sure hope I'm wrong . . .
He might confess after being arrested, if it benefits him to do so.
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