IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[GrainneDhu]

So much sadness, so many innocent children are gone.

Here's an article about our two girls:

Chief Smock told KWWL sex offender teams from the state Division of Criminal Investigation are helping interview people of interest, but he says no one has been detained and those interviewed are not any closer to being suspects than anyone else.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20351247/...chief-squashes-rumors-of-arrest-in-girls-case

BBM

I wonder if they are re-interviewing RSO's, or if someone new is on their radar?

I hope they're not just re-interviewing RSOs. Every time there is a sensational murder or murders, people say "this couldn't be the perp's first time..." And yet, it can be the perp's first time.

The case that immediately comes to mind is Jessica Ridgeway. The perp in her case turned out to be a 17 year old who had apparently made one attempt on a jogger about 4 months previous but hadn't been caught or charged for it.

Opportunity is such a factor in crimes like these. I really think that the perp was out trolling for one victim but wasn't about to turn down two victims when the opportunity arose.

 

[Dr. Know?]

So much sadness, so many innocent children are gone.

Here's an article about our two girls:

Chief Smock told KWWL sex offender teams from the state Division of Criminal Investigation are helping interview people of interest, but he says no one has been detained and those interviewed are not any closer to being suspects than anyone else.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20351247/...chief-squashes-rumors-of-arrest-in-girls-case

BBM

I wonder if they are re-interviewing RSO's, or if someone new is on their radar?

On the Cedar Valley Mugshot fb yesterday, Smock was copied from the Buckling down fb or Justice for Elizabeth & Lyric fb or one of them...too many now.

Smock dispelled the rumor that the RSO that chelsea linked, CF, was a person of focus basically. Not off scott free but he said they had checked in on him, questioned him but he's not a suspect.

I took that as a way to stop the vigilante approach to the fb. It was getting ridiculous. LE needs to handle this. You can't hang a man if you don't know he's even guilty even if his shoe fits.

(darn but there's always a reason thank goodness)...

 

[Marilynilpa]

I hope they're not just re-interviewing RSOs. Every time there is a sensational murder or murders, people say "this couldn't be the perp's first time..." And yet, it can be the perp's first time.

The case that immediately comes to mind is Jessica Ridgeway. The perp in her case turned out to be a 17 year old who had apparently made one attempt on a jogger about 4 months previous but hadn't been caught or charged for it.

Opportunity is such a factor in crimes like these. I really think that the perp was out trolling for one victim but wasn't about to turn down two victims when the opportunity arose.

I certainly never would have suspected a 17 year old in the murder of Jessica Ridgeway. I feel this is one guy who would have kept on killing, if he'd gotten away with Jessica's abduction/dismemberment/murder.

I hope LE isn't focusing solely on RSOs because, as you said, this could be the perp's first time.

I had one thought about the girls on their bikes. In interviews with Heather and Drew, it was stated that Lizzie and Lyric argued like sisters. They would fuss and fight with each other all day long, but when it was time for Lyric to go home, Lizzie always wanted her to spend the night.

I wonder if Lizzie and Lyric decided to race their bikes to the lake - a little 'sisterly' competition to see who was faster. One of the girls pulled ahead of the other on the lake trail, was seen by the perp and yanked off her bike. (I remember a previous post where you indicated how easy that would be to do). The perp didn't realize she wasn't alone, and the other girl came upon them. So he took both girls.

Just a random thought brought about by the comments about Lyric and Lizzie's relationship. And the fact that on the surveillance video released of the two girls from the auction house, it seemed like they may have been racing.

JMO

 

[Marilynilpa]

On the Cedar Valley Mugshot fb yesterday, Smock was copied from the Buckling down fb or Justice for Elizabeth & Lyric fb or one of them...too many now.

Smock dispelled the rumor that the RSO that chelsea linked, CF, was a person of focus basically. Not off scott free but he said they had checked in on him, questioned him but he's not a suspect.

I took that as a way to stop the vigilante approach to the fb. It was getting ridiculous. LE needs to handle this. You can't hang a man if you don't know he's even guilty even if his shoe fits.

(darn but there's always a reason thank goodness)...

There were a few coincidences regarding that RSO, CF. The one that really had me wondering was his birthdate - one day before the girls were taken.

If he has been cleared then I hope the FB comments about him stop - there did seem to be a vigilante feel to many of them.

A convicted pedophile doesn't deserve any sympathy, IMO, but he also shouldn't be railroaded for something he did not do. Although it is flawed at times, we have to rely on our justice system to handle such things.

 

[georger]

People who have nothing to lose are incredibly dangerous. They will try anything because, really, what have they got to lose?

.[/quote]

Things sometimes get out of control, from what started as a more minor
event. For example, someone takes liberties with the kids, then vulnerable
not wishing to face the consequences takes them hostage not knowing
what else to do ... then time passes and things get even worse, the
consequences build, and at length the only way out seems to be a
homicide. It would seem totally irrational to everyone else - to the
victimiser it can become overwhelming and a necessity, self serving and
myopic, but one possible way out. Some of our fellow humans are not
great thinkers!

Lacking hardened criminals to consider, who would qualify under these
'diminished capacity' circumstances.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I certainly never would have suspected a 17 year old in the murder of Jessica Ridgeway. I feel this is one guy who would have kept on killing, if he'd gotten away with Jessica's abduction/dismemberment/murder.

I hope LE isn't focusing solely on RSOs because, as you said, this could be the perp's first time.

I had one thought about the girls on their bikes. In interviews with Heather and Drew, it was stated that Lizzie and Lyric argued like sisters. They would fuss and fight with each other all day long, but when it was time for Lyric to go home, Lizzie always wanted her to spend the night.

I wonder if Lizzie and Lyric decided to race their bikes to the lake - a little 'sisterly' competition to see who was faster. One of the girls pulled ahead of the other on the lake trail, was seen by the perp and yanked off her bike. (I remember a previous post where you indicated how easy that would be to do). The perp didn't realize she wasn't alone, and the other girl came upon them. So he took both girls.

Just a random thought brought about by the comments about Lyric and Lizzie's relationship. And the fact that on the surveillance video released of the two girls from the auction house, it seemed like they may have been racing.

JMO

Fairly early on in the Jessica Ridgeway case I theorised that the perp was young, closer to 20 than to 30. I was just playing the statistics, no more.

That is a very interesting thought about one girl being ahead of the other. I had wondered if they might have been racing but hadn't gone so far with it. I think it is very possible that one girl was in the lead when the perp made his move and then the other girl was taken as well.

The part about Lizzie and Lyric bickering all day long, then wanting to spend the night together made me smile. It was just such a kid moment.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone could remember that the love they have for one another is more transcendent than the every day disagreements? In other words, let's live more like kids.

 

[georger]

I hope they're not just re-interviewing RSOs. Every time there is a sensational murder or murders, people say "this couldn't be the perp's first time..." And yet, it can be the perp's first time.

The case that immediately comes to mind is Jessica Ridgeway. The perp in her case turned out to be a 17 year old who had apparently made one attempt on a jogger about 4 months previous but hadn't been caught or charged for it.

Opportunity is such a factor in crimes like these. I really think that the perp was out trolling for one victim but wasn't about to turn down two victims when the opportunity arose.

By all accounts the girls were out riding their bikes oblivious to any threat
(normal day), when caught on the video we've all seen. However, several
observers of that video have remarked at how 'fast (?) the girls whisk by
in the frame of view. (I havent calculated the actual speed the one bike
is traveling on the video). Does it strike anyone else the girls were going
by at an unusual speed? Could the girls have been running from something
already when caught on that vid ? Does one of the girls look behind her
in that video?

 

[GrainneDhu]

By all accounts the girls were out riding their bikes oblivious to any threat
(normal day), when caught on the video we've all seen. However, several
observers of that video have remarked at how 'fast (?) the girls whisk by
in the frame of view. (I havent calculated the actual speed the one bike
is traveling on the video). Does it strike anyone else the girls were going
by at an unusual speed? Could the girls have been running from something
already when caught on that vid ? Does one of the girls look behind her
in that video?

I have a visual impairment, so when I saw that video I had to say "well, I'll take LE word for it that there are two bicyclists shown!"

I think they were racing away from something at the time but it wasn't a perpetrator. The Collins house is just barely outside of the frame of the video and I think the two girls were hoping to get in a little more bicycle riding if Grandma didn't see them.

If they felt threatened in that video, I think they would have made a beeline for the Collins house rather than ride by it.

I think two young girls were up to some innocent mischief that day and the worst happened.

 

[TeenyTaurus]

By all accounts the girls were out riding their bikes oblivious to any threat
(normal day), when caught on the video we've all seen. However, several
observers of that video have remarked at how 'fast (?) the girls whisk by
in the frame of view. (I havent calculated the actual speed the one bike
is traveling on the video). Does it strike anyone else the girls were going
by at an unusual speed? Could the girls have been running from something
already when caught on that vid ? Does one of the girls look behind her
in that video?

I noticed it pretty much right off, even watching that video over and over, and taking into account the tendencies of these videos to be a bit yerky-jerky and off-timed due to low frame rates. I watched carefully, as well, to see if they were standing up on the pedals, but I don't think so, just leaning into it, if you will. Still, they were going pretty fast, imho.

I will admit, I have paid a lot more attention to the kids in my small (and relatively flat) town afterwards. Seems rather typical that girls about their age ride fast sitting down, while the boys tend to stand on the pedals. Still, kids that age don't tend to sustain that speed for long. I tend to wonder if it is as much attention span as merely exertion.

I guess my point there is, unless they had full intention (or at least one of them, the other following) to ride as far as a complete loop of Evansdale, which is possible I suppose, the speed and direction indicated to me more a "last final race around the block" before both knew they were to be home. It just stuck me as odd that Wylma would get as worried as she did as quickly as she did, with that tape to back her recollections.

 

[georger]

I have a visual impairment, so when I saw that video I had to say "well, I'll take LE word for it that there are two bicyclists shown!"

I think they were racing away from something at the time but it wasn't a perpetrator. The Collins house is just barely outside of the frame of the video and I think the two girls were hoping to get in a little more bicycle riding if Grandma didn't see them.

If they felt threatened in that video, I think they would have made a beeline for the Collins house rather than ride by it.

I think two young girls were up to some innocent mischief that day and the worst happened.

Maybe they were going home to Grandma's and encountered something
outside her house they ran from ?

 

[georger]

I noticed it pretty much right off, even watching that video over and over, and taking into account the tendencies of these videos to be a bit yerky-jerky and off-timed due to low frame rates. I watched carefully, as well, to see if they were standing up on the pedals, but I don't think so, just leaning into it, if you will. Still, they were going pretty fast, imho.

I will admit, I have paid a lot more attention to the kids in my small (and relatively flat) town afterwards. Seems rather typical that girls about their age ride fast sitting down, while the boys tend to stand on the pedals. Still, kids that age don't tend to sustain that speed for long. I tend to wonder if it is as much attention span as merely exertion.

I guess my point there is, unless they had full intention (or at least one of them, the other following) to ride as far as a complete loop of Evansdale, which is possible I suppose, the speed and direction indicated to me more a "last final race around the block" before both knew they were to be home. It just stuck me as odd that Wylma would get as worried as she did as quickly as she did, with that tape to back her recollections.

Why would she get worried if the kids are only a few minutes late, if they
are only riding 'around the block', and going by the house time after time ?
Was she watching? Had she seen them go by once already? Twice? What
is she worried about if this is an ordinary day and an ordinary bike ride ???

I wonder how well that video has been analysed (frame by frame) and by who?

 

[TeenyTaurus]

Maybe they were going home to Grandma's and encountered something
outside her house they ran from ?

Well, for what it's worth, that trip one way is approximately 3.6 miles. And one kinda scary bridge.

 

[Snowbunny]

So much sadness, so many innocent children are gone.

Here's an article about our two girls:

Chief Smock told KWWL sex offender teams from the state Division of Criminal Investigation are helping interview people of interest, but he says no one has been detained and those interviewed are not any closer to being suspects than anyone else.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20351247/...chief-squashes-rumors-of-arrest-in-girls-case

BBM

I wonder if they are re-interviewing RSO's, or if someone new is on their radar?

If LE is re-interviewing RSO then that pretty much tells us that they suspect the girls were raped which I figured all along was the motive for abducting them in the first place.

 

[georger]

Well, for what it's worth, that trip one way is approximately 3.6 miles. And one kinda scary bridge.

Around the Grandmother's block is 3.6 miles?

 

[Dr. Know?]

I truely don't think mister pedo should be allowed in any childs neighborhood. Nor his buddies. Keep them farther away, like an island of all adult men and the women who abuse kids. This is for all mister pedo's in all towns. Far away. Not a legal 1000', what does that do? Attract the unconvicted molester? Like who in their right mind are going to let Uncle Pervy in their neighborhood area. I'm not. jmo Not my area at least.

Nor the landlords who rent to them (re: ron cummings area and michael paramores area (sp)

 

[TeenyTaurus]

Why would she get worried if the kids are only a few minutes late, if they
are only riding 'around the block', and going by the house time after time ?
Was she watching? Had she seen them go by once already? Twice? What
is she worried about if this is an ordinary day and an ordinary bike ride ???

IIRC, WC had seen the girls doing just that, riding around and around the house and parking lots there, and I believe even called to them to come in. As to which was first, however, the camera capturing them, or her seeing them in the parking lot of Lederman's, I am not certain of, but it does seem very close in time of one another (minutes, at best). Also, WC has stated that the two were in and out, leaving juice on the counter, etc., then 15-20 minutes with no sign of them, when they knew they were to stay close, and be home within that general timeframe.

If those two did take off for Meyers Lake, or even just the southern end of Evansdale, they were 'breaking the rules.' That age, very possible. Just that a few other subtle things that day make me go "Hm" on that.

 

[TeenyTaurus]

Around the Grandmother's block is 3.6 miles?

Grandmother doesn't live on Brovan where they were that afternoon, the Collins' do. GM's house is 3.6 miles away.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Around the Grandmother's block is 3.6 miles?

The video was located very close to Drew and Heather Collins's house.

Wylma Cook actually lives a couple miles away, in Waterloo. She was over at the Collins house to help watch kids while Heather went to medical appointments, etc.

Heather's implanted defibrillator was malfunctioning (and you'd be horrified if you knew how common that is...), so she was getting ready for surgery to remove the defibrillator, re-calibrate it and then re-implant it.

 

[TeenyTaurus]

I truely don't think mister pedo should be allowed in any childs neighborhood. Nor his buddies. Keep them farther away, like an island of all adult men and the women who abuse kids. This is for all mister pedo's in all towns. Far away. Not a legal 1000', what does that do? Attract the unconvicted molester? Like who in their right mind are going to let Uncle Pervy in their neighborhood area. I'm not. jmo Not my area at least.

The VAST majority of sex offenders will openly admit, to your face, their is no "cure" or punishment that will change their ways, period. So I could not agree with you more on that one. It only takes ONE, ONE TIME, to be completely unacceptable, imho. Pedo's do not CARE what the rest of us think, either. It isn't about "sex," it is about predation, assault, violence, control.
A really crowded island, I don't care. One surrounded by shark infested waters.

 

[nikb]

By all accounts the girls were out riding their bikes oblivious to any threat
(normal day), when caught on the video we've all seen. However, several
observers of that video have remarked at how 'fast (?) the girls whisk by
in the frame of view. (I havent calculated the actual speed the one bike
is traveling on the video). Does it strike anyone else the girls were going
by at an unusual speed? Could the girls have been running from something
already when caught on that vid ? Does one of the girls look behind her
in that video?

I'm behind... again.. :blush: but I've wondered this numerous times. I've seen it speculated they were racing or riding super fast, but I just don't see it. And I see two different creepy shadowy individuals coming out, so I'm not just ignoring things in the video. I think they were cruising around...