IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[palaminodee]

And you are correct Mjskit, it could have been someone they crossed paths with from the dealing of the drugs as well.
(forgot to add that scenario)
In that photo of Dan against the tree, I sense a feeling of dread, maybe guilt?
Also could be why the siblings/parents are not communicating.
JMO

 

[ShyViolet]

I have seen this speculation and I wonder too---but why would they still be in the same clothing and shoes when they were disposed of, if they were kept alive for a long time.

Just jumping off your post, katydid, but if those poor girls were kept alive until recently, and LE has had a suspect(s) all along, I would call that a fail of astronomical proportions on the part of LE. I am going to hope that is not the case. moo

 

[Elley Mae]

Wouldn't these areas be searched with dogs with those current conditions?

I have no idea, but I have a vision of a police man in uniform doing a drive thru of the park and not getting out and walking out to the area where the girls were found, unless he had on boots. That's just me. Nothing against LE. :moo:

 

[dotr]

http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=25820
U.S. Marshal: Ill. Sex Predator On The Run In Missouri
Herman Carroll -- a vile child sex offender -- has been running since 2000, after he was accused of molesting yet another young girl. For nearly a decade, he managed to avoid detection, and cops suspected he might have even died. But recent tips from AMW viewers have placed him on the run throughout western Missouri. Now, the U.S. Marshals need you to rout him out once again.


Sex: Male Race: White Current Age: 60 Height: 5'7'' Weight: 240 lbs. Hair (Color, Description, Facial Hair): Brown
Carroll's hair is typically disheveled.
He is currently thought to be clean-shaven.
In the past, he typically wore a mustache.
Eyes: Hazel
Other Phys. Characteristics: Carroll has a birthmark/discoloration on his abdomen.
Scars and Tattoos: Carroll has a scar on his right finger.
He has a scar on his left wrist.
On his left shoulder, Carroll has a tattoo of a red heart with the name "JOANNE" in the center.
On his right shoulder, he has a "family tree" with the initials of family members on two branches.
One branch has the initial "K" on the main branch, with three offshoot branches. These three offshoot branches contain the letters "E", "K", and either "C" or "H".
The second primary branch contains the letter "J" with three offshoot branches, containing the letters "N", "E", and "B".
Traits and Habits: Carroll likes to stay in campgrounds.
He is a skilled trim finisher, specializing in new construction.
He has been married five times.
He has six children.
He has been convicted twice for sexually abusing children (1983 and 1993).
He is a registered sex offender.
Last Seen: Sullivan , IL

Other Possible Locations: Springfield , MO
Carroll is believed to be hiding out in homeless camps in the wilderness of Springfield, Mo.
Last Known Locations: Sullivan , IL
Prior Convictions: Sexual Abuse

 

[otto]

Hopefully you are correct.

One thing I have learned: most police officials are masters of the art of projecting the illusion that they are in control and they know way more than they really do. Sadly, most of the time it's nonsense. When crimes are solved it's usually because there is (literally or figuratively) a trail of bloody footprints leading from the crime scene straight to where the perpetrator is vigorously scrubbing the gore from his hands. And all too often that's not enough for a conviction. Just ask OJ or Casey Anthony about that.

From the police point of view it's best is when the perp confesses. Lacking that they need something that ties the suspect (and no one else) to the crime. Even when the police have a really good idea who did it, they need something concrete that they can take in front of a jury.

My HOPE is that the police have had this for some time and were waiting on bodies before moving forward. But I don't put a lot of stock in my hopes.

Anyway, like I said, I am not buying the drug connection. I think this was a more or less random abduction. I am very much hoping that the police nail someone quickly, otherwise I very much fear that this person or persons will kill again.

In this particular case, I would have to agree. I also think that it is a random abduction and there is no connection to meth. I agree that the police did not grasp the situation fast enough to act quickly and treat the bike location as a crime scene, and that they have always been "behind the 8 ball". Locating the children was as random as locating the bikes ... that is, no evidence led to either discovery.

 

[tlcya]

wow, FB is one pit of nasty. Every time I almost forget, I am reminded.

I was bummed last night when I couldn't read the comments on the CVM FB page. Now I am bummed that this morning I could.

Why does the internet bring out the worst in us? The only useful rumor gleaned IMO is that CMF is on LE radar and has been (or is being?) looked at.

That is enough to satisfy my. I am content to let LE do its job. I will not be participating in any further discussion about that person.

 

[Jacie Estes]

Just a note this evening: Lyric's mother surfaced today and issued a statement to news media basically saying 'I dont want to hear the gruesome details; our girls are with God and that is all that matters'.

Evidently, public speculation has reached a high pitch with many people trying to speculate on details ...

I wont speculate beyond the mother's statement issued today.

Treatment/programs don't allow for high visibility or the ability to chat with others.

I understand why she and Heather don't want to know details; no one would want facts like rape, molestation or any other things like that in their known thoughts. This is the only way they have left to protect their little girls memorys.

 

[Boodles]

The tweets & I believe the news stated the LE were checking for meth related offenders and RSO's right off the bat. Standard procedure since finding the girls in a whole different county. It opened up a wider range to maybe connect it all for an arrest.

CVM (Cedar Valley Mugshots), is putting all the child molesters on their site. Whether it's quarterly reviews or a coincidence that they all molested children 0-13 is curious. CF sure is winning though.

jmo

I looked at the Fitz page and the comments on FB. I find it appalling how everyone is vilifying this person online. Maybe I missed something, but is there any actual indication that he was involved?

Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But accusing him of these crimes based on total speculation is ignorant and could be damaging an individual who, PERHAPS, is trying to rehabilitate.

So, did I miss some solid evidence????

 

[carbuff]

The thing that made me wonder whether the bikes were staged is that it seems like preteens don't normally stand their bikes up against anything. They just drop them down wherever they stop and leave them lying there -- if they move them off the sidewalk it's a big plus. I'm not saying it never happens, but it struck me as...a little off.

The RSO dude has a lot of coincidences going against him, but no evidence. People have said, "well, they checked all the RSOs at the beginning and didn't find anything," but all that means is they didn't find enough evidence to arrest somebody then. It doesn't mean they're innocent. Do I think an RSO did it? It's possible, but something about it doesn't seem to fit. An unregistered sex offender who has raped in the past who escalated to murder seems more likely.

Likewise with revenge related to the drug dealing. I can't see anything that would rule it out, but it doesn't seem to fit. A couple of cranked-up kids on a thrill kill, possibly.

Family, no. Extended family, you never know. Somebody from the extended family might also fit into one of the other categories.

But there's not a lot of evidence to rule out any of those possibilities. I just wish I could stop thinking *advertiser censored*...

 

[carbuff]

I have seen this speculation and I wonder too---but why would they still be in the same clothing and shoes when they were disposed of, if they were kept alive for a long time.

Nothing says they were wearing the clothing -- it could have been left nearby.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

While the FB site is an interesting read, I feel like I've lost five years of my education by reading it.

 

[carbuff]

While the FB site is an interesting read, I feel like I've lost five years of my education by reading it.

Yeah, it's really bad, isn't it? Yuck. And most of them are so...vile. Clearly LE needs to look at this guy, but it's coincidence and suspicion -- he might well be innocent. But they've got a lynch mob going.

 

[Marilynilpa]

And you are correct Mjskit, it could have been someone they crossed paths with from the dealing of the drugs as well.
(forgot to add that scenario)
In that photo of Dan against the tree, I sense a feeling of dread, maybe guilt?
Also could be why the siblings/parents are not communicating.
JMO

I sensed that as well, not guilt as in he did anything to harm the girls, but maybe guilt that his lifestyle might have put Lyric on someone's radar.

 

[GrainneDhu]

http://www.southwestiowanews.com/co...cle_b2bb2f02-40a0-11e2-b799-0019bb2963f4.html

The sheriff's office had asked neighboring counties, including Bremer County, to search their parks and wildlife areas for the girls after they vanished last summer, Thompson said. He said that as far as he knows, Bremer County officers did search the popular hunting and fishing spot but that the bodies would have been hard for anyone to spot.

"Even the hunters, if they had gone five feet in either direction, would not have found those bodies," he said.

bbm

Wouldn't these areas be searched with dogs with those current conditions?

Not necessarily.

I checked the Bremer County Sheriff's Department website and could not find any mention of the department having a dog. That's not unusual in Iowa counties with smaller populations (which correlates with less tax money).

If they don't have a dog, then they rely on dogs belonging to nearby counties and on one of the state wide SAR groups when a dog is clearly called for.

At the time they did the initial check of 7 Bridges last summer, it was just a routine check and the sheriff's department probably did not feel a dog was called for.

Iowa is a largely rural, agricultural state and not every county has all the tools known to LE because they have to prioritise due to limited funds.

 

[Foxfire]

12: 12 pm est on 12/12/12..

 

[Foxfire]

Not necessarily.

I checked the Bremer County Sheriff's Department website and could not find any mention of the department having a dog. That's not unusual in Iowa counties with smaller populations (which correlates with less tax money).

If they don't have a dog, then they rely on dogs belonging to nearby counties and on one of the state wide SAR groups when a dog is clearly called for.

At the time they did the initial check of 7 Bridges last summer, it was just a routine check and the sheriff's department probably did not feel a dog was called for.

Iowa is a largely rural, agricultural state and not every county has all the tools known to LE because they have to prioritise due to limited funds.

My mom said can't never do no nothing... There are many professional SARs & K9 handlers, equine and foot searchers, etc. that would have gladly lent a helping hand at no charge upon LE or family request...imo DNR should have access to K9s and search personnel statewide.

 

[chelsea6]

Anyone know how long does for them to get DNA results back? :waitasec:

 

[pdxmama]

Nothing says they were wearing the clothing -- it could have been left nearby.

Just to add to this, people here were speculating about how they were identified visually so quickly if their remains (bodies) had been out in the elements for the past 5 months. One thought was that they could have been identified by their clothing if it was the same clothing they were wearing when they went missing. We have no information if that was the case, just a possibility.

 

[foxbluff]

RE: Seven Bridges Site

After LE finished searching the area/roadsides, but before releasing the scene to the public, would they have brought in search dogs do you think?

 

[GrainneDhu]

My mom said can't never do no nothing... There are many professional SARs & K9 handlers, equine and foot searchers, etc. that would have gladly lent a helping hand at no charge upon LE or family request...imo DNR should have access to K9s and search personnel statewide.

There are trade-offs wherever one chooses to live. Having to make the most judicious use of limited resources like SAR dog handlers is one I'm happy to make in return for not having to live jammed in with millions of other people (who would all pay taxes and increase budgets for local LE).

Had there been any indication that 7 Bridges Park would be important last summer, I'm sure the Bremer County sheriff would have made a call out to the local SAR group (who are all volunteers and mostly have day jobs unrelated to LE).

At the time, it just seemed like a routine check that was probably not related to the crime.

If you look back, the initial search was 25 square miles mostly south and east of Evansdale. They had local K9s and SAR handlers working in that area for over a week (information from personal friend, so treat it as a rumour).

Using a circle centred on Evansdale that is large enough to include 7 Bridges Park, that tells me that LE would have to search a total of 314 square miles. That would have taken 12.5 weeks, going at the initial pace of the investigation.

I doubt there are many SAR handlers in Iowa who can afford to take 12 weeks off their day jobs. There may be but I don't know any of them. The ones I know have all the ordinary expenses of every day life to pay, including mortgage, utilities, food, etc. If you eliminate the SAR dog handlers, that leaves the K9 handlers, who were borrowed from various counties. Again, problems with time off from their regular job plus problems with housing, feeding, etc, and being away from home that much longer.

In these crimes, LE is often forced to rely on the statistics for guidance in the investigation. The statistics say that abduction victims are usually dead within 3 hours and are usually found within 5 miles of their last known position. In this case, LE did an intensive search of that area.

Life is always about trade-offs. There's an ideal response and there is the practical response and the two are often different.

It is as it is.