IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #25

[PlainJaneDoe]

We here on WS have spent many, many hours trying to put together the missing piece(s) to the puzzle of what happened to these two innocent girls so that this killer(s) can be arrested and convicted for what he/she/they have done. Last night I couldn't go to sleep because I was trying to rack my brain on just what happened here (once again). A few thoughts/ideas came to mind that I thought I'd share as maybe someone may pick up on something in it and from there then maybe something else will come off of it. I don't know, but I am more than willing to give it a try. These are just my own theories/ideas on what may have happened, only my opinion. My intentions are not to place blame on anyone and not to make accusations or hurt anyone's feelings and I hope no one takes it that way. If so, I do apologize as that is the last thing I want to do.
I do feel that Lyric and/or Elizabeth knew the perp(s) prior to the day they went missing (probably more so Lyric) as I feel that the person or persons that Lyric and TB's daughter were at the park with (when they were late getting home) shortly before the girls went missing, AND the 20-year-old male who had some connection with TB's other daughter but can't dwell on this as I can't find the link as to whether it was confirmed by LE or MSM, AND the fact that Wylma mentioned in one of her interviews that shortly before this, Lyric was upset with her dad and was wanting to leave. I'm quite sure all of this has been checked out by LE; however, my fear is that maybe purposely something has been withheld by those questioned as to who was at the park, why they were at the park, why really Lyric was so upset, etc.
Also, I think Lyric was quite mature for her age in terms of development, probable attraction to boys and may have even seeked out attention somewhat from males as it doesn't sound as if she had a “father figure” in her life much as it seems as if Wylma has had custody of her and cared for her for quite some time. I feel so sorry for Wylma, my heart goes out to her...God only knows what she has been thru, not only since the girls went missing but prior. She has not only lost Lyric but also another granddaughter at same time and has all the family issues/disagreements/turmoil etc to deal with besides.

I think that shortly after Elizabeth and Lyric were seen by Wylma close to house and seen on surveillance video, that they were approached by perp(s) (who knows where, and maybe perp(s) had it planned or maybe it was spur of the moment). But either way, I wonder if the perp(s) didn't say something like, hey, why don't you girls meet me/us at Meyers Lake and we will go for a boat ride, go for a ride to park, ice cream, or whatever it may have been. At this time, it doesn't occur to girls to ask for directions, as the meeting was probably rushed for time as to not attract any attention. The perp(s) may have told the girls that he/she/they would watch for them once they got close to Meyers Lake and tell them where to go from there and in turn, the perp(s) led them to Maiden's Lane to the wooded/secluded area, where the girls either forcibly or willingly then got in a vehicle and taken to 7 Bridges Park. Once there, the perp(s) may have had intentions of sexually assaulting them (which is even difficult to type as it's so sad), and perp(s) then met resistance and uncooperativeness from the girls, which is more than understandable, which in turn then angered the perp(s) so he/she/they then murdered them and left them lay. This may or may not have been the perp(s) intentions, (to murder them), which is so hard to even type as I can't imagine what type of sick, twisted individual it must take to carry out something like this. However, I do have a hard time believing that the perp(s) took these two girls to sexually assault them only and to then turn them loose, as I would think they would be afraid of being identified by one or both of the girls which could more than likely then lead to their arrest.
Again, these are only my ideas and opinions, in hopes that somehow it could prove to be helpful.
All of us here on WS have spent many, many hours racking our brains trying to figure out what happened to these two girls and why and who, etc. It has been quite frustrating, I think we sometimes say things we don't mean to, and/or it may be misinterpreted by others the wrong way, or maybe even said something about someone or something that was uncalled for. We all deal with grief, stress and frustration differently and we are all entitled to that and we are all entitled to our own opinions as well. It's a great group to be a part of. God Bless You All!

Hi, I don't remember "talking" to you before, so...welcome and I'm glad you like it here. :seeya: One question I did have about your post was, do we know in what condition the remains were found? ...eg., that would suggest that the girls died in that place on or about the day they disappeared? (Sorry if that sounds cold or rude. It is certainly not intended to be.)

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

Do you have any MSM links to support that though? Web sleuths is the only place I have ever heard this mentioned and I'm local to the case. I searched and know several people well who are very closely involved with support and fundraising efforts and have never heard it mentioned outside of here.

As far as WS's is concerned, it is considered a rumor because it came from FB and cannot be confirmed through MSM. I have looked for a reference in MSM to this, but have not found one. So, unless something changes, a rumor it shall remain

 

[Mjskit]

Creepy thought just same to me. In the movie Friday the 13th what was the name of the lake? Wasn't Michael Myers the killer? Heebie Jeebies here.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

Creepy thought just same to me. In the movie Friday the 13th what was he name of the lake? Wasn't Michael Myers the killer? Heebie Jeebies here.

Lol. Michael Myers was Halloween. Jason Voorhies was Friday the 13th.

 

[Just Pat 22]

I agree and assume you used my post as a jumping off point for your thoughts on the matter and not because you think the intent of the quoted post was me telling anyone else how to grieve. The quoted post was my attempt to explain to another poster my own personal decision to avoid discussing the service out of respect for Lyric's parents, who I felt somewhat protective of. It was in response to my hurt feelings about the suggestion that WS ws giving Lyric short shrift in the grief and attention department.

Emotions were runnin high yesterday, my own included.

That can of worms is closed now. Rightly so.

I agree but the post was for Foxbluff? spelled right? . Ir agree with your comment to Foxbluff you were very gentle in your words to him /her . RIP LIZZIE & LYRIC

 

[Mjskit]

Lol. Michael Myers was Halloween. Jason Voorhies was Friday the 13th.

lol. You can tell I don't watch scary movies. What was the name of the camp in the movie and was there a lake? If so what was the name of the lake?

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

lol. You can tell I don't watch scary movies. What was the name of the camp in the movie and was there a lake? If so what was the name of the lake?

It was Camp Crystal Lake in Friday the 13th. I used to watch scary movies, but I don't have the stomach for them anymore. Lol

 

[NWLady]

Hi, I don't remember "talking" to you before, so...welcome and I'm glad you like it here. :seeya: One question I did have about your post was, do we know in what condition the remains were found? ...eg., that would suggest that the girls died in that place on or about the day they disappeared? (Sorry if that sounds cold or rude. It is certainly not intended to be.)

I'm a little confused as to why you are asking me this, but to answer your question (to the best of my knowledge anyways) is I do NOT know what condition the remains were found, nor do I know that they died there, I do not believe that has been confirmed by anyone. However, we all know that that's where they were found, as confirmed by LE.

Again, my post about what happened was ONLY my thoughts/ideas/theories/opinions about what could have POSSIBLY taken place.

I hope this answers your question.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

I'm a little confused as to why you are asking me this, but to answer your question (to the best of my knowledge anyways) is I do NOT know what condition the remains were found, nor do I know that they died there, I do not believe that has been confirmed by anyone. However, we all know that that's where they were found, as confirmed by LE.

Again, my post about what happened was ONLY my thoughts/ideas/theories/opinions about what could have POSSIBLY taken place.

I hope this answers your question.

You are correct. We really don't have confirmation of anything but that they were found. No confirmation that the murders actually occurred at 7 Bridges. All we have is HLN's Jon Lieberman saying that his police sources consider 7 Bridges the dumping place. And I don't know how much credence we give that.

I liked your theory and find it very plausible...and it is similar to my own

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

I'm a little confused as to why you are asking me this, but to answer your question (to the best of my knowledge anyways) is I do NOT know what condition the remains were found, nor do I know that they died there, I do not believe that has been confirmed by anyone. However, we all know that that's where they were found, as confirmed by LE.

Again, my post about what happened was ONLY my thoughts/ideas/theories/opinions about what could have POSSIBLY taken place.

I hope this answers your question.

Thanks, I didn't mean to be rude. :blushing: The welcome was for you; the question was to ya'll (or yous lol).

 

[chelsea6]

Creepy thought just same to me. In the movie Friday the 13th what was the name of the lake? Wasn't Michael Myers the killer? Heebie Jeebies here.

:escape: :couch: o.k, I've just double checked all my door locks, checked outside cameras, and given my German Shepherd a great big HUG!! From now on she will be going with me every time I go shopping at Fareway in Evansdale. Yikes!

Lol. Michael Myers was Halloween. Jason Voorhies was Friday the 13th.

Ewww.. they're both creepy!! hoh:

 

[GrainneDhu]

I wish they would have found the girls bodies earlier...then I think this would really help! But, with so much time passed I don't think anyone would remember that now...it's been too long.

I also wonder about who may know something and aren't telling LE. I think about a mother who is wondering about her son's involvement. Would every mother have the integrity Austin Sigg's mom did to turn it in? Sadly...I don't believe so.

Or a sibling who was home with their brother who were gone for a few hours that day and the parents don't know.

There are so many scenarios but obviously nothing that is jumping out at someone as suspicious. Or, they DO know and simply aren't going to tell LE because the killer is a loved family member.:furious:

I think denial plays a huge role for some relatives. They have suspicions and then they feel ashamed for having those suspicions because of course So-and-so would never do anything like that.

Another issue is normalisation. People who live with someone who is obviously abnormal (such as Austin Sigg) lose their sense of perspective on what normal really is. So when that person does something suspicious, it just seems like more 'normal' to their family.

For example, when I worked with victims of domestic violence, I would ask parents if they thought their children were safe with the perpetrator. Almost invariably they would say yes, he's a great father, he'd never hurt his kids. It wasn't until those victims had learned that simply witnessing abuse is abusive to children that they were able to say "you know, if I weren't there and the kids started acting up, I think he would resort to violence with them."

I don't know what is going on. I do think there is a good chance that whoever has that little piece of information does not realise what it is that they know in relationship to this case.

 

[GrainneDhu]

If the children needed directions to the lake, then it can't be true that Elizabeth regularly rode her bike to the lake or to Lake Avenue.

Or Elizabeth only knew one route and was not familiar with any other routes.

 

[GrainneDhu]

GrainneDhu, imo, it is a combination of forensics technology upgrades such as FBI CODIS, and tips from the American public, which is enhanced by the age of communication that effectively solve crimes. Especially when recidivist sexual predators & violent felons are involved.

SBM & BBM

Thank you, you made my point for me.

 

[borndem]

and I am almost of the opposite view at this point. (I thought posters said
they had ridden to the Park before so why are they in need of instruction
for getting there?). Whatever the true facts are, these girls wanted to go
to the Park, a place they had not been to before, and they went ... and
did they then meet someone and go to 7-Bridges! ?

My feeling, at this time at least, is that they were captives by the time they got to 7-Bridges (please excuse my earlier post when I called it "7 Lakes"...). But yes, I think they were in captivity before they left Meyers Lake. And scared to death.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

I think denial plays a huge role for some relatives. They have suspicions and then they feel ashamed for having those suspicions because of course So-and-so would never do anything like that.

Another issue is normalisation. People who live with someone who is obviously abnormal (such as Austin Sigg) lose their sense of perspective on what normal really is. So when that person does something suspicious, it just seems like more 'normal' to their family.

For example, when I worked with victims of domestic violence, I would ask parents if they thought their children were safe with the perpetrator. Almost invariably they would say yes, he's a great father, he'd never hurt his kids. It wasn't until those victims had learned that simply witnessing abuse is abusive to children that they were able to say "you know, if I weren't there and the kids started acting up, I think he would resort to violence with them."

I don't know what is going on. I do think there is a good chance that whoever has that little piece of information does not realise what it is that they know in relationship to this case.

I started my career as a counselor/advocate for victims of DV as well. What you wrote is so true. Almost without fail, the women would claim that their abuser was a wonderful father. I wanted to roll my eyes, but of course I couldn't. Women who were abused by their boyfriend/husband sometimes even ended up back in our shelter a few years later...after they incurred abuse from their sons! Even then, sometimes, it still didn't register to the women that what their children saw when they were younger had a negative impact on the teenager/young adult they had become.

I would not be surprised if the perp has DV in their background.

 

[GrainneDhu]

But none of these modern methods will help identify a perp who is a first time offender with no DNA or fingerprints in the system.

Also, if a perp IS in the system but left behind no fingerprints or DNA at a crime scene, what good is all of this technology?

Modern techniques may prove the guilt or innocence of an individual, but a perp is often identified by LE through "antiquated" methods. JMO

Exactly.

Advances in forensics can take a case from "his neighbour noticed he was out late the night in question and then he sold his car unexpectedly" to "paint matching his vehicle was found at the hit and run accident scene." That crucial first step hasn't changed; what has changed is what that first step can lead to.

Thank you, Marilynilpa.

 

[Squeeze]

Let's assume for a minute that the rumor that the girls stopped at the grocery to ask for directions to Meyer's Lake is true.

Chelsea (or any local) -- if you were working at the grocery, how would you send the girls to Meyer's Lake? It seems to me that any adult local would say, "Oh, just hop on the bike path! It goes straight from here to there!"

The bikes were found on the bike path, so, again, assuming that rumor is true, it makes sense that they WERE told to take the path, and that at some point, they were followed to the spot the bikes were found (or abducted along the way and then their bikes were ridden a bit further down the path by the abductor(s). It just occurred to me today for the first time that the bikes were ADULT bikes (at least Lyric's was). So if they were subdued somehow (tazered/handcuffed in a car/chloroformed/locked in a basement), it wouldn't seem out of place at all for an adult male to be riding an adult bike down the path to the spot where the bikes rested.)

So my question is -- WHAT IS BETWEEN THE GROCERY AND THE SPOT THE BIKES WERE FOUND, ALONG THE BIKE PATH?! (Sorry, don't mean to yell. I'm just shocked I didn't think about this before!) Are there any businesses, RSOs, residences of known characters?

We've explored possible city street routes SO many times. But I don't recall reading any local's analysis of what is immediately off the northern part of the bike path.

Catching up, way behind!! A few days from here makes a big difference. Anyway, I mentioned this months ago, that the bike trail goes by the skate park. My family and I ride often on this trail from our home north to 4 queens and then back home. There are lots of places along the trail where someone could be confronted and maybe not seen by others. Not sure of rso's.

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

Is there a handy link to a fb page with the pics of Lyric's service?

 

[katydid23]

We here on WS have spent many, many hours trying to put together the missing piece(s) to the puzzle of what happened to these two innocent girls so that this killer(s) can be arrested and convicted for what he/she/they have done. Last night I couldn't go to sleep because I was trying to rack my brain on just what happened here (once again). A few thoughts/ideas came to mind that I thought I'd share as maybe someone may pick up on something in it and from there then maybe something else will come off of it. I don't know, but I am more than willing to give it a try. These are just my own theories/ideas on what may have happened, only my opinion. My intentions are not to place blame on anyone and not to make accusations or hurt anyone's feelings and I hope no one takes it that way. If so, I do apologize as that is the last thing I want to do.
I do feel that Lyric and/or Elizabeth knew the perp(s) prior to the day they went missing (probably more so Lyric) as I feel that the person or persons that Lyric and TB's daughter were at the park with (when they were late getting home) shortly before the girls went missing, AND the 20-year-old male who had some connection with TB's other daughter but can't dwell on this as I can't find the link as to whether it was confirmed by LE or MSM, AND the fact that Wylma mentioned in one of her interviews that shortly before this, Lyric was upset with her dad and was wanting to leave. I'm quite sure all of this has been checked out by LE; however, my fear is that maybe purposely something has been withheld by those questioned as to who was at the park, why they were at the park, why really Lyric was so upset, etc.
Also, I think Lyric was quite mature for her age in terms of development, probable attraction to boys and may have even seeked out attention somewhat from males as it doesn't sound as if she had a “father figure” in her life much as it seems as if Wylma has had custody of her and cared for her for quite some time. I feel so sorry for Wylma, my heart goes out to her...God only knows what she has been thru, not only since the girls went missing but prior. She has not only lost Lyric but also another granddaughter at same time and has all the family issues/disagreements/turmoil etc to deal with besides.

I think that shortly after Elizabeth and Lyric were seen by Wylma close to house and seen on surveillance video, that they were approached by perp(s) (who knows where, and maybe perp(s) had it planned or maybe it was spur of the moment). But either way, I wonder if the perp(s) didn't say something like, hey, why don't you girls meet me/us at Meyers Lake and we will go for a boat ride, go for a ride to park, ice cream, or whatever it may have been. At this time, it doesn't occur to girls to ask for directions, as the meeting was probably rushed for time as to not attract any attention. The perp(s) may have told the girls that he/she/they would watch for them once they got close to Meyers Lake and tell them where to go from there and in turn, the perp(s) led them to Maiden's Lane to the wooded/secluded area, where the girls either forcibly or willingly then got in a vehicle and taken to 7 Bridges Park. Once there, the perp(s) may have had intentions of sexually assaulting them (which is even difficult to type as it's so sad), and perp(s) then met resistance and uncooperativeness from the girls, which is more than understandable, which in turn then angered the perp(s) so he/she/they then murdered them and left them lay. This may or may not have been the perp(s) intentions, (to murder them), which is so hard to even type as I can't imagine what type of sick, twisted individual it must take to carry out something like this. However, I do have a hard time believing that the perp(s) took these two girls to sexually assault them only and to then turn them loose, as I would think they would be afraid of being identified by one or both of the girls which could more than likely then lead to their arrest.
Again, these are only my ideas and opinions, in hopes that somehow it could prove to be helpful.
All of us here on WS have spent many, many hours racking our brains trying to figure out what happened to these two girls and why and who, etc. It has been quite frustrating, I think we sometimes say things we don't mean to, and/or it may be misinterpreted by others the wrong way, or maybe even said something about someone or something that was uncalled for. We all deal with grief, stress and frustration differently and we are all entitled to that and we are all entitled to our own opinions as well. It's a great group to be a part of. God Bless You All!

Very good and well thought out post. I agree with your possible scenario. I also wonder whether some employee from the Big n Tall Shop or the neighboring shops might have been involved. We know the girls rode their bikes in that lot routinely. Many chances to meet up with an employee, sitting out for a ciggie break, or sitting in their car for lunch break. Once a kid meets a stranger a couple of times, they falsely believe they are a friend, unfortunately.