IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #29

[threecrazykids]

Have a look at the interior photos and decide for yourself ... does it look like the door at the back would be used as often as the door at the front? It does to me.

Even if they came out the back door, wouldn't they have had to have come out at the exact moment we saw the girls on the video? That was apparently the only time the girls were caught on video and it was a split second and they were gone. Otherwise they wouldn't have seen them, correct?

I'm clearly missing something.

I'm not arguing just to argue. I just can't understand why LE wouldn't use the damn timestamp (corrected or not). If minutes don't matter, then why is 12:23 so "exact"?

Makes no sense.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Why are two bikes unattended unusual? Unless your super glued to the seat, people do get off their bikes.

He had to swerve. That is why he remembered them. I would too.

He looked around for the owners, but they weren't there.

I would remember that also, and make a mental note perhaps to stop and ask the next two people I saw if they were the owners, and if so, perhaps move the bikes off the path for the next person, or warn them they may be stolen.

If Mr G bikes around that lake every day and has never seen two apparently discarded bicycles before, then it is "unusual" by definition.

Having to actually swerve when you're in your exercise "zone" is also unusual.

He only had to retain the information for 4 hours. Maybe he was still slightly annoyed by the inconsideration shown by the cyclists, maybe he went on to wonder if perhaps the bikes had been stolen and dumped and if he should tell LE because stealing and dumping bikes is illegal.

He seems a very civic minded individual, I can easily imagine him giving the swerve and the dumped bikes more contemplation than a goldfish would. A good part of the rest of his ride that day would possibly be somewhat preoccupied with keeping an eye out for the bike owners so he could do his duty as a good citizen.

:cow:

 

[cindersoot]

 

[SapphireSteel]

I know that (whatever he said did not matter to police and they have ignored his media remarks throughout this case) because I've followed the case since July 13 and I have heard Abben say on video that he knows nothing about the cyclist ... after the cyclist made himself known to media. I also know that (whatever he said did not matter to police and they have ignored his media remarks throughout this case) because police have released the timeline and identified the first sighting of the bikes at the gate as 2:00 ... by a jogger. This conclusively excludes a cyclist sighting at 12:20. The cyclist remarks are further excluded by the police timeline.

I don't know if the man is poor (don't recall reading that), but whatever he said about 12:20, prior to his phone call to his daughter at a different location at 12:28, is irrelevant to the case.

Why would a cyclist and his daughter need to be defended? Is it important for the cyclist to involve himself in this case and, if so, why?

The cyclist should have seen the girls at Elmer and Gilbert, near Arbutus, or on the Evansdale Nature Trail ... but he didn't. That's the curious thing.

"poor man" is an expression of sympathy.

Like, the "poor little thing".

The official police timeline has "last seen 12.15", which also excludes the other sightings mentioned (including joggers and cyclists) so why is the sighting at 12.23 considered valid?

I think I'll wait until the trial to decide whether or not LE have disregarded TG's information.

Until then it's just guesses and opinion.

 

[iamnotagolem]

So the girls were seen on video at 12:15 (really 12:11 or 12:19) then seen by an independent source at 12:23. So 8 minutes later they were still on Brovan. These times are confirmed by LE.

Yet TG saw the bikes at the lake at 12:20.

This would mean the girls rode their bikes from Brovan at 12:15 got to the lake in 5 minutes, hid, got back on their bikes rode back to Brovan in 3 minutes, then disappeared and their bikes ended up back down at the lake.

 

[otto]

Even if they came out the back door, wouldn't they have had to have come out at the exact moment we saw the girls on the video? That was apparently the only time the girls were caught on video and it was a split second and they were gone. Otherwise they wouldn't have seen them, correct?

I'm clearly missing something.

I'm not arguing just to argue. I just can't understand why LE wouldn't use the damn timestamp (corrected or not). If minutes don't matter, then why is 12:23 so "exact"?

Makes no sense.

Apparently not. Apparently the children were on Brovan at 12:15. There is also information that they were on Brovan at 12:23. I don't understand why anyone would want to say that 12:15 and 12:23 are the same time, that police got all confused and don't know what they're talking about when they release a timeline of missing children, or that it's inconceivable that someone would be able to look at a receipt and know the time that they saw two girls on bikes in the alley. There are other shops in the area ... including Lonnies Bar.

Is it easier to believe that when Pahl says the time stamp of 12:11 should be 12:19, police are deliberately being vague about the time, or does it make more sense that police decided to split the difference between the two times provided by Mr Pahl?

What difference does it really make. We know that the police statements provide us with a timeline. The children were still on Brovan at 12:23. They were on Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus at 12:30-1:00. What difference does it make whether the video time is 12:11, 12:15, or 12:19?

 

[cindersoot]

So the girls were seen on video at 12:15 (really 12:11 or 12:19) then seen by an independent source at 12:23. So 8 minutes later they were still on Brovan. These times are confirmed by LE.

Yet TG saw the bikes at the lake at 12:20.

This would mean the girls rode their bikes from Brovan at 12:15 got to the lake in 5 minutes, hid, got back on their bikes rode back to Brovan in 3 minutes, then disappeared and their bikes ended up back down at the lake.

Crazy isn't it.

 

[SapphireSteel]

So the girls were seen on video at 12:15 (really 12:11 or 12:19) then seen by an independent source at 12:23. So 8 minutes later they were still on Brovan. These times are confirmed by LE.

Yet TG saw the bikes at the lake at 12:20.

This would mean the girls rode their bikes from Brovan at 12:15 got to the lake in 5 minutes, hid, got back on their bikes rode back to Brovan in 3 minutes, then disappeared and their bikes ended up back down at the lake.

The time TG saw the bikes was always "around 12.20".

That could easily mean 12.26, ie, another six minutes for what happened to have happened.

All we need is the bikes to get from Brovan to the Lake. 12.11 - 12.26 is 25 minutes, plenty of time.

12.15 - 12.26 is 11 minutes, also plenty of time.

12.15 - 12.23 is 8 minutes...which is exactly the time it would take two little girls to bike that distance.

12.15 - 12.20 is 5 minutes - exactly the amount of time it would take someone in a car to pick the girls up, throw their bikes in the boot, and have two teenage accomplices place them at the park and stroll away.

Or perhaps to already be "fishing" at the lake waiting for the mastermind to drive up with his prey, palm the bikes off for the staging, and keep going.

:cow:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Not only that, but he saw two people fishing at the lake. I'd think if I saw two unattended bikes and two people fishing, I'd deduct that the fishermen rode the bikes.

The men he saw were completely over the other side of the lake.

Maybe they had tackle boxes and deck chairs and an SUV parked nearby and were clearly not the cyclists.

One bike was small too, wasn't it? A child's bike?

Maybe it was glaringly obvious the two men did not use a little girls bike and one other to lug all their boy toys down for a day of fishing heaven.

Personally, I believe the two men were the accomplices. Always have.

Bear in mind these guys have probably been located and spoken to, and we don't have one clue what they said because they didn't make the fatal mistake of speaking to the media.

I find it very odd that LE have not referenced any witnesses whatsoever that day, officially. Or is it because Evansdale is a very small town and a lot of people are frightened half to death because they know/suspect what happened, know the perp/s, and are reliant on them for their drug supply and cannot risk that?

LE have pretty well said as much.

The pathetic 8 person turn out at the public forum doesn't sit right with me either. This is allegedly a community with a multiple child murderer running around, and no one even gets off their butts to go ask LE where they're at?

Beyond strange.

:cow:

 

[iamnotagolem]

The men he saw were completely over the other side of the lake.

Maybe they had tackle boxes and deck chairs and an SUV parked nearby and were clearly not the cyclists.

One bike was small too, wasn't it? A child's bike?

Maybe it was glaringly obvious the two men did not use a little girls bike and one other to lug all their boy toys down for a day of fishing heaven.

I must have missed that they had chairs and an SUV.

 

[otto]

The men he saw were completely over the other side of the lake.

Maybe they had tackle boxes and deck chairs and an SUV parked nearby and were clearly not the cyclists.

One bike was small too, wasn't it? A child's bike?

Maybe it was glaringly obvious the two men did not use a little girls bike and one other to lug all their boy toys down for a day of fishing heaven.

I don't recall reading about an SUV, tackle box and deck chairs. Do you have the link ... or is this along the lines of: maybe they were wearing floppy hats and red running shoes?

 

[cindersoot]

The men he saw were completely over the other side of the lake.

Maybe they had tackle boxes and deck chairs and an SUV parked nearby and were clearly not the cyclists.

One bike was small too, wasn't it? A child's bike?

Maybe it was glaringly obvious the two men did not use a little girls bike and one other to lug all their boy toys down for a day of fishing heaven.

I'm sorry SS, and I'm really not trying to be snarky, but tackle boxes, deck chairs, suv's? It seems like you paint a totally different picture then what the facts are. Again, only peace here.

 

[iamnotagolem]

The description of the bikes wasn't released so TG describing the bikes would have told the police whether or not he really saw the girls bikes.

If TG saw the girls bikes, it certainly wasn't at the lake at 12:20 since they were on Brovan at 12:15 and 12:23.

It seems the police have continued to release specific times stating the girls were seen on Brovan to contradict TGs claim that he saw the bikes at the lake at 12:20. I don't know if police are doing it to discredit him or they simply are trying to inform the public that the girls were still further north in hopes that they would get more tips.

 

[Reverie]

Police have said that the children were seen at 12:15 on Brovan. There is information that they were on Brovan at 12:23, meaning (most likely) a tip. 12:15 most likely refers to the video, and it probably makes no difference to anyone whether it was 12:11, 12:15, or 12:19.

If 12:23 is the video, what is 12:15?

I don't have time to post the links again ... but they are easily found on google. It is a fact that police have provided two times: 12:15 and 12:23, not one.

Is the 12:15 sighting from WC?

 

[iamnotagolem]

The time TG saw the bikes was always "around 12.20".

That could easily mean 12.26, ie, another six minutes for what happened to have happened.

All we need is the bikes to get from Brovan to the Lake. 12.11 - 12.26 is 25 minutes, plenty of time.

12.15 - 12.26 is 11 minutes, also plenty of time.

12.15 - 12.23 is 8 minutes...which is exactly the time it would take two little girls to bike that distance.

12.15 - 12.20 is 5 minutes - exactly the amount of time it would take someone in a car to pick the girls up, throw their bikes in the boot, and have two teenage accomplices place them at the park and stroll away.

Or perhaps to already be "fishing" at the lake waiting for the mastermind to drive up with his prey, palm the bikes off for the staging, and keep going.

:cow:

I'm not sure what the latest could be that TG saw the bikes at the lake could possibly be when his phone call to his daughter was at 12:27. He guessed it took him 7 minutes to get from the lake to when he made the call. Even if it was only 3 minutes to get from the lake to the phone call location, that means the girls made it to the lake at 12:24 yet were seen on Brovan at 12:23.

Let's say TG is super rider and it took him 1 minute to get from the lake to where he made the phone call. That places him at the lake at 12:26, which means it took the girls 3 minutes to get from Brovan to the lake and disappear.

I think the police deliberately excluding TGs sighting is a good enough reason for me to exclude it.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm sorry SS, and I'm really not trying to be snarky, but tackle boxes, deck chairs, suv's? It seems like you paint a totally different picture then what the facts are. Again, only peace here.

Yeah I know what you mean.

I'm just saying - for whatever reason, TG did not equate the two children's bikes with the men he saw over the other side of the lake. Maybe the men he saw were physically too big for the bikes.

We can't know why and I don't find it significant really either.

What I would like to know is, who were these two pole carrying men? And the guy wandering around the car park?

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm not sure what the latest could be that TG saw the bikes at the lake could possibly be when his phone call to his daughter was at 12:27. He guessed it took him 7 minutes to get from the lake to when he made the call. Even if it was only 3 minutes to get from the lake to the phone call location, that means the girls made it to the lake at 12:24 yet were seen on Brovan at 12:23.

Let's say TG is super rider and it took him 1 minute to get from the lake to where he made the phone call. That places him at the lake at 12:26, which means it took the girls 3 minutes to get from Brovan to the lake and disappear.

I think the police deliberately excluding TGs sighting is a good enough reason for me to exclude it.

In that case we have to exclude all of the sightings and only use the official "last seen".

Which is 12.15 I believe?

Someone please provide a link to this if I'm right, I'm trying to find it on BHSCO website and it seems to have vanished? TIA

 

[otto]

The description of the bikes wasn't released so TG describing the bikes would have told the police whether or not he really saw the girls bikes.

If TG saw the girls bikes, it certainly wasn't at the lake at 12:20 since they were on Brovan at 12:15 and 12:23.

It seems the police have continued to release specific times stating the girls were seen on Brovan to contradict TGs claim that he saw the bikes at the lake at 12:20. I don't know if police are doing it to discredit him or they simply are trying to inform the public that the girls were still further north in hopes that they would get more tips.

The cyclist stated on this forum that he was unable to describe the bikes.

I'm sure that the police timeline has absolutely nothing to do with the cyclist.

 

[otto]

Is the 12:15 sighting from WC?

What is WC?

 

[otto]

I'll tell you what's wrong with that picture. It's not accurate.

As the group searched, a bicyclist stopped the officers to say he saw the two kids bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.
Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo said he rides the trail often.
“I saw the bikes laying on the path and had to swerve to miss them,” Gamerdinger said. He then went to the Evansdale Police Department to report the sighting.

The above quote was taken when the journalists stopped TG at the lake. They stopped him because they saw him talking to LE and wanted to know what he'd said.

He wasn't posing, showing off for media, staging a presser. He was trying to take a bike ride and he'd seen something that had concerned him so when they stopped him to ask him about it, he told them.

It probably wasn't a big deal at the time.

Who on earth invents two mystery kids bikes anyway? If he was a fame hound he would have seen/heard something far more glamorous than that.

He went straight to LE, actually to make a statement, immediately when he realised the significance of what he'd seen which was "two children's bikes".

Then he then stopped and spoke to LE a second time he went cycling and saw them searching, which is the "posed" photo. It wasn't posed, journalists were trailling around after LE photographing every thing they did, including speaking to TG again.

There is nothing new about people injecting themselves into police investigations. Perhaps there's a psychological disorder that has been named for this odd behavior, but I have no idea what it is.

More likely ... the cyclist has his days mixed up.