IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #29

[Reverie]

Police have said that the children were seen at 12:15 on Brovan. There is information that they were on Brovan at 12:23, meaning (most likely) a tip. 12:15 most likely refers to the video, and it probably makes no difference to anyone whether it was 12:11, 12:15, or 12:19.

If 12:23 is the video, what is 12:15?

I don't have time to post the links again ... but they are easily found on google. It is a fact that police have provided two times: 12:15 and 12:23, not one.

I still think the 12:15 sighting is from GMA Cook. The 12:23 from the CCTV.

 

[Reverie]

What is WC?

The girls' maternal grandma.

 

[iamnotagolem]

The cyclist stated on this forum that he was unable to describe the bikes.

I'm sure that the police timeline has absolutely nothing to do with the cyclist.

I'm not directing this at you, but seeing two bikes on the path were out of the ordinary enough to remember seeing two guys fishing on the other side of the lake, one being older than the other, a guy by a car in the parking lot, yet not what color the bikes were? :waitasec:

 

[otto]

In that case we have to exclude all of the sightings and only use the official "last seen".

Which is 12.15 I believe?

Someone please provide a link to this if I'm right, I'm trying to find it on BHSCO website and it seems to have vanished? TIA

What is the advantage of excluding all police statements regarding the timeline except for 12:15?

 

[SapphireSteel]

What is the advantage of excluding all police statements regarding the timeline except for 12:15?

Probably the same advantage as disregarding and dismissing the words of an upstanding citizen.

:waitasec:

 

[Reverie]

Police have said that the children were seen at 12:15 on Brovan. There is information that they were on Brovan at 12:23, meaning (most likely) a tip. 12:15 most likely refers to the video, and it probably makes no difference to anyone whether it was 12:11, 12:15, or 12:19.

If 12:23 is the video, what is 12:15?

<respectfully snipped>

12:15 sighting is Wylma C's

 

[iamnotagolem]

Probably the same advantage as completely disregarding and dismissing the words of an upstanding citizen.

:waitasec:

The only reason TGs statements are being questioned and disregarded is because they don't fit the timeline LE has provided, LE has disregarded TG completely.

I think TG getting confused on his days is possible. If he rode that route every day and frequently stopped to call his daughter, then maybe he saw bikes a different day. Heck if the girls really rode to the bike regularly, maybe he did see the girl's bikes the day before.

I just don't think that you have to assume TGs guilt to accept that his sighting might not be accurate.

 

[24Roses]

there was a guy got out of his vehicle and started walking at the depot then i seen, when i returned he left as i did. there was two people fishing on north west corner of the lake . a vehicle pulled in as i was leaving the parking lot of the lake [/B]

There was "a guy". What kind of guy?

White? Black? Tall? Short? Old? Young? What was he wearing? What was he driving? Did you see which way he was walking? Did he have a pet with him? Did he have any type of cross body or hip bag or anything he could have carried a weapon in?

He arrived and left the depot at the exact same time? What time did you arrive and leave the depot? This person could possibly provide pertinent info.

2 people fishing on the NW corner of the lake? Same questions as above, just eliminate the part about the vehicle.

A vehicle pulled in as he was leaving? What kind of vehicle?

Even if the color/type of vehicle was seen leaving, maybe it was caught on CCTV enough to get the license plate and could be asked if they saw the girls since they were at the park BEFORE Mr. G left.

If only he was able to provide more detail, maybe there would be other people who could be questioned to THEIR whereabouts during that time. lease:

BBM-I know the depot has been mentioned before. Where is it located in relation to Meyer's Lake? I didn't think it was that close. Everything else is very good questions IMO.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The only reason TGs statements are being questioned and disregarded is because they don't fit the timeline LE has provided, LE has disregarded TG completely.

I think TG getting confused on his days is possible. If he rode that route every day and frequently stopped to call his daughter, then maybe he saw bikes a different day. Heck if the girls really rode to the bike regularly, maybe he did see the girl's bikes the day before.

I just don't think that you have to assume TGs guilt to accept that his sighting might not be accurate.

The last official sighting per LE is 12.15 as far as I know. That's what's been in MSM and is on the missing poster.

TG did not misplace his days, he has his cell phone records.

 

[tlcya]

I'll tell you what's wrong with that picture. It's not accurate.

As the group searched, a bicyclist stopped the officers to say he saw the two kids bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.
Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo said he rides the trail often.
&#8220;I saw the bikes laying on the path and had to swerve to miss them,&#8221; Gamerdinger said. He then went to the Evansdale Police Department to report the sighting.

The above quote was taken when the journalists stopped TG at the lake. They stopped him because they saw him talking to LE and wanted to know what he'd said.

He wasn't posing, showing off for media, staging a presser. He was trying to take a bike ride and he'd seen something that had concerned him so when they stopped him to ask him about it, he told them.

It probably wasn't a big deal at the time.

Who on earth invents two mystery kids bikes anyway? If he was a fame hound he would have seen/heard something far more glamorous than that.

He went straight to LE, actually to make a statement, immediately when he realised the significance of what he'd seen which was "two children's bikes".

Then he then stopped and spoke to LE a second time he went cycling and saw them searching, which is the "posed" photo. It wasn't posed, journalists were trailling around after LE photographing every thing they did, including speaking to TG again.

great post

I agree 100%

 

[threecrazykids]

Apparently not. Apparently the children were on Brovan at 12:15. There is also information that they were on Brovan at 12:23. I don't understand why anyone would want to say that 12:15 and 12:23 are the same time, that police got all confused and don't know what they're talking about when they release a timeline of missing children, or that it's inconceivable that someone would be able to look at a receipt and know the time that they saw two girls on bikes in the alley. There are other shops in the area ... including Lonnies Bar.

Is it easier to believe that when Pahl says the time stamp of 12:11 should be 12:19, police are deliberately being vague about the time, or does it make more sense that police decided to split the difference between the two times provided by Mr Pahl?

What difference does it really make. We know that the police statements provide us with a timeline. The children were still on Brovan at 12:23. They were on Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus at 12:30-1:00. What difference does it make whether the video time is 12:11, 12:15, or 12:19?

I'm not saying that 12:15 and 12:23 are the same time. I'm not sure why you keep saying that.

In reference to the above, I'm saying that the last time SEEN was 12:15. Grandma has used this as one of her last seen times. It also HAPPENS to be a split difference in between 12:11 and 12:19.

I was actually the person who originally posted the split time difference between 12:11 and 12:19 equaling 12:15 so I'm not completely discounting that as a possibility, but WHY can't LE just be straight with people? They put a video out there as "possible last sighting", all the while not even confirming it's the girls.

As far as someone tying their receipt to a sighting, that 12:23 time came out in September...quite a long time for someone to look back on a receipt and then remember in that moment they saw the girls.

You're certain LE isn't being vague (and that the 12:23 sighting is to the minute), so why can't they use one of the times given as far as the video goes? It's pointless. It serves no purpose other than to add OR subtract minutes into the timeline. Like you said, why does it matter if they use 12:11, 12:15, or 12:19? Because it establishes a credible, factual timeline that includes proof of the time seen.

If it's so difficult to entertain the idea that LE is intentionally being vague then why include the video at all? LE hasn't confirmed it's the girls, nor have they included EITHER time given by Mr. Pahl.

I also find it VERY hard to believe that the girls who apparently only rode "around the block" would have only been caught on this video ONCE, if they were on Brovan at 11:30 (original time they left given by Grandma which is the road the Collin's live on) and STILL in on the same exact road at 12:23.

:twocents:

 

[iamnotagolem]

The last official sighting per LE is 12.15 as far as I know. That's what's been in MSM and is on the missing poster.

TG did not misplace his days, he has his cell phone records.

So we are then assuming that he only called his daughter once while out on a bike ride? I think if it was normal enough that he called her that day, it's not unplausible that he called her the day before or two days before.

People are mistaken all the time. It's human.

He called his daughter at 12:27 on July 13. That doesn't prove that he saw bikes on the trail that day. He may have seen them the day before or two days.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I don't know if TG is wrong, mistaken, lying, whatever - but I do not include his sighting when putting together a timeline simply because LE has never confirmed his sighting or included it in any timeline. LE has confirmed that a jogger saw the bikes at approx. 2:00 on July 13th, but has never uttered one word regarding TG's sighting. That, to me, is all I need to know about the subject. JMO

 

[BunnyHop]

Any thoughts on why the police are completely disinterested in his comments to the media?

Do you know that for sure? Or is that an assumption/opinion? :waitasec:

 

[threecrazykids]

I'll tell you what's wrong with that picture. It's not accurate.

As the group searched, a bicyclist stopped the officers to say he saw the two kids bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.
Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo said he rides the trail often.
“I saw the bikes laying on the path and had to swerve to miss them,” Gamerdinger said. He then went to the Evansdale Police Department to report the sighting.

The above quote was taken when the journalists stopped TG at the lake. They stopped him because they saw him talking to LE and wanted to know what he'd said.

He wasn't posing, showing off for media, staging a presser. He was trying to take a bike ride and he'd seen something that had concerned him so when they stopped him to ask him about it, he told them.

It probably wasn't a big deal at the time.

Who on earth invents two mystery kids bikes anyway? If he was a fame hound he would have seen/heard something far more glamorous than that.

He went straight to LE, actually to make a statement, immediately when he realised the significance of what he'd seen which was "two children's bikes".

Then he then stopped and spoke to LE a second time he went cycling and saw them searching, which is the "posed" photo. It wasn't posed, journalists were trailling around after LE photographing every thing they did, including speaking to TG again.

This I agree with. Mr. G did indeed go to LE on that Friday...he and his daughter have both stated that. The picture was the following Monday when he stopped again.

 

[BunnyHop]

The place is so old looking and abandoned that it might not have a lot of customers coming and going.

I respectfully disagree. Family owned for 40 years according to the link.
Have you ever been to an auction house? I have. Many, many times.
They are usually old, crusty and dusty. I've been in the antique business and I can tell you that this place doesn't look half bad compared to the many auctions I have seen.

I will also tell you that most auction houses employ part time workers that come and go depending on auction schedules. There's a FACT for you.
They lift, carry, load and move furniture and whatever else is auctioned.

:twocents::moo::twocents:

 

[SapphireSteel]

http://www.kcrg.com/evansdaledisappearance/timeline

This timeline says last time seen was 12.15.

BHCSO seem to have erased all mention of the girls from their website - at least I can't find anything.

Not even in the "press releases" section.

 

[BunnyHop]

Have a look at the interior photos and decide for yourself ... does it look like the door at the back would be used as often as the door at the front? It does to me.

When there is a scheduled auction, many buyers attend. They will park wherever they find a spot. Front, back, wherever. If they are serious buyers, they will park wherever it's easiest to load their vehicles. Much depends on each auction house and how they load. I speak from experience.

Auctions are scheduled. The rest of the time, the house is loading and preparing for said schedules. The only people that would come in "ahead of time", are serious buyers looking over auction items.

 

[SapphireSteel]

So we are then assuming that he only called his daughter once while out on a bike ride? I think if it was normal enough that he called her that day, it's not unplausible that he called her the day before or two days before.

People are mistaken all the time. It's human.

He called his daughter at 12:27 on July 13. That doesn't prove that he saw bikes on the trail that day. He may have seen them the day before or two days.

Obviously you can assume what you like.

I am assuming that when he came on WS to defend himself he was telling the truth, as was his daughter and I will continue to assume that until I see something other than opinion to prove the opposite.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Let's look at this from another angle.

We know grandma and her grandson hit the road looking for the girls at 12.30.

She specifically said she went to Meyers Lake at this time.

If the girls were not abducted already, why did she not see them?