IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #29

[BunnyHop]

This "timeline" is making me dizzy. :rolling:


Some other cyclists popping up from where, I do not know.
I thought there was just one, so yes I'm confused.

I prefer to focus on motive, coincidences, acquaintances, teenagers, internet connections, SO's etc..... than nit-picking about the time line and hearsay. :twocents:

:truce:

 

[BunnyHop]

Police have stated that the girls disappeared while cycling. If you have any information about the children disappearing while walking when their bikes were a mile away, please post a link.

What's implied is the bikes may have been staged there. Which is a possibility.

 

[BunnyHop]

IMO the ONLY reliable thing on the timeline prior to the finding of the bikes IS the videotape. Everything else is eyewitness and therefore potentially unreliable. Including Wilmas statement as to when they left

Good point.

 

[carbuff]

IMO the ONLY reliable thing on the timeline prior to the finding of the bikes IS the videotape. Everything else is eyewitness and therefore potentially unreliable. Including Wilmas statement as to when they left

An excellent point. Even the most upright, honorable, reliable person with good vision and a good view can get things wrong. It's just the nature of human perception. Saying that somebody's sighting didn't pan out does not in the least imply that person was lying.

 

[Reverie]

12:15 - Children at Brovan near Elizabeth's house (video)
12:30 - information that children at Brovan (probably a tip)
12:30-1:00 - information that children at Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus (Elmer/Gilbert is entrance to Meyers Lake parking lot, Maiden Lane is off Arbutus)
2:00 - bikes at gate per jogger (tip)
3:40 - bikes at gate per volunteer firefighter search
3:58 - bikes confirmed at gate per investigators

12:28 - cyclist at Meyers Lake parking lot per cell phone (Elmer/Gilbert)
12:30-1:00 ish - cyclist at Elmer/Gilbert heading East on Gilbert and then North on Evansdale Nature Trail to Lafayette
1:00-1:30 ish - cyclist on East end of Meyers Lake heading South across pedestrian bridge

The children's remains were found 20 miles North in a secluded area at Seven Bridges County Park on December 5.

"Rick Abben, chief deputy at the Black Hawk County Sheriff’s Office, said in a statement Thursday. “Both girls were last seen on July 13 at 12:15 p.m. riding their bicycles away from the Collins residence in Evansdale. We have information that the girls were seen approximately 12:23 p.m. on Brovan Blvd. and between 12:30 and 1:00 p.m. on Gilbert DR. in the area of Meyers Lake in Evansdale.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-missing-2-months-authorities-plead-for-help/

Otto, do you think this is possible:
12:15 Grandma sees the girls riding away.
12:23 CCTV behind Cornbelt Auction(A very specific time). Iirc, the number of minutes slow was not confirmed by LE...only by the business owner. Please correct me if I am wrong. The girls may have ridden around the block a time or two, with their LAST passing by the camera being at exactly 12:23.

I believe LE has given an accurate timeline. No red herrings.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The official "last seen" remains 12.15.

The email screenshot that Otto is posting is an internal memo from the Governor's dept of Drug Policy forwarding around the poster.

Whoever was in charge of transmitting the poster within the Drug Policy office is the one who put the 2pm info on that email as fact when it has never been confirmed as fact.

Otto I ask again - where did you get that screen dump, and why is an internal memo from the Drug Policy Office considered more valid than the Evansdale Police?

TIA.

 

[tlcya]

IMO the ONLY reliable thing on the timeline prior to the finding of the bikes IS the videotape. Everything else is eyewitness and therefore potentially unreliable. Including Wilmas statement as to when they left

THIS right here.

 

[otto]

What's implied is the bikes may have been staged there. Which is a possibility.

Police have released information that the children were riding their bikes at the lake at 12:30-1:00, so if they were staged, it happened after the children arrived at the park.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel, I am going to watch the video you posted of the gentleman who filmed the area where the girls' bodies were supposedy found. I'm open to this possibly being government land, but now private. There is a similar roadside park in my area. It was at one point government funded. It had picnic tables and huge oak trees. It was not secluded, just a convenient place to pull off the road during a long drive or even have a nice picnic. Due to lack of funds, the park has been closed. They removed the picnic tables and fenced it off. I know they did it to keep people from using it, but it actually looks like it might be private land now. By the way, the edge of the former park is heavily wooded and I always thought someone would not have to travel far to dump a body there and would not be discovered for some time.

I wasn't happy about the park closing. It had been there as long as I could remember. Got my first kiss on the cheek there when our third grade class stopped to eat our sack lunches after a trip to the zoo. He had to work for that kiss too. He chased me around the trees and over the big rocks. . .

Awww cute story.

According to the hunter, only one tiny piece of seven bridges is privately owned, and that is where the girls were found.

I'm hopeless with maps but I could almost follow exactly where they were driving in the video even though it is heavily edited.

The old guy wasn't 100% sure but as sure as he could be, bearing in mind he has spent most of his life prowling over that particular piece of land, and has specific permission to hunt in the privately owned part.

So far, we have four men speaking about this crime. Four regular, respectable townsfolk.

I can understand one person trying to "insinuate themselves into the investigation" by giving false/erronous testimony.

What I can't accept is all four of them doing it consecutively, independant of each other.

Mr hunter, Mr G, Mr P and Mr C all lying/mistaken as is being suggested here?

Nope.

:twocents:

 

[otto]

The official "last seen" remains 12.15.

The email screenshot that Otto is posting is an internal memo from the Governor's dept of Drug Policy forwarding around the poster.

Whoever was in charge of transmitting the poster within the Drug Policy office is the one who put the 2pm info on that email as fact when it has never been confirmed as fact.

Otto I ask again - where did you get that screen dump, and why is an internal memo from the Drug Policy Office considered more valid than the Evansdale Police?

TIA.

The screen shot is not an email and not an internal memo. It is widely available through the Iowa government website.

The facts outlined in the pdf file are provided by the Iowa government.

As I mentioned in my response the last time you asked the same question, the screen shot of that official government information has the link posted on it.

Criticizing the source and calling the official Iowa government document an "internal memo", "email", or "screen dump" does not change the fact that according to the Iowa government, the bikes were first seen by a jogger at 2:00 PM.

Is there a problem with the government of Iowa releasing a statement about when the bikes were first seen at the gate on July 13? Shouldn't that information be helpful and appreciated? There have been so many comments where people believe that police are not releasing enough information, and here we have some information ... yet the information released by officials is doubted and criticized ... why is that?

 

[Marilynilpa]

This "timeline" is making me dizzy. :rolling:


Some other cyclists popping up from where, I do not know.
I thought there was just one, so yes I'm confused.

I prefer to focus on motive, coincidences, acquaintances, teenagers, internet connections, SO's etc..... than nit-picking about the time line and hearsay. :twocents:

:truce:

You call it nit-picking, I call it fact finding (when it's me:blushing, but the truth is, we've been debating the timeline issue for months, and the cyclist's statements have been taken apart practically word for word, it seems - and yet none of us, IMO, are one iota closer to finding out who abducted these two wonderful little girls, murdered them and left them so callously out in the open at 7 Bridges. JMO

 

[BunnyHop]

Police have released information that the children were riding their bikes at the lake at 12:30-1:00, so if they were staged, it happened after the children arrived at the park.

BBM. OK. they were seen per this link 12:30-1:00:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-missing-2-months-authorities-plead-for-help/

But, what if the bikes spotted @12:28 were not their bikes?
or
what if they were their bikes and the girls were not visible at that particular moment-then returned to their bikes and then rode over to Gilbert?

 

[otto]

It almost seems like we need two sub-threads for this case: one for those that reject police statements and embrace people that approach media with stories or upload video to the net, and one for those that accept police statements and are skeptical regarding people that approach the media and upload videos.

 

[otto]

BBM. OK. they were seen per this link 12:30-1:00:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-missing-2-months-authorities-plead-for-help/

But, what if the bikes spotted @12:28 were not their bikes?
or
what if they were their bikes and the girls were not visible at that particular moment-then returned to their bikes and then rode over to Gilbert?

No one spotted bikes at 12:28. The cyclist was at the NW tip of Meyers Lake, in the parking lot, and used his phone at 12:28. He originally said that he was at the SE tip of Meyers Lake at 12:20. At that time, the children and their bikes were on Brovan. At 12:30-1:00, they were in the area of Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus. The lawn watering man on Lake Avenue said that he saw the girls on their bikes after lunch while he was watering his lawn. He said that he recognized Elizabeth because she often cycled in the area.

If the cyclist saw two bikes, they did not belong to the children. That means that he is not a witness and whatever he saw is unrelated to the abduction/murder of the children.

It is possible to think the cyclist is a fine man, and also recognize that his comments to the media are unrelated to this case. It seems that this is the position that police have taken.

 

[Squeeze]

It was said that a trespasser went on his property and took pictures. I think that refers to when I went to Evansdale last summer and took pictures. I took a picture of the entrance to his driveway, that was NOT private property but a public road. A public road, is not private property.

Are you referring to TG? Wasn't it determined that the street itself is actually private property? Cuz he pays to have the street plowed?

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM. OK. they were seen per this link 12:30-1:00:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-missing-2-months-authorities-plead-for-help/

But, what if the bikes spotted @12:28 were not their bikes?
or
what if they were their bikes and the girls were not visible at that particular moment-then returned to their bikes and then rode over to Gilbert?

In my opinion this sighting can be taken with a grain of salt as can all others, as Abben stated quite clearly "the girls were last seen at 12.15".

There is nothing confusing about this statement. The last seen time is 12.15 on every msm I can find.

If he mentioned other possible sightings it was an attempt to jog people's memories and open their minds, nothing more.

Originally Posted by SapphireSteel

Sightings officially confirmed by LE -

12.15 on Brovan (our girls on bikes).
Two bikes found at the lake at 4.

Unconfirmed but mentioned by LE -

Lake Avenue/Gilbert (Mr C) 12.00-3.00
TG's sighting (bikes only) at 12.20
Jogger at 2.00 who saw only the dumped bikes at the lake
Brovan 12.30 - 1pm girls on bikes.

Not mentioned by LE at all -

The boy at the lake who told Tammy he saw nothing
The cyclist at the lake who told Tammy he saw the girls on their bikes heading down the bike path.

Have I got it right?

The 1pm sighting is now in the correct spot in my timeline.

Hopefully we can agree this is accurate and it will end the bickering once and for all.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The screen shot is not an email and not an internal memo. It is widely available through the Iowa government website.

The facts outlined in the pdf file are provided by the Iowa government.

As I mentioned in my response the last time you asked the same question, the screen shot of that official government information has the link posted on it.

Criticizing the source and calling the official Iowa government document an "internal memo", "email", or "screen dump" does not change the fact that according to the Iowa government, the bikes were first seen by a jogger at 2:00 PM.

Is there a problem with the government of Iowa releasing a statement about when the bikes were first seen at the gate on July 13? Shouldn't that information be helpful and appreciated? There have been so many comments where people believe that police are not releasing enough information, and here we have some information ... yet the information released by officials is doubted and criticized ... why is that?

<modsnip>

The link leads to the Governors Office Of Drug Control Policy, not the Evansdale Police or BHCSO.

It is clearly not "the official statement from investigators". If it was, it would be on the letterhead of the BHCSO or the Evansdale Police or even the FBI.

The jogger only saw the bikes not the girls, and no one's disputing the bikes were there, so I'm not quite sure what is important about this detail.

Again, where did you get this screen dump? Perhaps a link would be more helpful than directions....:waitasec:

Also, Deputy Abben said -

"The girls were last seen at 12.15pm".

This is fairly black and white to me. All other possible sightings are just that, possible sightings. None confirmed, even by the goon at the Governors Office of Drug Control Policy.

 

[BunnyHop]

No one spotted bikes at 12:28. The cyclist was at the NW tip of Meyers Lake, in the parking lot, and used his phone at 12:28. He originally said that he was at the SE tip of Meyers Lake at 12:20. At that time, the children and their bikes were on Brovan. At 12:30-1:00, they were in the area of Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus. The lawn watering man on Lake Avenue said that he saw the girls on their bikes after lunch while he was watering his lawn. He said that he recognized Elizabeth because she often cycled in the area.

If the cyclist saw two bikes, they did not belong to the children. That means that he is not a witness and whatever he saw is unrelated to the abduction/murder of the children.

It is possible to think the cyclist is a fine man, and also recognize that his comments to the media are unrelated to this case. It seems that this is the position that police have taken.

So what you are saying is, the bikes he saw on the path did not belong to the girls....correct?

 

[otto]

Yes, he did indeed say that.

His daughter has even gone to the FBI for advice on the "sleuthing" her father has endured.

I have no clue if this relates to WS or not, but the man has been sleuthed over and over again on this forum.

I thought that the cyclist's daughter stated on this forum that she spoke with local police about the case ... and that they were very happy to meet with her and listen to her concerns, but that they were unable to release any privileged information to her.

 

[otto]

I've already answered this but here we go again -



Again, where did you get this screen dump? Perhaps a link would be more helpful than directions....:waitasec:

Also, Deputy Abben said -

"The girls were last seen at 12.15pm".

This is fairly black and white to me. All other possible sightings are just that, possible sightings. None confirmed, even by the goon at the Governors Office of Drug Control Policy.

Regarding the quote, do you happen to have a context and date ... like a link?

I don't understand why you are asking the same question again and referring to an official government document as a screen dump. The link is on the image.

Have a look ... there it is, right at the top of the image.