IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #29

[SapphireSteel]

It seems there is consensus!

Back to the post that started all the debate, now tweaked -

Sightings officially confirmed by LE -

12.15 on Brovan (our girls on bikes).
Two bikes found at the lake at 4.

Unconfirmed but mentioned by LE -

Lake Avenue/Gilbert (Mr C) 12.00-3.00
TG's sighting at 12.20
Jogger at 2.00 who saw only the dumped bikes at the lake

Not mentioned by LE at all -

The boy at the lake who told Tammy he saw nothing
The cyclist at the lake who told Tammy he saw the girls on their bikes heading down the bike path.

Have I got it right?

:cow:

Can we put that in stone somewhere or does it still need work?

 

[georger]

My mistake, the 12:23 sighting may not be the last confirmed sighting.

“Today marks two months since the disappearance of 11-year-old Lyric Cook and 9-year-old Elizabeth Collins,” Rick Abben, chief deputy at the Black Hawk County Sheriff’s Office, said in a statement Thursday. “Both girls were last seen on July 13 at 12:15 p.m. riding their bicycles away from the Collins residence in Evansdale. We have information that the girls were seen approximately 12:23 p.m. on Brovan Blvd. and between 12:30 and 1:00 p.m. on Gilbert DR. in the area of Meyers Lake in Evansdale.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-missing-2-months-authorities-plead-for-help/

Since LE has released such little info, I tend to take whatever they give us very seriously. I think these times are important, not an attempt at misdirection by LE. JMO

I have to believe LE has nothing - literally. The facts of the case may be beyond their
ability and venue to investigate. Evidently wasn't going to open in their laps. That may
speak to a long distance connection - out of State as the FBI spokesperson first said.

 

[alliemay]

I'm more interested in the 12:30 to 1:00 siting, especially since the bikes were seen by the jogger at 2:00, it makes it seem like the girls were taken between 1:00 and 2:00 pm.

 

[otto]

LE will not tip their hand. If in fact there was a jogger............

It seems that there was indeed a jogger ... at 2M ... who saw the bikes at the gate:

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm more interested in the 12:30 to 1:00 siting, especially since the bikes were seen by the jogger at 2:00, it makes it seem like the girls were taken between 1:00 and 2:00 pm.

Okay...that isn't on my list.

Do you have a link for that somewhere? TIA

 

[otto]

Jogger saw the bikes at 2 o'clock. The jogger information came after TG made his "public debut" with his 12:20ish time. He should clearly post "Private Property! Trespassers will be prosecuted!" on his property line and then do it.

You absolutely could be right RNer - I have no proof as to say otherwise.

Personally, I don't think he is the jogger, but who knows? At first glance, I never would have guessed he was an avid cyclist either. :floorlaugh:

Why would anyone think that a police report about a jogger at 2:00 PM means a cyclist at 12:20? Police have no reason to mislead the public about the timeline of the children prior to their abduction and murder, so wouldn't that mean that a jogger is a jogger and 2 PM is 2 PM?

 

[otto]

I'm more interested in the 12:30 to 1:00 siting, especially since the bikes were seen by the jogger at 2:00, it makes it seem like the girls were taken between 1:00 and 2:00 pm.

This is where everyone was at that time

 

[SapphireSteel]

It seems that there was indeed a jogger ... at 2M ... who saw the bikes at the gate:

So which to believe - a pdf of a brief description of the circumstances typed up by the Iowa Governor's Office of Drug Control Policy, or the Spokesperson for the Evansdale Police?

Seeing as the Governors Office isn't the chief investigating agency in this crime, I'm going with what Abben said rather than something typed up by a staffer in a policy office, whose only involvement with the investigation appears to be forwarding a missing child and adding their (inaccurate) two cents worth while they were at it.

Abben said 12.15pm was the last confirmed sighting.

 

[otto]

12:15 - Children at Brovan near Elizabeth's house (video)
12:30 - information that children at Brovan (probably a tip)
12:30-1:00 - information that children at Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus (Elmer/Gilbert is entrance to Meyers Lake parking lot, Maiden Lane is off Arbutus)
2:00 - bikes at gate per jogger (tip)
3:40 - bikes at gate per volunteer firefighter search
3:58 - bikes confirmed at gate per investigators

12:28 - cyclist at Meyers Lake parking lot per cell phone (Elmer/Gilbert)
12:30-1:00 ish - cyclist at Elmer/Gilbert heading East on Gilbert and then North on Evansdale Nature Trail to Lafayette
1:00-1:30 ish - cyclist on East end of Meyers Lake heading South across pedestrian bridge

The children's remains were found 20 miles North in a secluded area at Seven Bridges County Park on December 5.

"Rick Abben, chief deputy at the Black Hawk County Sheriff’s Office, said in a statement Thursday. “Both girls were last seen on July 13 at 12:15 p.m. riding their bicycles away from the Collins residence in Evansdale. We have information that the girls were seen approximately 12:23 p.m. on Brovan Blvd. and between 12:30 and 1:00 p.m. on Gilbert DR. in the area of Meyers Lake in Evansdale.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-missing-2-months-authorities-plead-for-help/

 

[otto]

So which to believe - a pdf of a brief description of the circumstances typed up by the Iowa Governor's Office of Drug Control Policy, or the Spokesperson for the Evansdale Police?

Seeing as the Governors Office isn't the chief investigating agency in this crime, I'm going with what Abben said rather than something typed up by a staffer in a policy office, whose only involvement with the investigation appears to be forwarding a missing child and adding their (inaccurate) two cents worth while they were at it.

Abben said 12.15pm was the last confirmed sighting.

A jogger saw the bikes at the gate at 2:00 PM.

In what way do police statements contradict the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigations?

Why is it important to dispute police statements regarding the timeline of the children prior to their disappearance?

 

[otto]

Does anyone remember when this case first broke the news was they were last seen behind a shop. What shop by whom and who,works or patronizes said shop? Does anyone know? Were the owners or any shoppers at this shop that day, even interviewed?

The children were 8 and 10 when they were abducted and murdered. They were last seen on video behind the Cornbelt Auction on Brovan, a half block from the home of Elizabeth Collins.

 

[otto]

So, the official Last Seen is at 12.15 on Brovan. They have received other information but only one sighting is officially confirmed.

In September, police released a statement that they had information that the girls were on Brovan at 12:23 and at Gilbert/Elmer/Arbutus between 12:30 and 1:00.

Is there any reason that we should doubt the police statement?

 

[otto]

I dont know, I'd kind of dismissed all sightings except TG's and RC's and perhaps the shop staff which we don't officially know about.

That screen dump you keep posting is actually off the website of the ODCP - it is clearly a copy of an internal email forwarding the poster and the alert to other law enforcement agencies.

It is unfortunate the person who orignally forwarded the alert and wrote the email added some incorrect detail, but if you go to the source document it is amply clear the information does not come from the IDCI, it comes from the ODCP's office on behalf of the IDCI.


It's either nit-picking or Fact Finding, depending on who's view it is.

I'll go for Fact Finding, and this is my whole reason for being here.

What is the purpose of dismissing police statements regarding the activities of the children prior to the disappearance?

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm not that convinced he is a witness.

Police have publicly stated, after the cyclist reported his story about two bikes on the trail, that they know nothing about it. The cyclist's story and time (12:20) has never been included in police statements regarding the children or their bikes. In fact, times provided by police place the girls a mile away on Brovan, in front of Elizabeth's home, at the time that the cyclist claims that he saw two bikes.

The cyclist went to the media and stated that he saw two bikes on the trail at the SE tip of Meyers Lake three days after the children were abducted. He was unable to describe the bikes.

There seems to be no reason to connect the cyclist's media report to this abduction and murder.

In fact, after carefully looking at the timelines and the routes, I think the cyclist could have crossed paths with the children, but it would have been at the intersection of Elmer and Gilbert, heading East on Gilbert towards Arbutus, or on the Evansdale Nature Trail between Lafayette and Gilbert. For months, it was speculated that the children cycled South on the Trail after asking directions at the Fareway Store. If they travelled South on the Trail between 12:30 and 1:00, they should have crossed paths with the cyclist, as he posted on this forum that he was travelling North on that trail after he left the Meyers Lake parking lot at 12:30.

The bikes and the girls are not the same thing.

The sightings you say LE refer to are all alleged sightings of the girls.

All TG ever said is that he saw two children's bikes. He didn't describe them, he didn't stop and touch them, he never once said they belonged to the girls.

If there was staging in this crimes, those bikes could easily have been put there at the same time the girls were biking down Brovan.

 

[otto]

The bikes and the girls are not the same thing.

The sightings you say LE refer to are all alleged sightings of the girls.

All TG ever said is that he saw two children's bikes. He didn't describe them, he didn't stop and touch them, he just kept biking.

If there was staging in this crimes, those bikes could easily have been put there at the same time the girls were biking down Brovan.

The girls were cycling on Brovan at 12:23, so their bikes could not be a mile away three minutes earlier.

 

[SapphireSteel]

What is the purpose of dismissing police statements regarding the activities of the children prior to the disappearance?

Because it has zero bearing on TG's sighting of the bikes. I'm not saying if they're accurate or not, they are explainable either way.

Now would you mind commenting on the pdf you keep posting? Where did you get it from?

TIA

 

[otto]

Asked and answered.

Now would you mind commenting on the pdf you keep posting? Where did you get it from?

TIA

The link is clearly posted on the image. I will continue posting it for those that are unaware of the official statement from investigators regarding a jogger that saw the bikes at the gate at 2:00 PM.

The police statements regarding the abduction and murder of the children are indeed unrelated to the cyclist's report to the media.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The girls were cycling on Brovan at 12:23, so their bikes could not be a mile away three minutes earlier.

How do we know they were?

All we know is two bikes were a mile away.

In fact there were probably hundreds of unridden bikes within a square mile of the girls at any given time. :waitasec:

The presence of the bikes at the lake does not exclude the presence of the girls on Brovan at the same time.

Two bikes ≠ Two little girls.

 

[otto]

How do we know they were?

All we know is two bikes were a mile away.

In fact there were probably hundreds of unridden bikes within a square mile of the girls at any given time. :waitasec:

The presence of the bikes at the lake does not exclude the presence of the girls on Brovan at the same time.

Two bikes ≠ Two little girls.

Police have stated that the girls disappeared while cycling. If you have any information about the children disappearing while walking when their bikes were a mile away, please post a link.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The link is clearly posted on the image. I will continue posting it for those that have forgotten that about the official statement from investigators regarding a jogger that saw the bikes at the gate at 2:00 PM.

The police statements regarding the abduction and murder of the children are indeed unrelated to the cyclist's report to the media.

The link leads to the Governors Office Of Drug Control Policy, not the Evansdale Police or BHCSO.

It is clearly not "the official statement from investigators". If it was, it would be on the letterhead of the BHCSO or the Evansdale Police or even the FBI.

The jogger only saw the bikes not the girls, and no one's disputing the bikes were there, so I'm not quite sure what is important about this detail.