IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #29

[jenandemmie]

I have been thinking a lot about whether the girls were headed to meet someone at the lake when they left the house, like a prearranged meeting. But I have almost talked myself out of it by considering the surveillance tape. If they left the house with the intention of meeting someone at Meyers Lake, why did the video footage show them going west on Brovan when they could have just as easily gone East towards the fastest straight route to the lake, via S. Evans Rd., which appears to have sidewalks all the way down. I remember seeing a quote that they previously had ridden around the old post office building parking lot before (not necessarily that day). S. Evans is the eastern border street of that lot and is almost a direct bee line to Lake Road, (Ave., whatever) where Mr. C lives and where one of E's closer friends (Nichol's granddaughter) lives as well. If she had been seen there several times, and frequently biked to her friend's home, I would think she would have taken that as the fastest route if they were meeting someone at the lake in the limited amount of time they had, considering they were supposed to be back quickly to leave for whatever appt. Wilma had scheduled. But they didn't head out in that direction. The video (if it's them) shows the figures going WEST on Brovan. It also does not appear as though they made subsequent rides past the camera at any other time or in the opposite direction. Why go that direction if they left the house with the intention of going to the lake when surely E's usual route to Lake Rd/Ave (I assume straight down S. Evans) would have been the fastest way? Even if you use the Sipple->Morrell->S. Evan route, it would still have made more sense than going in the opposite direction. This is almost enough for me to rule out a preplanned meeting. Unless...unless they had ridden there before using a different route and they didn't know that they could get there that way. Its not like they would have had the forethought to google map it ahead of time like we would in hindsight. But I also have to think that their little friend on Lake Rd would know about Meyers Lake just based on her proximity to it. We have a neighborhood park and my daughter was always asking to go there when she had friends over when she was that age. Maybe E played there before with other kids and she took L there. Heck I don't even know anymore. I spend all this time writing something out and then I reread it and come up with a conflicting thought. Grrrr! <pulls hair out of head>

 

[superbee]

Yeah I think the perp lives near the lake too, or did if not moved. I have always thought that Maiden Lane area suspect as where they departed from...I think they left the bikes rather willingly to follow someone<lured?>....to go someplace possibly close enough to go on foot, back in that immediate area.

and I dunno why, but I sometimes think once the perp is know, people are going to be surprised/shocked. imo

I share the same thoughts.

 

[cindersoot]

I have been thinking a lot about whether the girls were headed to meet someone at the lake when they left the house, like a prearranged meeting. But I have almost talked myself out of it by considering the surveillance tape. If they left the house with the intention of meeting someone at Meyers Lake, why did the video footage show them going west on Brovan when they could have just as easily gone East towards the fastest straight route to the lake, via S. Evans Rd., which appears to have sidewalks all the way down. I remember seeing a quote that they previously had ridden around the old post office building parking lot before (not necessarily that day). S. Evans is the eastern border street of that lot and is almost a direct bee line to Lake Road, (Ave., whatever) where Mr. C lives and where one of E's closer friends (Nichol's granddaughter) lives as well. If she had been seen there several times, and frequently biked to her friend's home, I would think she would have taken that as the fastest route if they were meeting someone at the lake in the limited amount of time they had, considering they were supposed to be back quickly to leave for whatever appt. Wilma had scheduled. But they didn't head out in that direction. The video (if it's them) shows the figures going WEST on Brovan. It also does not appear as though they made subsequent rides past the camera at any other time or in the opposite direction. Why go that direction if they left the house with the intention of going to the lake when surely E's usual route to Lake Rd/Ave (I assume straight down S. Evans) would have been the fastest way? Even if you use the Sipple->Morrell->S. Evan route, it would still have made more sense than going in the opposite direction. This is almost enough for me to rule out a preplanned meeting. Unless...unless they had ridden there before using a different route and they didn't know that they could get there that way. Its not like they would have had the forethought to google map it ahead of time like we would in hindsight. But I also have to think that their little friend on Lake Rd would know about Meyers Lake just based on her proximity to it. We have a neighborhood park and my daughter was always asking to go there when she had friends over when she was that age. Maybe E played there before with other kids and she took L there. Heck I don't even know anymore. I spend all this time writing something out and then I reread it and come up with a conflicting thought. Grrrr! <pulls hair out of head>

The girls rode past Caseys is that right? Past where Lyrics mom works? Do I remember that correctly?

 

[Marilynilpa]

The girls rode past Caseys is that right? Past where Lyrics mom works? Do I remember that correctly?

I don't think that's right.:waitasec:

 

[Bootsctr]

I thought Wilma drove to Casey's thinking the girls might have ridden there to see Misty ?

Was there another Casey's the girls were rumored to have stopped to get directions? Maybe not a Casey's, another store ? ullhair: ullhair: This case is making me pull my hair out too!

 

[ShyViolet]

I don't see "confirmation of the possibility" as being the same thing as confirmation that Elizabeth did indeed ride to Meyers Lake.

At first, Elizabeth's mother says that Elizabeth doesn't wander. She then changes the statement to reflect that Elizabeth had wandered "with Lyric" but only for a "few blocks." It sounds to me as if the mother believes that Elizabeth would not have strayed away from her home if not for Lyric. However, Mrs. Carpenter said it was Elizabeth she was used to seeing "every night ride her bicycle" and Elizabeth who "was a friendly little girl" and "always stopped and talked to people." I seriously doubt that Lyric was at Meyers Lake every night. She would have been at her home in Waterloo.

It appears from the transcript that Elizabeth's mother was adament that Elizabeth had not been to Meyers Lake by herself in the past. She only conceded the possibility that she had when Elizabeth's father brought it to her attention.



Transcription:
Begin time: 9:41

Heather: "Elizabeth doesn't wander. Every now and then they do - she has wandered with Lyric but never that far. It's been like a few blocks. Um, it's never been all the way down to Meyers Lake. Um, and --"

Reporter: "There have been witnesses that said I thought I've seen the girls before, you know, not just that day, but we've seen 'em before riding in that general vicinity, but..."

Heather: (shaking head) "And if they, if they, have been there's been an adult, you know, um --"

Drew: "Or they weren't supposed to be there."

Heather: (speech rate increases) "Or they weren't supposed to be there and we didn't know about it. So..."

End time: 10:12


http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...mix_1bc152e0-d767-11e1-bec1-0019bb2963f4.html

http://indianolarecordherald.desmoi...fter-their-disappearance?odyssey=mod|mostview

Sorry, but I don't understand how someone can possibly confirm, or omit, what they don't actually know.

 

[Bootsctr]

Mrs. Nichols in the article is Jurly Nichols, the grandmother of Lindsey Nichols shot to death in Jesup, Iowa on March 21, 2012 by Dr. Timothy Roses, an ex-boyfriend. Jurly is married to Ron Nichols.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20414007/2012/12/23/one-family-impacted-by-two-tragedies


Lindsey was the daughter of Tom Nichols, Black Hawk County Sheriff’s Deputy.

Lindsey was the former wife of Brandon Smock (I know the next question, but not the answer, but he's probably a relative).


Jurly Nichols and her husband do have an address on Evans Rd. They also have address on W. Gilbert and McCoy. I believe a couple of them are rental properties.

Oh no! This is a very tragic story too! Beautiful young woman killed by an inhumane selfish individual because he couldn't have her. :furious:

 

[cindersoot]

I don't know why I thought I heard they rode by Caseys? I asked because there is a Caseys on LaFayette, kinda across to the bike trail that leads south to the lake.

 

[alliemay]

I don't know why I thought I heard they rode by Caseys? I asked because there is a Caseys on LaFayette, kinda across to the bike trail that leads south to the lake.

IIRC I think Lyric's mom worked at a different Casey's, and you probably did hear that they road past the Casey's on LaFayette, it was FB rumor, concerning someone there being questioned two times. Unfortunate, but we can't talk about that rumor, because for some reason I believe it, but have nothing to verify it.

 

[threecrazykids]

The girls rode past Caseys is that right? Past where Lyrics mom works? Do I remember that correctly?

Misty works in Elk Run. The other Casey's where the white van was is in Evansdale. 2 different Casey's.

 

[threecrazykids]

I thought Wilma drove to Casey's thinking the girls might have ridden there to see Misty ?

Was there another Casey's the girls were rumored to have stopped to get directions? Maybe not a Casey's, another store ? ullhair: ullhair: This case is making me pull my hair out too!

Rumor was Fareway (grocery store).

 

[otto]

Sorry, but I don't understand how someone can possibly confirm, or omit, what they don't actually know.

Heather and Drew should know whether Elizabeth ever cycled to visit her friend that lived near the lake. The question, regarding the children being at the lake, has always been: had Elizabeth cycled to the lake on her own prior to the abduction?

There has been denial from Tammy and Misty, but neither of them are the custodial parents of the abducted/murdered children. They don't know what Elizabeth did with permission from her parents. Wylma, Lyric's "parent", who was babysitting and didn't live in Evansdale, said the girls always stayed close to the Collin's home when she babysat, but if they didn't, they eventually heard her calling for them. Heather has said that when Elizabeth cycled to visit friends (perhaps on Lake or South Evans?), she called when she arrived. Drew seems vague on whether Elizabeth cycled to the lake.

If Elizabeth cycled to Lake Avenue regularly, then it is easy to understand that Elizabeth and Lyric were on Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus between 12:30 and 1:00 ... since Elizabeth had cycled there to visit friends in the past. She was simply taking a route that she had taken before and no one lured her there. Mr Carpenter and his wife recognized Elizabeth because they said she often cycled on their street in the evenings. A relative of Elizabeth's friend says that Elizabeth visited there often.

Either Elizabeth knew the route and had cycled there in the past, or she didn't. I've been under the impression that she had never, in her entire life, cycled from Brovan to Lake Avenue prior to the abduction ... as that is what the family has half said. I'm now wondering if that information was somewhat "white washed" to prevent anyone from thinking that an 8 year old routinely cycled up to a mile away. There's nothing wrong with that, but maybe there's a perception that it was irresponsible - especially in light of what has happened.

Today, I'm inclined to believe Mr Carpenter, his wife, and the grandparent of the friend. I think Elizabeth knew the route and had cycled there in the past, perhaps often. That completely changes my perception of what happened. Now, there is no reason to assume a perp lured the girls from Brovan. It's more likely that Elizabeth led Lyric to Lake Avenue and that at the Arbutus end of Lake Avenue, something went wrong. Either someone suggested they cross the grass and go to the drainage pipe gate, or they did that all by themselves and, after they arrived, they encountered a predator.

 

[otto]

I don't know why I thought I heard they rode by Caseys? I asked because there is a Caseys on LaFayette, kinda across to the bike trail that leads south to the lake.

We looked at the Caseys locations a while ago and someone asked me to map them ... here they are

The three dots in Evansdale relate to the Caseys locations, the other map shows their locations in relation to 7 Bridges County Park.

Cindersoot, you also asked about a straight line going South from the park and where that ended ... you can see that on the one map as well.

 

[foxbluff]

I have been thinking a lot about whether the girls were headed to meet someone at the lake when they left the house, like a prearranged meeting. But I have almost talked myself out of it by considering the surveillance tape. If they left the house with the intention of meeting someone at Meyers Lake, why did the video footage show them going west on Brovan when they could have just as easily gone East towards the fastest straight route to the lake, via S. Evans Rd., which appears to have sidewalks all the way down. I remember seeing a quote that they previously had ridden around the old post office building parking lot before (not necessarily that day). S. Evans is the eastern border street of that lot and is almost a direct bee line to Lake Road, (Ave., whatever) where Mr. C lives and where one of E's closer friends (Nichol's granddaughter) lives as well. If she had been seen there several times, and frequently biked to her friend's home, I would think she would have taken that as the fastest route if they were meeting someone at the lake in the limited amount of time they had, considering they were supposed to be back quickly to leave for whatever appt. Wilma had scheduled. But they didn't head out in that direction. The video (if it's them) shows the figures going WEST on Brovan. It also does not appear as though they made subsequent rides past the camera at any other time or in the opposite direction. Why go that direction if they left the house with the intention of going to the lake when surely E's usual route to Lake Rd/Ave (I assume straight down S. Evans) would have been the fastest way? Even if you use the Sipple->Morrell->S. Evan route, it would still have made more sense than going in the opposite direction. This is almost enough for me to rule out a preplanned meeting. Unless...unless they had ridden there before using a different route and they didn't know that they could get there that way. Its not like they would have had the forethought to google map it ahead of time like we would in hindsight. But I also have to think that their little friend on Lake Rd would know about Meyers Lake just based on her proximity to it. We have a neighborhood park and my daughter was always asking to go there when she had friends over when she was that age. Maybe E played there before with other kids and she took L there. Heck I don't even know anymore. I spend all this time writing something out and then I reread it and come up with a conflicting thought. Grrrr! <pulls hair out of head>

Stop pulling your hair out, Jen!!!

I for one think this is a super good post and appreciate all the thought you put into it. It all makes perfect sense to me. Ty.

 

[Considering]

I guess that's the clue that we've been missing for a long time ... family confirmation that Elizabeth did cycle that far often.

BBM. I disagree that there has been omission by the family. I've posted this link before to an interview from July 26th, in which Heather and Drew admit it was entirely possible that Elizabeth was biking farther than they knew. Seems to me we've had family confirmation that the possibility existed for quite some time now.

I don't see "confirmation of the possibility" as being the same thing as confirmation that Elizabeth did indeed ride to Meyers Lake.

Sorry, but I don't understand how someone can possibly confirm, or omit, what they don't actually know.

That's my point. Neither do I. It was your post that brought it up with "family confirmation that the possibility existed".

 

[LucyOso]

That's my point. Neither do I. It was your post that brought it up with "family confirmation that the possibility existed".

I know when I was a kid, I wandered a lot farther then my parents thought or knew. We did all sorts of things, like tubing the river or riding miles into to town, etc. and at the time, because they didn't specifically say do NOT do this, I felt it was ok to do or didn't think about it. My parents, had something happened to me on my many "journeys" would have not been certain either... "Yes, it is possible that she rode that far, but, we have never talked about it and I assumed (never occurred to me) she would". I just think the family is confused and journalistic questions are tricky and can be misleading and often omit content that can paint an entirely different picture or reality. I think what she is saying is, she had no idea about bike riding to the lake, but, given the circumstances now it is possible it was happening in the past and she just didn't know it (Remember she is NOT on trial here, folks). At least she isn't fibbing saying...I told them not to go that far. The reality is, it most likely never crossed her mind that kids are going to be kids and riding to lake was something she should forbid prior to it happening. I have kids and know how this goes. Sometimes kids drop hints and normal parents who are preoccupied miss them. Or sometimes kids find out about places to explore from peers when out playing and go explore them. Most kids do not want to embarrass themselves saying, No...I have to ask my mom.

My son is a great example of this...

He asked:" Can I go to the dog park?"
Me: "Dog park? Where is that?"
Him: "It is down ______ Road. It is not so far, it only took me 10 minutes to ride my bike there yesterday with _______ and the dog."
Me: "What do you mean you rode your bike 1 1/2 miles to the dog park with the dog and your friend yesterday without permission? You were only gone 45 minutes"
Him: "I know, it is really fast to get there, I told you. Can I go to the dog park, I won't be long?"

OR:

Me: "Where have you been, you are all muddy. How did you get so muddy in an hour?"
Him: "At the pond by the river, fishing with ____".
Me: "I told you not to go to the river without an adult, it is dangerous (parental rant about danger, drowning, etc, etc).
Him: "It was a pond NEXT to the river, not the river, Mom."
Me To self...he has a point.

Seriously, kids go where they go and get "the talk" after the parents find out. Unfortunately, in this case the girls never made it home for the "talk".

 

[otto]

I know when I was a kid, I wandered a lot farther then my parents thought or knew. We did all sorts of things, like tubing the river or riding miles into to town, etc. and at the time, because they didn't specifically say do NOT do this, I felt it was ok to do or didn't think about it. My parents, had something happened to me on my many "journeys" would have not been certain either... "Yes, it is possible that she rode that far, but, we have never talked about it and I assumed (never occurred to me) she would". I just think the family is confused and journalistic questions are tricky and can be misleading and often omit content that can paint an entirely different picture or reality. I think what she is saying is, she had no idea about bike riding to the lake, but, given the circumstances now it is possible it was happening in the past and she just didn't know it (Remember she is NOT on trial here, folks). At least she isn't fibbing saying...I told them not to go that far. The reality is, it most likely never crossed her mind that kids are going to be kids and riding to lake was something she should forbid prior to it happening. I have kids and know how this goes. Sometimes kids drop hints and normal parents who are preoccupied miss them. Or sometimes kids find out about places to explore from peers when out playing and go explore them. Most kids do not want to embarrass themselves saying, No...I have to ask my mom.

My son is a great example of this...

He asked:" Can I go to the dog park?"
Me: "Dog park? Where is that?"
Him: "It is down ______ Road. It is not so far, it only took me 10 minutes to ride my bike there yesterday with _______ and the dog."
Me: "What do you mean you rode your bike 1 1/2 miles to the dog park with the dog and your friend yesterday without permission? You were only gone 45 minutes"
Him: "I know, it is really fast to get there, I told you. Can I go to the dog park, I won't be long?"

OR:

Me: "Where have you been, you are all muddy. How did you get so muddy in an hour?"
Him: "At the pond by the river, fishing with ____".
Me: "I told you not to go to the river without an adult, it is dangerous (parental rant about danger, drowning, etc, etc).
Him: "It was a pond NEXT to the river, not the river, Mom."
Me To self...he has a point.

Seriously, kids go where they go and get "the talk" after the parents find out. Unfortunately, in this case the girls never made it home for the "talk".

You make a good point, but eye witness reports, specifically Mr Carpenter, his wife, and any other persons that were able to help narrow the timeline from 12:00 - 3:00 to 12:30-1:00, indicate that Elizabeth regularly cycled to Lake Avenue in the evenings. This wasn't a one time event according to people that lived near the lake. We also have the relative of one of Elizabeth's friends discussing Elizabeth cycling in the area. All of this points to the more llikely fact that Elizabeth routinely cycled to the lake.

The parents, on the other hand (specifically Heather, as Drew is vague about this point), and relatives of the children, have said that the children did not cycle to the park. I find it difficult to believe that Elizabeth cycled there so often, chatting with people that lived on the street, that people knew and recognized her, but that Drew and Heather knew absolutely nothing about it. It is possible, of course, but if that is the case, then it sounds like Elizabeth was an adventurous child and her parents were not entirely aware of what she was doing when she cycled in the evenings.

When Heather says that Elizabeth phoned when she arrived after cycling to her friend's house, did she mean the friend near the lake? If so, then she knew that Elizabeth cycled to the lake and that Elizabeth knew the route to the lake.

 

[otto]

I don't see "confirmation of the possibility" as being the same thing as confirmation that Elizabeth did indeed ride to Meyers Lake.

At first, Elizabeth's mother says that Elizabeth doesn't wander. She then changes the statement to reflect that Elizabeth had wandered "with Lyric" but only for a "few blocks." It sounds to me as if the mother believes that Elizabeth would not have strayed away from her home if not for Lyric. However, Mrs. Carpenter said it was Elizabeth she was used to seeing "every night ride her bicycle" and Elizabeth who "was a friendly little girl" and "always stopped and talked to people." I seriously doubt that Lyric was at Meyers Lake every night. She would have been at her home in Waterloo.

It appears from the transcript that Elizabeth's mother was adament that Elizabeth had not been to Meyers Lake by herself in the past. She only conceded the possibility that she had when Elizabeth's father brought it to her attention.

Transcription:
Begin time: 9:41

Heather: "Elizabeth doesn't wander. Every now and then they do - she has wandered with Lyric but never that far. It's been like a few blocks. Um, it's never been all the way down to Meyers Lake. Um, and --"

Reporter: "There have been witnesses that said I thought I've seen the girls before, you know, not just that day, but we've seen 'em before riding in that general vicinity, but..."

Heather: (shaking head) "And if they, if they, have been there's been an adult, you know, um --"

Drew: "Or they weren't supposed to be there."

Heather: (speech rate increases) "Or they weren't supposed to be there and we didn't know about it. So..."

End time: 10:12


http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...mix_1bc152e0-d767-11e1-bec1-0019bb2963f4.html

http://indianolarecordherald.desmoi...fter-their-disappearance?odyssey=mod|mostview

Reading between the lines, Heather/Drew seems to be saying that:

"wander" presumably means cycling more than a couple of blocks from home

• Elizabeth doesn't "wander"
• every now and then Elizabeth does "wander"
• Elizabeth "wandered" when she was with Lyric
• Elizabeth has never "wandered" to the lake
• if Elizabeth "wandered" to the lake she was with an adult
• if Elizabeth "wandered" to the lake she did it without permission

 

[Reverie]

His daughter was killed in Iowa?

OT: re: Lindsay Nichols murder
Article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-just-hours-revealed-new-lover-Facebook.html

 

[cindersoot]

It could be that the girls just recently started riding to the lake area often because they had befriended the perp. School let out the end of May and the kids summer started so they might of had some itime to become very friendly with him.