IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #31
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Not sure if I feel he is connected or not, if not him, then maybe someone he knew, someone in the same circle of sickness as himself. Most people tend to hang out with people that have the same likes that they do. Maybe the person who did this, was this guys fishing buddy and was bragging, or if he did it, he bragged to one of his friends. The road block in my mind tends to be stuck on the guy who tried twice to abduct before our girls were taken. Someone who worked or has worked at a factory in the Evansdale area. Still thinking one person, using some sort of weapon to make them get into the car. Still think he killed them somewhere other than seven bridges. JMO
Snufamonbobball
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This does explain how he is able to handle two at once! 6ft 6" x 240 lbs ! ?
Farm worker so in good physical condition.
:scared:[/QUOTE]
He would have been more than capable of carrying the girls bodies off the roadway and into the woods, even Lyric wouldn't have been a problem.
http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/up...cle_1042c3a8-c1fa-11e2-8e63-0019bb2963f4.html
New article with more info on Klunder.
New article with more info on Klunder.
Snufamonbobball
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Wow, more connections with Bremer county. You know who he reminds me of is John Gardner, the guy who killed Chelsea King and Amber DuBois. All that history and out walking (or should I say STALKING) the streets.
threecrazykids
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So far, this guy hasn't killed (that we know of). He even took the 3 year olds and drove them to a garbage bin to dispose of them versus killing them. We can only hope that this is the case with Kathlynn...that she's tied up somewhere.
So, quick question on the stats of these crimes...is it typical for someone to have such variances in their victims? Adult woman, then two 3 year olds, possibly Lyric and Elizabeth who were 8 and 10, and then a 12 and 15 year old?
I wonder why such variances in age. Very mentally ill man, regardless of the answer.
Also...he's not really "good" at what he does. The woman got away, he let the 3 year olds go, didn't kill anyone (that we know of YET, although we still don't know where Kathlynn is)...I wonder if he really can't go through with the actual killing once the "thrill of the hunt and capture" is over?? That would put Lyric and Elizabeth out of the norm of his typical offenses if he did indeed kill them.
So far, this guy hasn't killed (that we know of). He even took the 3 year olds and drove them to a garbage bin to dispose of them versus killing them. We can only hope that this is the case with Kathlynn...that she's tied up somewhere.
So, quick question on the stats of these crimes...is it typical for someone to have such variances in their victims? Adult woman, then two 3 year olds, possibly Lyric and Elizabeth who were 8 and 10, and then a 12 and 15 year old?
I wonder why such variances in age. Very mentally ill man, regardless of the answer.
Also...he's not really "good" at what he does. The woman got away, he let the 3 year olds go, didn't kill anyone (that we know of YET, although we still don't know where Kathlynn is)...I wonder if he really can't go through with the actual killing once the "thrill of the hunt and capture" is over?? That would put Lyric and Elizabeth out of the norm of his typical offenses if he did indeed kill them.
Good observations. However a guy with his limited capacity and physical
strength could easily kill by accident, yet he didn't. Let's see what
happens with the missing girl and how that fits any pattern... he might
very well have taken Lizzy and Lyric to 7-Bridges and just left them
thinking they would be found ? That might fit his pattern and his limited
thinking capacity? This guy was married. I wonder what his wife will have to say?
I want to take a moment to say: the response from LE and the public has been
magnificent imho. That includes posters here who try to help - Thanks!
threecrazykids
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Also, the fact that he took the two 3 year olds to a county park's garbage bin would make sense that he could have done this to Lizzie and Lyric as well. If he choked them COD would have been difficult to determine by the time they were found.
Although, I do believe that if he had left them alive at 7 bridges they would have probably been found long before December...unless their mouths were taped shut. There is enough activity there that I think they would have been found if they could have screamed for help.
cindersoot
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Threecrazykids, I'm thinking what you are thinking also, that if LE are even considering that this guy might be involved, means they never had a suspect. IDK
Gracelin
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I was looking at Hollye's map on the other thread. I am seeing how far spaced apart the scenes are from his home. Similar to the girls. He was in a half way house..gee whiz.. this case reeks of people in half way houses..
Snufamonbobball
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So far, this guy hasn't killed (that we know of). He even took the 3 year olds and drove them to a garbage bin to dispose of them versus killing them. We can only hope that this is the case with Kathlynn...that she's tied up somewhere.
So, quick question on the stats of these crimes...is it typical for someone to have such variances in their victims? Adult woman, then two 3 year olds, possibly Lyric and Elizabeth who were 8 and 10, and then a 12 and 15 year old?
I wonder why such variances in age. Very mentally ill man, regardless of the answer.
Also...he's not really "good" at what he does. The woman got away, he let the 3 year olds go, didn't kill anyone (that we know of YET, although we still don't know where Kathlynn is)...I wonder if he really can't go through with the actual killing once the "thrill of the hunt and capture" is over?? That would put Lyric and Elizabeth out of the norm of his typical offenses if he did indeed kill them.
Here's what I think (not that that means much) anyways, I think he grabbed the 20 yr old and discovered she wasn't compliant and was more sophisticated than he imagined, this failure left him frustrated. The 3 yr olds became victims of his transferred aggression and frustration because he was unable to complete the attack on the 20 yr old, but after he grabbed them, he didn't know what to do with them because that age group was not his preferred target, so he dumped them. Keep in mind, he didn't turn them loose where they'd be found warm and safe, he dumped them like garbage in a dumpster-that is an act, that although it's not overtly aggressive, it is hostile. Then he runs, runs to Fl and then to TX, gets caught and is sentenced to prison.
While he's in prison, he does all the things he's supposed to do, and probably does well in a controlled structured environment, certainly nothing that would raise any big red flags, go hop over to his facebook page and check out what his favorite quotation is. https://www.facebook.com/michael.klunder.10/info?collection_token=100001908411050:2327158227:35
Once he's released from prison, he meets a nice girl, has a home, everything is looking up, but he has predatory urges, as this guy is a predator. For instance, I have 3 cats. 2 of the three aren't predatory, if a bird came by they might reach their paw out, but the instinct to hunt and kill it just isn't very strong. My other cat is a predator. He figured out how to open my son's gerbil cage and got poor little Speedy out, and killed him. The few times he's been outdoors, he brought back a snake and 2 baby bunnies. My cat doesn't want for food, he has all the food he wants and needs, he kills things because his predatory drive is strong. Klunder is like my cat. He's a predator. That instinct to have complete control over something else and the excitement that comes with it, is very strong.
So he gets out of prison and gets married, but the urges are still intact. He's grown up from when he went into prison, and is more calculating than before. His experience has taught him that a 20 yr old victim was a lot of trouble, and she got him caught-way to messy to attempt that again. He starts looking for easier targets, ones that are less sophisticated and would be easier to gain compliance and control over, he already knows that 3 yr olds aren't really his "thing", so what does that leave? teens and children.
Now I have no idea whether he had anything to do with E & L case, but this scenario works for both E & L and Kathlynn and the 12 yr old. He may have only gotten "inspiration" from E & L case.
He decides on younger girls, ones that would have a little bit of freedom from their parents, ones that wouldn't be missed immediately like a 3 yr old would be, kids that might go off on an adventure and loose track of time-would 2 be a viable option? Could he control 2 at once? I would be willing to bet that he did a few "dry runs", he would talk to kids and see what their comfort level was, what can you say that puts them at ease-he used a ruse in his past abduction, I'd guess he tried out a few to see what would fly. Kids in pairs probably also have their guards down more than a child alone as well.
If he did kill E & L, clearly he would have been very satisfied with himself, but they've been buried now, and his high is gone, and the urge comes back, he knows he can't grab someone from the same area again, so he looks a bit closer to home (he's also more comfortable with what he's doing now, he was successful before), and so he waits, he waits until he sees opportunities, and if it presents itself, he's already got a plan laid out, where he'd go, and what he'd do. If he had nothing to do with E & L, it would be hard to get away from the news coverage of it here, and he looks and thinks "Hey I can do that too."
To me, it makes sense if his victim selection changed from 20 to younger girls, they're easier to manipulate and control. I think the 3 yr olds were nothing more than victims of opportunity and were taken out of frustration that he wasn't able to complete the attack on the 20 yr old.
Obviously this Klunder story has a long way to play out, and I really hope it brings some conclusion to E&L case, if it's not him, then there's another predator walking with us.
SapphireSteel
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Here's what I think -
This guy is beyond disorganised...leaving toddlers in trash cans alive is a prime example of scattered thinking.
The hallmark of the girls case, to me, is organisation.
He's unlikely to be responsible for our girls IMO.
:moo:
This guy is beyond disorganised...leaving toddlers in trash cans alive is a prime example of scattered thinking.
The hallmark of the girls case, to me, is organisation.
He's unlikely to be responsible for our girls IMO.
:moo:
threecrazykids
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I tend to agree with you. I see scattered thinking as well as almost panic behavior every time he actually commits his crimes. It's almost as if he's unable to control the urge to capture/abduct/kidnap - but then doesn't really know what to do with them once he has them. All of his victims have gotten away - whether he himself shoved them out of the car, drove them miles away and dumped them in a dumpster, or they were able to somehow escape. That screams impulsive behavior.
I personally think that the reason that Abben commented on this guy is because they had the media and the community all over it because it was two girls within the state of Iowa, period. He even said "this isn't the first time we've been through this". I think they already know that he's not their guy - but they can keep the public and the media happy by saying "they're looking into it". I'm sure everyone would love to think we've eliminated "the enemy"...but I'm not sold on this guy yet.
Bootsctr
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I think they were killed at Meyers Lake. The pictures that cindersoot took gave a very clear advantage point the killer would have had on Maiden's Lane. He had enough time to snuff the life out of them and dispose of them at 7-Bridges.
Angleena
@}--`--,----
So now I am curious if Lyric and Lizzie had their hands zip tied after reading "Desi's" story on the Dayton Leader.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/dayton-leader/i-dont-want-to-be-called-a-hero/482900571780030
I can just see Lizzie and Lyric getting in to a vehicle with someone who asked them if they wanted to make a little money mowing laws. Who would even think it was a ploy, especially if he had a lawnmower in the back of his truck.
It just makes me think of the distance between Lyric and Lizzie. Did one try to run away? Was one shot? Were they both shot?
My heart is just breaking after reading the words of brave little "Desi". I can't even begin the imagine the terror all four of these girls must have gone through....cases related or not.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/dayton-leader/i-dont-want-to-be-called-a-hero/482900571780030
I can just see Lizzie and Lyric getting in to a vehicle with someone who asked them if they wanted to make a little money mowing laws. Who would even think it was a ploy, especially if he had a lawnmower in the back of his truck.
It just makes me think of the distance between Lyric and Lizzie. Did one try to run away? Was one shot? Were they both shot?
My heart is just breaking after reading the words of brave little "Desi". I can't even begin the imagine the terror all four of these girls must have gone through....cases related or not.
That's my assumption, based on the AP's recent article appearing in the WCF Courier, http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/update-man-who-kidnapped-iowa-girls-had-long-record/article_1042c3a8-c1fa-11e2-8e63-0019bb2963f4.html, stating that he lived at such a facility in Bremer County. Bremwood is the only residential treatment facility for juveniles that I know of in the county. While living at Bremwood, kids attend the Waverly-Shell Rock School District.
Ommmm
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I agree. After reading her story I'm thinking the same things. Leading one off into the woods, coming back for the other. They would be slightly spaced apart. It just makes sense. A lot of things just make sense :/
More than anything, I just hope they can bring Kathlynn home to her family soon.
How would he get the bodies to a vehicle without being seen, parked where?
SapphireSteel
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I remember this happening in the Jessica Ridgeway case too, there was a second little girl who was kidnapped and sexually assaulted pretty much at the same time in the same area.
Even I thought they had to be related, they were so similar...too coincidental.
It turned out to be two separate perps, both sick individuals, operating separately and no relation whatsoever.
I think the same is true here - the crime we have is abduction and homicide. This guy has let his victims go, and had not badly hurt them while he had them.
It's beyond scary to think there can be two separate lunatics running around Iowa kidnapping girls in their twos which is why every one wants this guy to be the perp so badly...but he's just too much of a flake to have pulled off the girls imo.
:sigh:
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