IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

[Foxfire]

<snipped the quote>

What withheld information, critical to the investigation, do you think should have been released to the public such that it would have solved the crime?

otto, it is impossible to know what critical info was withheld by investigators, or whether it would have solved the crime if known. It is an unknown..

As we all know, the awareness of abductions and missing persons by the majority of the American public has grown leaps and bounds in the last decade or two for a multitude of reasons.
As someone alluded too earlier, it is not about satisfying the public's curiosity. It is about a very concerned community wanting desperately to help in any way they could. Over 900 people showed up on 07/15/2012 to help in the search for L & L. Their only motives were to help bring the victims home safely, identify the suspect/s, and then bring them to justice.

Media management by law enforcement in high profile abduction/missing persons investigations is critical. The ms media is a very effective tool if utilized properly. When the response by LE/PIO to the msm questions are predominately, "I am sorry, we can't reveal that information due to it being an ongoing investigation". The case, more often than not, has an unsuccessful conclusion, from my experience and imo.

Below is one very important and critical piece of information that was withheld from the public by investigators for almost a year after L & L's abduction;

http://www.kwwl.com/story/22671327/2013/06/24/evansdale
<sniped - read more>

DCI searching for white SUV in connection with Lyric, Elizabeth

Posted: Jun 24, 2013

Authorities on Monday morning said they have three separate witnesses who say they saw a white, older-model, full-size SUV-type vehicle -- similar to a Chevy Suburban or a Ford Bronco -- parked on Arbutus Avenue on July 13.

Arbutus Avenue meets up with the bike trail near Meyers Lake, where Lyric and Elizabeth's bikes were found.

Two of the witnesses say they saw the white SUV parked between these two bike trail signs.

The other witness told police they saw the vehicle parked near the woods on the east side of the lake -- only a few hundred feet from where the bikes were found.

All of three of these individuals say they saw this SUV between the times of 11:30 a.m. and 12:30 p.m. on July 13, 2012.

Authorities hope this may jog people's memory and they may get more information with this tip now out in the public.

"There (are) just a lot of reports, a lot of information to read through," said Mike Roehrkasse with the Iowa Department of Criminal Investigation. "Now that there's a little bit of a lull, we are able to start pouring through those reports and make those connections."

"I think, and I hope, that this is kind of the beginning," he added.

All three of the witnesses describe the vehicle as a large and clunky white SUV.
One of the witnesses described the SUV as an old-style boxy suburban.

Two of these witnesses came forward with this information during canvassing. The other tip came in several months later because the person thought someone had already brought this up.

"The one that kind of got the ball rolling was actually several months later. They didn't know if it would be important and that's kind of what we want to stress to the public is any piece of information can be important," said Roehrkasse.

Authorities want people to remember that, no matter the size or significance of the tip, it may be that key piece to the investigation.

 

[tlcya]

I too am completely confused over why the information about the white SUV type vehicle was never released until just a few months ago. LE has stated they had this info (at least two of the witness accounts) from the get go.

Personally I don't know that it was intentionally withheld. I almost wonder if the two witness vehicle descriptions were buried in a file full of helpful info and tips and theories and suspicious vehicle reports that had been taken but those dots not connected til they started looking at the case again. I get the feeling investigators went back to the beginning as the case became cold. Reviewing witness interviews, etc. and found this common vehicle description from teh two witnesses only after the third more recent one came forward.

 

[otto]

We've known about the possibility that a white van was involved since a week after the girls vanished. Now it's a white SUV. It hasn't made any difference to the investigation since there is still no arrest. That is, telling the public about this has not resulted in the public solving the case.

 

[Foxfire]

I too am completely confused over why the information about the white SUV type vehicle was never released until just a few months ago. LE has stated they had this info (at least two of the witness accounts) from the get go.

Personally I don't know that it was intentionally withheld. I almost wonder if the two witness vehicle descriptions were buried in a file full of helpful info and tips and theories and suspicious vehicle reports that had been taken but those dots not connected til they started looking at the case again. I get the feeling investigators went back to the beginning as the case became cold. Reviewing witness interviews, etc. and found this common vehicle description from the two witnesses only after the third more recent one came forward.

tlcya, the article states that the third SUV tip came in several months later. It does not give a specific date or indicate how many months later. Imo, it would be reasonable to conclude that this info was purposely held back from the public by investigators on two separate occasions.

How would the third witness know whether someone else had brought the SUV sighting up if the first two sightings were never released to the public?

<sniped from article>
Two of these witnesses came forward with this information during canvassing. The other tip came in several months later because the person thought someone had already brought this up.

 

[Foxfire]

We've known about the possibility that a white van was involved since a week after the girls vanished. Now it's a white SUV. It hasn't made any difference to the investigation since there is still no arrest. That is, telling the public about this has not resulted in the public solving the case.

otto, the white van was ruled out by investigators early on in the investigation(08/01/2012).

The SUV sightings were not reported to the public until a year later. These two vehicles of interest sightings are unrelated.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/19174082/...hite-astro-van-in-missing-girls-investigation

UPDATE: Man driving white van is not a suspect in Evansdale abduction

Posted: Aug 01, 2012

 

[palaminodee]

OT:
some good news
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/1...ductor-killed-in-idaho-wilderness-police-say/

 

[otto]

otto, the white van was ruled out by investigators early on in the investigation(08/01/2012).

The SUV sightings were not reported to the public until a year later. These two vehicles of interest sightings are unrelated.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/19174082/...hite-astro-van-in-missing-girls-investigation

UPDATE: Man driving white van is not a suspect in Evansdale abduction

Posted: Aug 01, 2012

In the context of whether releasing information to the public will result in the public solving the case, we know that the answer is no. Informing the public that a white SUV was seen on Arbutus near Maiden Lane at noon on the day the children vanished has made no difference in solving the case.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

We discussed the possibility that a gun was used. It seems that everyone in Iowa owns a gun, so how would that information result in an arrest? Similarly, everyone owns electrical cords, so that information makes no difference. It's information that does not advance the investigation ... merely satisfies curiosity. At the same time, releasing that information eliminates an advantage that investigators have in keeping that information between them and the murderer.

I think that perps (like Frederiksen) who talk do so because they are in some way not mentally comfortable with what they did. I may be wrong but it's a theory.

Going with that theory, just for the sake of argument, the details that cause discomfort (aka triggers) differ from one person to the next. It is hard to predict exactly which details are likely to be troubling. Sometimes such triggers are little things that no one would ever guess could become a trigger. The more details that are released, the more likely it is that a detail the perp finds troubling to remember will become public knowledge.

And, as you say, there does not seem to me to be a legitimate point to releasing details about the crime scene or cause of death except to satisfy public curiosity.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I too am completely confused over why the information about the white SUV type vehicle was never released until just a few months ago. LE has stated they had this info (at least two of the witness accounts) from the get go.

Personally I don't know that it was intentionally withheld. I almost wonder if the two witness vehicle descriptions were buried in a file full of helpful info and tips and theories and suspicious vehicle reports that had been taken but those dots not connected til they started looking at the case again. I get the feeling investigators went back to the beginning as the case became cold. Reviewing witness interviews, etc. and found this common vehicle description from teh two witnesses only after the third more recent one came forward.

I do have a semi-educated guess as to why the white SUV information wasn't noticed sooner. Many (most) LE agencies use one of a handful of specialised database programs to sort tips and flag possible connections. These programs are way faster and easier to use than the old index card systems but they are not perfect.

If you look at the discussion that happened after the white SUV tip was released, you can see how many different ways people can interpret what seems like a simple category: older white SUV.

I think it is possible that the first two witnesses gave reports that were sufficiently different that they were not flagged by the computer system. Something about the third (later) report caused all three reports to be flagged as possibly linked. Additionally, with so many investigators working the case at the beginning, there's a good chance that those first two witnesses communicated with different investigators, so there was no chance of a single investigator remembering "whoa, Witness So-and-so's sighting was pretty close to this one..."

Just a theory.

 

[Foxfire]

In the context of whether releasing information to the public will result in the public solving the case, we know that the answer is no. Informing the public that a white SUV was seen on Arbutus near Maiden Lane at noon on the day the children vanished has made no difference in solving the case.

RE: In the context of whether releasing information to the public will result in the public solving the case, we know that the answer is no

Otto, the invaluable resource of the American public was utilized in this investigation by SDSD. See for yourself how cases end when there is proper media management and all available investigative resources are utilized;


San Diego County Sheriff's Department
Sheriff Bill Gore Statement - Amber Alert Case

"After an arrest attempt today, James Lee DiMaggio was shot and killed at approximately 4:20 p.m. (PST) at the north end of Morehead Lake, Idaho. Hannah Anderson was located with DiMaggio; appears well and will be transported to a local hospital for a complete medical evaluation.

To recap: This operation was initiated after a group of individuals observed a man and young girl, matching their description on Wednesday. DiMaggio's blue Nissan Versa was located Friday morning. Federal, state, and local resources were dispatched to Idaho, to locate the pair. A large-scale operation immediately ensued. Six representatives from the San Diego Sheriff's Department traveled to Idaho yesterday.

Three U. S. Marshals' Fugitive Task Force Officers, flying in a U. S. Marshal's plane, were the ones who located DiMaggio's tent early this morning from the air and then coordinated the insertion of FBI SWAT and Hostage Rescue Team (HRT).

I want to emphasize what a massive collaborative effort this was with federal, state, and local law enforcement representatives from the
San Diego Sheriff's Department, FBI, U. S. Marshals Service,
Ada County, Idaho Sheriff's Department, Valley County, Idaho Sheriff's Department, Idaho State Police, and Customs and Border Protection.

We are looking forward to reuniting Hannah with her family as soon as possible.

The response and help of the media was also critical in getting information to the public, which ultimately led to DiMaggio's location and the recovery of Hannah."

https://www.facebook.com/sdsheriff

 

[eileenhawkeye]

RE: In the context of whether releasing information to the public will result in the public solving the case, we know that the answer is no

Otto, the invaluable resource of the American public was utilized in this investigation by SDSD. See for yourself how cases end when there is proper media management and all available investigative resources are utilized;


San Diego County Sheriff's Department
Sheriff Bill Gore Statement - Amber Alert Case

"After an arrest attempt today, James Lee DiMaggio was shot and killed at approximately 4:20 p.m. (PST) at the north end of Morehead Lake, Idaho. Hannah Anderson was located with DiMaggio; appears well and will be transported to a local hospital for a complete medical evaluation.

To recap: This operation was initiated after a group of individuals observed a man and young girl, matching their description on Wednesday. DiMaggio's blue Nissan Versa was located Friday morning. Federal, state, and local resources were dispatched to Idaho, to locate the pair. A large-scale operation immediately ensued. Six representatives from the San Diego Sheriff's Department traveled to Idaho yesterday.

Three U. S. Marshals' Fugitive Task Force Officers, flying in a U. S. Marshal's plane, were the ones who located DiMaggio's tent early this morning from the air and then coordinated the insertion of FBI SWAT and Hostage Rescue Team (HRT).

I want to emphasize what a massive collaborative effort this was with federal, state, and local law enforcement representatives from the
San Diego Sheriff's Department, FBI, U. S. Marshals Service,
Ada County, Idaho Sheriff's Department, Valley County, Idaho Sheriff's Department, Idaho State Police, and Customs and Border Protection.

We are looking forward to reuniting Hannah with her family as soon as possible.

The response and help of the media was also critical in getting information to the public, which ultimately led to DiMaggio's location and the recovery of Hannah."

https://www.facebook.com/sdsheriff

But in Hannah's case, they knew who she was with. They knew what car he was driving. It's not comparable to an unsolved murder case.

 

[Foxfire]

But in Hannah's case, they knew who she was with. They knew what car he was driving. It's not comparable to an unsolved murder case.

<sniped & BBM from SD Sheriff Bill Gore's Statement>
The response and help of the media was also critical in getting information to the public, which ultimately led to DiMaggio's location and the recovery of Hannah."

https://www.facebook.com/sdsheriff

eileenhawkeye, if you can't locate the perp and victim, it is considered a kidnapping/missing person case. LE had no idea where they were, or that they were over 1,000 miles away, camping deep in the wilderness of another state. It does no good to solve a case if you can't locate them..

The American public via ms media is the only resource available to investigators that will overcome jurisdictional linkage blindness. As shown in Hanna's abduction and successful rescue...

 

[SapphireSteel]

<sniped & BBM from SD Sheriff Bill Gore's Statement>
The response and help of the media was also critical in getting information to the public, which ultimately led to DiMaggio's location and the recovery of Hannah."

https://www.facebook.com/sdsheriff

eileenhawkeye, if you can't locate the perp and victim, it is considered a kidnapping/missing person case. LE had no idea where they were, or that they were over 1,000 miles away, camping deep in the wilderness of another state. It does no good to solve a case if you can't locate them..

The American public via ms media is the only resource available to investigators that will overcome jurisdictional linkage blindness. As shown in Hanna's abduction and successful rescue...

Improved communication between departments would do that.

Isn't that what VICAP's all about?

Unfortunately asking for public help means you get bombarded with information.

It takes man hours to sift through. Looking for important information through the public is like looking through a needle in a haystack.

Yes, the needle is there, but finding it may take a long, long time.

In cases where there is a suspect and/or an undercover investigation, public information is not required and will just add to the workload.

:twocents:

 

[Foxfire]

Improved communication between departments would do that.

Isn't that what VICAP's all about?

Unfortunately asking for public help means you get bombarded with information.

It takes man hours to sift through. Looking for important information through the public is like looking through a needle in a haystack.

Yes, the needle is there, but finding it may take a long, long time.

In cases where there is a suspect and/or an undercover investigation, public information is not required and will just add to the workload.

:twocents:

RE: Improved communication between departments would do that

SapphireSteel, I gather from your comments that you feel that the public is more of a detriment to investigators, rather than the invaluable resource/tool that it is. Information and tips from the public is not a bad thing.

Obviously in high profile cases, investigators are bombarded with tips. Technology & other resources are available via FBI to manage and prioritize the public tips/info.
_____________________

SapphireSteel, imo, there was a special missing person case, other significant circumstance, or incident that recruited each of us into the websleuths family. Mine was very similar to the Hannah Anderson abduction, except with a very tragic ending. The abduction was in 2008, and the victim, along with her dog, was held hostage three counties away, sixty miles from the abduction site.

She was tortured, chained in a van, and raped for four days, hidden deep in the north GA mountain wilderness, very near to my home..
The antiquated misinformation and silence strategy was employed by the lead investigative agencies in her high profile case. The public was led to believe that she & her dog were only lost while hiking.

Although she courageously fought her captor with mind, body, and spirit, buying time for a rescue. She met her tragic fate on the fourth day of captivity.
I witnessed them hidden in the woods next to my home on the evening of the third day...

"Silence & misinformation is the predator's most lethal weapon"...

_______________________

Linkage Blindness
Steven Egger

Law enforcement investigators sometimes do not see or are prevented from seeing beyond their own jurisdictional responsibilities. The officer's responsibility usually stops at the boundary of the jurisdiction except when hot pursuit is necessary.

A police department's accountability and responsiveness to its jurisdictional clients can create a sense of isolation from the outside world. The term linkage blindness was coined in 1984 to denote an underlying problem with law enforcement serial murder investigations and some other crimes as well.

Intergovernmental conflict between law enforcement agencies is unfortunately a common occurrence. The basis of these conflicts is a real or perceived violation of an agency's boundaries or geographical jurisdiction, or of the specific responsibilities of an agency to enforce specific laws. Agencies large and small continually practice boundary maintenance to protect their jurisdictions from intruder agencies moving onto their turf.

http://knowledge.sagepub.com/view/violentcrime/n259.xml

BOOK: THE KILLERS AMONG US: Examination of Serial Murder and Its Investigation
http://gulfcoastwebhost.com/Egger files/Egger/book2nd.htm

 

[Squeeze]

We've known about the possibility that a white van was involved since a week after the girls vanished. Now it's a white SUV. It hasn't made any difference to the investigation since there is still no arrest. That is, telling the public about this has not resulted in the public solving the case.

I'm actually quite blown away by this blanket statement. There is no way that we would know this until the case has been solved. I've said this so many times before, we dont know all of the pieces to this puzzle. There are huge pieces missing, some that are known only to LE and some that haven't been discovered yet, known only to the perp, or one or two individuals who don't KNOW they hold a piece of the puzzle. Because of this, they MUST ask for the public's help. If the white SUV triggers someone's memory, or causes a potential witness to realize that they might know of someone who has access to white SUV, then the purpose has been served.

The end of this story has but been written yet.

The lack of arrest does but indicate a lack of progress, just a lack - so far - of a conclusion.

And although technology has come a long way, it hasn't reached the point of replacing a human brain. We can't simply plug the information into a giant database and expect an answer to be spit out. If two investigators took tips separately of the white SUV sightings, then it took human communication and "gut feelings" to determine that there could be a link. Maybe that's why it took so long to release. Lack of communication among investigators.

I still think when the truth comes out and a arrest is made, whether it's tomorrow or five years from now, we will all be shocked by how much LE knew but didn't share. And IMO, how low tech the crime and and investigation turns out to be. The key is going to a tiny clue that came from the public. I'm sure if it.

 

[Squeeze]

RE: Improved communication between departments would do that

SapphireSteel, I gather from your comments that you feel that the public is more of a detriment to investigators, rather than the invaluable resource/tool that it is. Information and tips from the public is not a bad thing.

Obviously in high profile cases, investigators are bombarded with tips. Technology & other resources are available via FBI to manage and prioritize the public tips/info.
_____________________

SapphireSteel, imo, there was a special missing person case, other significant circumstance, or incident that recruited each of us into the websleuths family. Mine was very similar to the Hannah Anderson abduction, except with a very tragic ending. The abduction was in 2008, and the victim, along with her dog, was held hostage three counties away, sixty miles from the abduction site.

She was tortured, chained in a van, and raped for four days, hidden deep in the north GA mountain wilderness, very near to my home..
The antiquated misinformation and silence strategy was employed by the lead investigative agencies in her high profile case. The public was led to believe that she & her dog were only lost while hiking.

Although she courageously fought her captor with mind, body, and spirit, buying time for a rescue. She met her tragic fate on the fourth day of captivity.
I witnessed them hidden in the woods next to my home on the evening of the third day...

"Silence & misinformation is the predator's most lethal weapon"...

_______________________

Linkage Blindness
Steven Egger

Law enforcement investigators sometimes do not see or are prevented from seeing beyond their own jurisdictional responsibilities. The officer's responsibility usually stops at the boundary of the jurisdiction except when hot pursuit is necessary.

A police department's accountability and responsiveness to its jurisdictional clients can create a sense of isolation from the outside world. The term linkage blindness was coined in 1984 to denote an underlying problem with law enforcement serial murder investigations and some other crimes as well.

Intergovernmental conflict between law enforcement agencies is unfortunately a common occurrence. The basis of these conflicts is a real or perceived violation of an agency's boundaries or geographical jurisdiction, or of the specific responsibilities of an agency to enforce specific laws. Agencies large and small continually practice boundary maintenance to protect their jurisdictions from intruder agencies moving onto their turf.

http://knowledge.sagepub.com/view/violentcrime/n259.xml

BOOK: THE KILLERS AMONG US: Examination of Serial Murder and Its Investigation
http://gulfcoastwebhost.com/Egger files/Egger/book2nd.htm

Ok Foxfire, so are you saying that helped solve this crime? Or did you not realize what you saw until after the fact?

 

[Foxfire]

Ok Foxfire, so are you saying that helped solve this crime? Or did you not realize what you saw until after the fact?

Squeeze, I wasn't aware that she had been abducted, until the next afternoon. Thought she was only lost on Blood Mountain. This is what all ms media was reporting. The local sheriff deputies & game wardens in this area were waving at him in passing, with Meredith Hope Emerson chained in the van.
Her roommate who worked at CNN Center, found out that she had been abducted and provided CNN with a POI and vehicle description later on that evening.
The perp; a serial killer was arrested the next day due to a 911 call by an aware citizen..

911 call leading to the arrest of the Georgia Hiker murderer - YouTube

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/after-5-years-notorious-crime-still-haunts/nTyq3/

After 5 years, notorious crime still haunts
Witness, authorities left asking, 'What if?'

 

[SapphireSteel]

RE: Improved communication between departments would do that

SapphireSteel, I gather from your comments that you feel that the public is more of a detriment to investigators, rather than the invaluable resource/tool that it is. Information and tips from the public is not a bad thing.

Please, don't put words in my mouth.

Some investigations require repeated appeals to the public, some do not.

Neither you nor I have any way of knowing what sort of investigation is being run, so it follows we have no right to criticise it.

If they are running and undercover op, how would The Public help in that?

Or, if they are training an accomplice to secretly tape conversations with the perp....how would the public help with that?

:waitasec:

I find it kind of ironic that you keep referencing "linkage blindness" while displaying extreme tunnel vision yourself (Klunder linkage blindness)....no offence.

 

[carbuff]

Clearly lots of publicity is appropriate for many cases. It does not follow that it's the most appropriate approach in all cases.

 

[superbee]

I'm wondering if the white SUV being discussed could be a white pickup truck with a white canopy attached?

That is a more versatile vehicle, one can easily detach the canopy, my husband used to use 4 clamps. Then you have a pickup truck with fully exposed box, and the canopy sitting in the yard or in a building. The removal of the canopy changes the appearance of the vehicle alot.

So last July who had a white pickup truck and who also had a white canopy on their truck? Maybe someone always had a canopy on their white truck, but suddenly it was removed? Lately, looking at many SUV's and trucks with canopies attached, I think they could be similar to a witness in passing.