IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #5

[Ollipop]

May be this clearing is for people to load their boats in to the lake by coming this side?



Definitely odd. You can tell a lot about these energy drinks. (May be even linked to roadside workers if they come this way and they drink a similar type of drink). Mostly teenagers/young adults use these.
I think there were 3 guys in a group who scrounged the area and left it just before you went in that day or even by investigators?

It would be difficult to get a boat back here by backing a trailer down that path. It was hard to spot, and descended while turning about 75°. Then, the lake is so shallow at the edge and slopes so gradually. I felt like if I wouldn't sink in the mud I could walk out almost to the jetty from here. The one pic shows how far the water has receded away from the shore here compared to other slightly steeper spots. This back corner is also where floating trash and debris tend to accumulate.

The energy drinks were a mystery. My guess was that they'd been placed by three separate ppl, or maybe rounded up and thrown together by searchers. But I dunno...why leave em? 3 teens duckin back here to catch a buzz, maybe? Or some guy hanging out by his white van, trying to stay alert? I know, I'm being paranoid; but the admin from WS who called me this morning reminded me that in the Casey Anthony case, a tipster had noticed something that seemed obvious, called it in, then noticed months later it hadn't been moved, so he checked it out and found a skull. I decided it'd eat at me if I didn't call this stuff in, even though I doubt it has bearing on the case at all.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I completely agree that nicotine and meth cannot be compared. I smoke. I have never stolen things from others to feed my habit. I've never gotten violent under the influence of a cigarette or made poor choices because I was high on nicotine. I, too, quit when I was pregnant. Meth addicts Go to jail, lose their kids, and lose jobs over their addictions. I currently have a MS in marital and family counseling and let me tell you...meth rips families apart! I have never once experienced relationships as turbulent as With those enmeshed in meth. It is horrible! These addicts will risk it all for their next high.

Respectfully, looking at the recovery rate for tobacco and other drugs (including meth), they are all about the same.

I think if people had only discovered that chewing or smoking these dried leaves gave you a little hit of pleasure 30 years ago, tobacco would be illegal and addicts would be going to jail, stealing, breaking up their families, etc, over it.

Addiction is addiction.

 

[Ollipop]

Mostly I wanted to demonstrate, from where those bikes were found in that enclosed area, how tedious it would be to get to the water's edge compared to just a few yards to the west where access is so easy. If you wanted to swim or just check out the lake close up, you wouldn't stop in that fenced area. The bikes could have been tossed over the fence from the woods, but for anyone to get the bikes there otherwise - besides the girls - they'd be visible for quite a bit from either direction until they reached that location. I always assumed the purse/bag with the phone in it was found where I stood in the woods right up against the fence, but clearly we don't know with precision where any of the objects were found.

Also, I don't think its been reported that the gate was left open or closed, or how exactly the dogs would have reached the woods or the water's edge if they started at the bikes.

 

[GrainneDhu]

It was local LE who drained the lake.

The FBI then stepped in with the superior equipment which required the level be left a certain depth to work properly, and draining was halted.

Whatever evidence was then developed by the FBI (from the lake or elsewhere), led the FBI to declare they believe the girls are alive. It is not surprising local LE are now able to take time away if the FBI have taken over IMO, especially if it is now an interstate operation.

Plus, the FBI personnel who did the search of the lake after it was drained would never have been part of the investigation otherwise.

So it didn't divert one iota of FBI personnel away from the investigation.

 

[superbee]

Good question about the watch. I don't remember it being mentioned. Just out of curiosity, are you leaning more towards totally random abduction or an abductor who may have been familiar with the girls on some level?

I am leaning towards an abductor who is at least familiar with the area. Even more so after viewing Ollipops photos. How would a complete stranger to the area even know what the area around the lake was like, never mind overpower 2 young girls and take them away without being seen? How would the stranger know where to park the getaway vehicle?

I think it is someone who knows at least one of the girls on some level, especially the older girl. I suspect she was the intended target. I am wondering if the older girl took regular bike rides and where did she go? Did she ever ride alone or always with other children? Maybe someone had been stalking her, had befriended her, and then took the opportunity to overpower the girls and take them away? There may be suspicions who this person could be and leads to the belief the girls are alive. I pray they are!

 

[hytime]

thank you lollipop for the photos. They really put it into perspective how secluded some of the trail is and it sure seems like it would have to be someone local to know that trail enough to use that secluded area to watch and or wait to grab those children. My opinion only.

 

[Ollipop]

Respectfully, looking at the recovery rate for tobacco and other drugs (including meth), they are all about the same.

I think if people had only discovered that chewing or smoking these dried leaves gave you a little hit of pleasure 30 years ago, tobacco would be illegal and addicts would be going to jail, stealing, breaking up their families, etc, over it.

Addiction is addiction.

I agree. We've all seen the smoker who puts the cigarette up to a hole in their trachea, knowing full well they are slowly killing themselves. Likewise, meth rots people from the inside out, obviously much quicker.

I think the difference is in what people will do to get the next hit. For smokers, a breakdown includes finding a smoke left behind, or going to the store after scraping together $5-$6 bucks. That pack can last you a day - half a day for some.

Nobody leaves a meth hit laying around for someone else to find, and going to get another requires entering a shady world of users/dealers and all the criminal elements and possibilities therein. There are no convenience stores for meth. If you don't have the $25 or so for a gram, you can reach new lows, as we see daily. If meth were legal, it would still rot people, but they may not need to enter the criminal world to get it (altho some surely would). Same with cigs - if they weren't legal, you can bet people'd get depraved to get a pack.

 

[GrainneDhu]

When an adult other than the parent enrolls a child in a public school in my state, there has to be a notarized statement from the parent or a court order. Copy of which has to be placed in the child's permanent record.

Does that prevent, say, a baby sitter from picking the kids up at school? It seems to me like that would be a fairly common arrangement and if allowed, an easy way to have an informal caregiver do school pick ups.

It would be easy enough for a noncustodial parent to keep enrolling the child in school if there were some way for a designated person other than the legal guardian to pick up the child from school.

In Iowa, it's apparently not a big deal because I really do know a lot of people who have taken in their grandchildren or nieces/nephews or whatever without any court decree being involved.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Pic 5: I'm sure its been thoroughly investigated, so I'm not at all suspicious. But I'd sure like to know the story behind this place. Windowless house or houseless garage? I dunno.

SBM

Or Baba Yaga's resting site?

(sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[GrainneDhu]

I agree. We've all seen the smoker who puts the cigarette up to a hole in their trachea, knowing full well they are slowly killing themselves. Likewise, meth rots people from the inside out, obviously much quicker.

I think the difference is in what people will do to get the next hit. For smokers, a breakdown includes finding a smoke left behind, or going to the store after scraping together $5-$6 bucks. That pack can last you a day - half a day for some.

Nobody leaves a meth hit laying around for someone else to find, and going to get another requires entering a shady world of users/dealers and all the criminal elements and possibilities therein. There are no convenience stores for meth. If you don't have the $25 or so for a gram, you can reach new lows, as we see daily. If meth were legal, it would still rot people, but they may not need to enter the criminal world to get it (altho some surely would). Same with cigs - if they weren't legal, you can bet people'd get depraved to get a pack.

This lifelong Iowa girl was shocked but not surprised when I read about shops in poor areas of some cities that sell individual cigarettes for 50 cents apiece.

I know that after my husband and I became disabled, we were very, very poor (still are, in fact). And yet, he could not cut down or quit his 4 pack a day habit, even though his own disability is directly related to smoking. We ate a lot of ramen, we went hungry a lot to support his habit. Fortunately, we live close enough to the Mesquaki Settlement to buy cheap cigarettes there.

When we married, I vowed to love him through sickness and health, so I figured that was sickness. I know some people would call me an enabler and maybe I am.

I'm grateful he finally found something that was successful in helping him quit.

If cigarettes went up to $25 per cigarette ($500/pack) I am absolutely convinced that otherwise law abiding people would be driven to stealing, prostitution, etc, in order to buy them.

How does this relate to this case? It doesn't surprise me to read that both DC and MC have problems with relapses. That's to be expected when people try to quit. It doesn't automatically mean one or both of them is guilty of disappearing Elizabeth and Lyric.

 

[Thinkzerz]

Pic 1: 3 empty cans of energy drink left in that clearing. Seemed odd that A) anyone would need three giant cans of energy drink all in the same spot, B) if this area were scoured, those would be left behind, C) someone would come by later and linger long enough to drink three of these.

Pic 2: From the south edge of the clearing, looking south at the trail.

Pic 3: From fence edge, looking west towards the jetty. You can see that getting to this spot from the jetty would be dicey if the lake were full. Although not deep, it would be difficult to do without getting wet/muddy.

Pic 4: Right up on the fence, facing south-southwest onto the trail.

Pic 5: From the very southeastern corner of the lake's shore, looking across to the parking area/playground.

I am glad you saw the cans because what if? Now LE knows about them if they didn't before and DNA can and most likely will be tested on them. As long as the perp isn't on here knowing they were found and decides to go remove them? If you end up back there please see if the cans are gone or not. Thank you for the pictures and your time to do this.

 

[GrainneDhu]

It looks like DC may have re-thought his decision to stop talking to LE:

...Tammy Brousseau, an aunt of the girls, said Friday that the pair had rethought that decision. "Dan felt attacked, but after getting some rest, his mind is clear, and he's now cooperating with everyone," Brousseau said.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/163305976.html?refer=y

I imagine his adrenaline has probably been pumping constantly and that knocks IQ points off of anyone.

 

[Tucarra]

Pic 1: Past the grassy area, looking west.

Pic 2: As the trail turns north to Arbutus, looking west.

Pic 3: From same location as last, looking north. Kids are 3/4 way to Arbutus (and likely out of focus as I'm yelling for them to approach the intersection with caution).

Pic 4: From Arbutus, facing southwest past the houseless garage.

Pic 5: I'm sure its been thoroughly investigated, so I'm not at all suspicious. But I'd sure like to know the story behind this place. Windowless house or houseless garage? I dunno.

Reasonable guess on Pic 5 would be a maintenance shed....lawnmowers, brush clearing equipment, what have you....

 

[TxLady2]

I've heard that and I used to think it was true.

Then my husband, a tobacco addict for a long time, said it wasn't true. He started smoking at 15 when his father told him that cigarettes would make him lose weight (since my husband topped out at 5 foot, even five extra pounds looks like a lot on him).

Yeah, we're so old that we both grew up in the time when it didn't raise an eyebrow for a parent to start their own child smoking.

My husband quit smoking about 5 years ago, so that makes, um, er (don't have enough fingers and toes for this, darn) close to 50 years of smoking. Including 12 years of marriage to me.

He said it was always clear to him that he loved me far more than he loved cigarettes. He was afraid of trying to quit because he'd tried before and turned into an ogre each time.

When Chantrix came out, he knew that was his chance and he took it.

He said that I didn't understand that addiction is like having something constantly pushing at you, constantly pushing you to light up again (in his case).

It had nothing to do with enjoying smoking because he'd stopped enjoying it many years ago. It was about avoiding the feelings that happened when he tried to quit.

The plural of anecdote is not "data," I understand this. But it makes more sense to me than saying the addict loves the substance more than they love another human.

Maybe I'm a sucker or too optimistic. I dunno. But I think my husband is right about himself and I hope he's right about most other addicts.

No offense but addiction to tobacco is nothing like addiction to drugs. No comparison. Drug addicts will do anything to get and use their drugs, even killing their own family. I've never known a smoker to kill anyone over cigarettes. Yes, there are withdrawal symptoms when a long-time smoker tries to quit but nothing like hard drug addicts go through when they can't get the drugs they're addicted to.
To an addict, drugs take over their lives, they ARE their lives. And yes... most of them love the drugs more than they love any other human being.

 

[hollyblue]

Respectfully, looking at the recovery rate for tobacco and other drugs (including meth), they are all about the same.

I think if people had only discovered that chewing or smoking these dried leaves gave you a little hit of pleasure 30 years ago, tobacco would be illegal and addicts would be going to jail, stealing, breaking up their families, etc, over it.

Addiction is addiction.

Tobacco is my nemesis...big time. I ran out of cigarettes last night around 11 and got pizzed off because 1. of it's grips on me and 2. because I didn't want to go out at that hour (city). In that situation, I always tell myself "it's not to kill me to quit or not to have one", but believe me every few minutes I was thinking about one. Woke up at five, had one cup of coffee and made the trip this morning. I've said time and again from the perspective that a little 4" tube of leaves has so much control over my being, but I remain. With me anyway, I feel it is more psychological than a physical addiction. I just haven't sat myself down to truly focusing on the problem of changing my behaviors. I can certainly relate to any addicts, but justify it with the excuse it doesn't cause running people over, violence, nor affect my decision making. At almost $70 a carton, I could take a global trip every year!!! I was a very athletic tween when the warnings started appearing on TV. My uncle quit and that side of the family would have slapped me silly if they ever caught me with one. My father smoked before passing away shortly there after, but wouldn't of heard of it for his little "olympian". His death was traumatic for me and the hippy movement was evolving, so pot and smoking became a norm. The uncle, he died 20 years later big as a house from heart problems....and it just became another justification for me. Sorry....I'm rambling. :banghead:

 

[TxLady2]

He's a Chief Deputy, not the commanding officer of the investigation.

My guess is that he had plans for the weekend and was not required to give them up.

For people who work stressful jobs, the ability to walk away and de-stress is important or they don't last in the job for long.

Being spokesperson is not a critical job. Having someone else do it for a few days is not a big deal and the person chosen has already been representing the FBI to the media. So it's not like they didn't have anyone on hand who already had experience both in the job and with the specific investigation.

I hope Chief Deputy Abben has a nice weekend.

Sadly, tomorrow the highs are predicted to be over 100 F!!! I know I have absolutely no intention of venturing outside tomorrow.

Where I come from, the Chief Deputy IS the commanding officer of the investigation. He answers only to the sheriff himself. Could be different there, but chief deputy means just that... the chief, the one in charge, the head honcho. He calls the shots.

 

[Patty G]

The Weekend Today Show is covering Elizabeth and Lyric. Although nothing new, but at least they are still getting media coverage.

 

[BrownRice]

It seems like the WS smoking rate is higher than the national average. Wonder what that means. :floor laugh:

I used to smoke and loved it. If I could just smoke once in awhile I would. But I can't.

 

[TxLady2]

I think it depends upon the drug and the high. Nicotine is highly addictive but you can legally operate machinery and drive a vehicle after and while smoking vs. other drugs. People don't steal, kill, resort to prostitution etc...for cigarettes (obviously they are legal so the criminal elements seen with other drugs aren't relevant but still). I think there is a huge difference between a drug addiction and a smoking habit. A smoker is able to function and contribute to society unlike a Meth addict. Bottom-line I'd let a smoker babysit but not a drug addict.

A study in Japan showed that 20% of recovering meth addicts develop schizophrenic like symptom for upwards of 6 months and this condition is often treatment resistant. I think we are talking about 2 completely different animals and totally different addictions.

We also have to consider that a high percentage of addicts suffer from mental illness so their brains aren't functioning properly before they start using.

I'm not downplaying the difficulty smokers face when quitting. I've been there. But the highs associated with drug use are completely different as are the withdrawals.

Exactly.... and most companies will still hire a smoker but not a drug addict. Comparing the smoking habit with drug addictions is ridiculous. Yes, it's difficult to quit smoking but many people have quit cold turkey and done great. I could give up smoking before I could give up coffee. That is just how MY brain works.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Tobacco is my nemesis...big time. I ran out of cigarettes last night around 11 and got pizzed off because 1. of it's grips on me and 2. because I didn't want to go out at that hour (city). In that situation, I always tell myself "it's not to kill me to quit or not to have one", but believe me every few minutes I was thinking about one. Woke up at five, had one cup of coffee and made the trip this morning. I've said time and again from the perspective that a little 4" tube of leaves has so much control over my being, but I remain. With me anyway, I feel it is more psychological than a physical addiction. I just haven't sat myself down to truly focusing on the problem of changing my behaviors. I can certainly relate to any addicts, but justify it with the excuse it doesn't cause running people over, violence, nor affect my decision making. At almost $70 a carton, I could take a global trip every year!!! I was a very athletic tween when the warnings started appearing on TV. My uncle quit and that side of the family would have slapped me silly if they ever caught me with one. My father smoked before passing away shortly there after, but wouldn't of heard of it for his little "olympian". His death was traumatic for me and the hippy movement was evolving, so pot and smoking became a norm. The uncle, he died 20 years later big as a house from heart problems....and it just became another justification for me. Sorry....I'm rambling. :banghead:

BBM

Almost $70 a carton???!!!!!!!!

When my husband quit, it was in part because getting cigarettes from the Mesquaki Settlement was getting too expensive at $11/carton.

I am so sorry cigarettes got you. I saw how my husband really wrestled with it (and still does to some extent). I almost feel guilty because I started smoking when I was 16 and quit cold turkey when I was 24 with no trouble at all. I just didn't want to smoke any more.

Of course, that wasn't my main addiction (food) and I have never gotten that addiction under control.

Even though people say cigarettes don't affect their decision making, in a sense, I think they do. My husband chose to have both of us go hungry at times so that he could smoke, even though I know he loves me and would give his life for me.

Other people let their craving for cigarettes lead them to take risks they would not ordinarily take (as you said above you were tempted to do last night).

And the mood swings, increased stress, inability to focus, etc, that happen to many smokers when cigarettes are withheld for too long are potentially able to influence decision making ability.

I think it's only to be expected that DC and MC apparently have problems staying sober. And, sadly, it would not surprise me if one or both of them relapses in the stress of what is going on.

If my husband felt a push all the time to smoke the next cigarette (many times while he was still smoking a cigarette!), then what they are feeling must by like having an elephant shoving against their backs.