IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #8

[Mimiof8]

TES has to be approached by the family for them to come.

They have!!!!!!!

Sorry I'm standing up for LE here. Please do some msm reading before you throw out statements like that. The searches are alive and well and still ongoing.


:what:

I'm unclear how you know this I was under the impression you were from Australia. Maybe I have you confused with someone else, idk. I've only seen in msm mention of two searches plus the whole lake thing.

I'm not local either but I don't think anyone is ditching LE. Just questioning why

 

[katydid23]

I agree somewhat, and have considered it at length. My only issue, with the Carpenters and Lake Ave, is that they seem to imply that the girls are there frequently, and turning around there. It's hard for me to explain further than I have, but it is just stands out as odd that, over a mile from home, in a spot where mom and gramma say the girls had never ride/ridden to, on a street that has nothing of obvious interest but is so close (yet out of the way to/from) to a trail around a lake, a playground, a skatepark, etc, that these people seem to feel like they "know" Elizabeth.

I'm wondering if there is something of interest on that street that wouldn't be obvious to me and my kids of roughly the same age. A friend? A relative? We're a block away frequently, yet have NEVER walked or ridden on Lake. I had to drive over there to even confirm the name of the street, and I can almost see it from my house, lol.

Now, seeing the girls frequently on roads with natural turnarounds, points of interest, etc, closer to their home would not surprise me. Like the entire area of parking on Lafayette, or Sipple, Morrell, or Wema Avenues. Maybe the old elementary school with its playground just off the trail, or the skatepark, or somewhere off River Forest, etc. But to get this (I'm down by the lake, fyi) far away, and to choose that one out-of-the-way spot, with regularity, is odd to me.

I got the feeling that underground reports were that there is a friend or family member that lives at the end of Lake Rd. Anyone know?

 

[Sailorsgirl]

BBM [ Bolded by Me]

As to the bolded portion above, I agree with you. The bikes being there lead me to two conclusions.

1. It was a local or locals who carried this out. I don't think someone passing through would know about the area or bother to stage the bikes there.

2. It was possibly someone known or connected to the victims, otherwise there would be no reason to try and make it look like the girls went into the lake.

OR 3. It tells me the girls were right there on the path when they were abducted or lured away.

I did read someone's post here that could make sense ... someone found the bikes elsewhere and saw the purse; rode to the path and realized there was nothing of value in the purse and tossed it. This does sound like something kids would do ... if that's the case, I think it wouldn't be too long before someone comes forward (kids aren't good at keeping secrets). Also, if that's the case, there's so much more to consider.

Also, I'm not convinced this wasn't someone the girls knew. Maybe they weren't drug associates, but just someone one or both of the girls came into contact with and would trust ... a neighbor, friend's parent, fellow church member, etc.

 

[nervous_nellie]

It is kind of hard to believe that the girls would never go further than a block or two. On a mountain bike? You can go a block in seconds. So the girls had to go further than a block or two or the bike rides would be less than a minute long.

i agree about them "never"going more than a block or two... who would bother riding a bike for one block? unless its a really long block ...lol.. i think its just to reinforce the idea that they were somewhat supervised and not just running loose ... and i do believe that they probably were. i was supervised too and i know that i could go all over the place in the span of an hour and my folks were none the wiser and felt that they were supervising me...lol...

 

[Ollipop]

Ollipop, I have a question too. I know you have already talked about this so I apologize for asking again but could the bikes have been ridden through the wooded area that starts right there in the curve of the road on S. Evans to access the bike trail or is there too much undergrowth? If the bikes could not have been ridden, could the girls have pushed their bikes through that wooded area? I mean from S. Evans, through the wooded area, to the bike trail. Thanks! I'll try to go back and find your photos again but I'm not very good at finding things.

I'd thought the same, especially after discovering the whole Melody Lane thing. That it is on the Bing map, and seems to be a clear road, is still fascinating to me. I hope my pics demonstrate why.

The undergrowth on that path/lane is not so much that you couldn't ride down in there, but, honestly, it didn't look inviting to even walk thru, much less ride, until we got several yards in and it began to clear a bit. The real problem is that it simply dead-ends. It doesn't really go all the way to the lake, like to put a boat in, and it doesn't really go all the way to the trail. I took pics of the trail from there, and the fence keeps you away. If you followed that path back hoping to get on the trail, you'd be disappointed and forced to turn back or "bushwhack" through some serious undergrowth and woods to the east, along the fence until it ended and you could step out onto the trail. It would be difficult to walk from that path to the trail, especially if you had a bike. No way could you ride around the fence. Even tossing two bikes over the fence there would be difficult, I would think. The fence is like 8 ft tall.

 

[FrayedKnot]

The game you are late to is in accusing the family of being uncooperative.

Well, your claim that the family is not cooperating is untrue. There were times when LE felt they were not getting full cooperation, but that is not the current condition. The reasons for them not cooperating - and btw that is how LE worded it, not the family - seem somewhat justified. If my daughter was missing, but I was being held in a room repeatedly being yelled at and accused of killing my daughter for 8+ hours, yeah, I think I might begin to get "uncooperative." And yes, if I'd told LE that I know my daughter and she wouldn't jump in a lake but if she did she could swim out of it, and that I'd talked to people at the lake who never saw anyone swimming there, who never saw the water disturbed, and I knew my daughter left the house happy and didn't have intentions to run away with her cousin, but then LE continued to ignore my thoughts and kept telling me that my daughter was probably in the lake, or wandering the woods miles from where her bike was found, etc, I can see where I might get frustrated with LE, and they might label me as "uncooperative."

And I totally believe that if someone/thing you loved was missing, that you would see LE as a help and as a savior. But, as I've said, Misty and Dan don't hold the same view of LE as you do. You've not walked a mile in their shoes, you've not experienced the same sides of LE as they have. What YOU would do, how YOU would react, is completely irrelevant. I would bet that as of July 12th, they viewed LE as an enemy, right or wrong. And I know for a fact that they have been viewed, by LE and by complete strangers, as people who clearly must have had some hand in this disappearance.

Remember, the focus is the CHILDREN, not THEM.

I'm not trying to argue with you. We are both seeking the same result. But I live in this town, I know the family, I know many of their friends. I can tell you that the people who know them are not "shocked" at their reactions. Are they more selfish than you are? Probably. Are they showing more selfishness since their daughters' disappearance than they did before it? No.

To pin blame on the family, because one of them doesn't seem as sad as you think she should, or because they didn't respond to LE the same way you think you would, is wrong on many levels, IMO.

Do I think that Dan and Misty's criminal past has bearing? Absolutely. Do I think they know where their children are? Absolutely not. Would I handle things the same way they are? Maybe, maybe not.

Excellent post. Thanks button wasn't enough!

 

[CHERIE.T]

But did she tweet a picture of herself, smiling and laughing, at a bar, right after a vigil for her child?

BUT BUT BUT
I was told

one is not suppose to say that here. :blushing:

 

[Ollipop]

This comment brought back memories of my childhood I had not yet considered. My best friend and I were always on these kind of missions. We we on the hunt for candy usually, or something sweet. In fact, we used to ask the neighbors if they had any odd jobs we could do to earn some money. Obviously that was probably not the smartest thing to do.

My question for the locals is, does the lake area have a concession stand or is there a corner store/convenience store in close proximity?

No, no businesses at all on the lake. The closest convenience store is the Casey's that is on River Forest. The trail has an exit onto Gilbert that is west of the parking area. From that spot, you can almost see Casey's. To get from the trail at Gilbert (it intersects there at about Jones Rd), would take literally 30-40 seconds on a bike. One block west, half block north, and you could cut that corner because its all parking lot.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I got the feeling that underground reports were that there is a friend or family member that lives at the end of Lake Rd. Anyone know?

There has been speculation to that effect in earlier posts on this thread, but I think much of this is FB gossip/rumor. IMO

 

[superbee]

I could be wrong but I dont think she's a cook look back at that dental board document.

I'd like to, but I can't. Does anyone else have trouble looking at the dental board document? When I try, my computer goes nuts. Can someone summorize or post what the document says for those of us who cannot see it? I think this document is in the public domain?

Can I ask this, are there any grandpas in this family? If there aren't, I wonder if the kids would seek an older male subsitute to be friends with? I'm not saying anything bad about the girls and their intentions, or anything bad about the older men in their lives, just it might open them up to be lured by an unsafe older male.

I get such a bizarre feeling about this whole disappearance. Like many things are 'staged' and not really what they seem to be. But by who, and for what reason?

 

[Pensfan]

I got the feeling that underground reports were that there is a friend or family member that lives at the end of Lake Rd. Anyone know?

It's Grand Blvd.
Is there is a halfway house/apartment on that street?

 

[Athena12]

I got the feeling that underground reports were that there is a friend or family member that lives at the end of Lake Rd. Anyone know?

I've wondered about that, too...has it ever been confirmed that the uncle (JC) lives in the Carpenter's neighborhood?

In the interview that Drew & Heather Collins did with the Courier, the reporter asked them about what the Carpenters said about seeing Elizabeth frequently. Heather replied that if Elizabeth was riding on the Carpenters' street, she would have either been with an adult or she would have been there without her parents' permission.

She didn't specify what adult Elizabeth would have been with, and that made me wonder if maybe there is an adult relative who lives in that area.

 

[Ollipop]

I've been reading this thread for several days now. You all certainly have kept me on my toes and awake with all the posts. I'm several pages behind so please excuse me if I repeat anything that was already said.

1. Does it seem like their is an abundance of RSO in the area the girls rode bikes, it appears, on a regular basis? Maybe it's just me, but I don't know if I'd let my child ride around if I knew about all those predators (of course, I don't know if they are child predators or not, but it does seem like there are too many of them in the area).

2. I live near a bike/nature path and we have walked along it many times. The path always has numerous people on it. I'm just wondering how many people daily walk/ride the trail where the girls' bikes were found. I would think, on a summer day, there might be more than one rider who was able to report seeing the bikes (and swerving around one).

3. As someone who has been on a bike trail, I would find it strange if I saw two bikes (one definitely a child's bike, maybe both) lying on the pathway. I think I would have at least slowed down enough to look and make sure no one was injured as it seems, if he had to swerve, the bikes were almost thrown down on the ground. I would think it would be unusual to see this without seeing bikers close by. Just a thought ... I don't know maybe he just thought there were kids about somewhere.

4. I would never, in a million years, walk or ride the trail near my house alone and certainly wouldn't allow my child to do so. I don't live near a high-crime area, but the thought of isolation from the public seems a little scary. I wish I knew the area where Lyric and Elizabeth were riding ... maybe it's not that isolated. If that's the case, how was it someone took them without anyone noticing.

There seem to be so many loose ends in this case. I love the theories that I've been reading, but there are still so many unanswered questions.

As for a stranger abduction, it seems unlikely to me that someone would place the bikes there after taking the girls from another location. From what I've read about abductions, the kidnapper(s) do more of a grab and go then anything planned out to any degree. They usually stop their vehicle, get the kid in and leave. It seems like placing the bikes there after would take too much planning and leave them open to getting caught.

Also, I read that the FBI believes the girls are still alive. Did they say that in the beginning or are they still saying that?

1. I live here and was surprised at what I found when I began researching in this case. The leash on my children has been shortened significantly. Even sending them to the school bus stop - other end of the block but still in sight - is probably not going to happen this year. Luckily, there are many parents of similarly-aged children on and near my street, and we've all become familiar with each other and our children.

2. It's fairly busy, but not bustling. My family goes around the lake 2-3 times/week. Sometimes we see nobody, but its rare. Usually we'll pass 4-5 parties/people in 45 mins. The parking area on the lake is in view of most of the trail around the lake, and there is nearly always at least one or two people there, fishing or playing on the playground with kids.

3. I agree, but if he was on a schedule, or heading to the gas station (he said he used the restroom there), I can see if he just zoomed by, assuming the bike users where nearby.

4. The trail really isn't all that isolated, tbh. For the most part, you are in the open in people's back yards or along a road. The only truly isolated, secluded spot is right where the bikes were found.

 

[katydid23]

I've wondered about that, too...has it ever been confirmed that the uncle (JC) lives in the Carpenter's neighborhood?

In the interview that Drew & Heather Collins did with the Courier, the reporter asked them about what the Carpenters said about seeing Elizabeth frequently. Heather replied that if Elizabeth was riding on the Carpenters' street, she would have either been with an adult or she would have been there without her parents' permission.

She didn't specify what adult Elizabeth would have been with, and that made me wonder if maybe there is an adult relative who lives in that area.

Good point.

And once your 8, 9, 10 yr old rides away from your view on a bicycle, there is no telling WHERE they are riding to. We always went way past our supposed boundaries when we rode around in the summertime. Kids are kids.

It seems like grandma had a false sense of security when she claimed the girls would 'never go more than a block or two' away. That is how far one can travel in one minutes time. The girls were out that morning for 45 minutes before the sighting at BigNTall. Imagine how far they can ride in 45 minutes.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Yes but that was last done on July 16th. I can't find anything about searches after then. Has anyone else?

We're not allowed to discuss the scanner threads "upstairs."

 

[Pensfan]

1. I live here and was surprised at what I found when I began researching in this case. The leash on my children has been shortened significantly. Even sending them to the school bus stop - other end of the block but still in sight - is probably not going to happen this year. Luckily, there are many parents of similarly-aged children on and near my street, and we've all become familiar with each other and our children.

2. It's fairly busy, but not bustling. My family goes around the lake 2-3 times/week. Sometimes we see nobody, but its rare. Usually we'll pass 4-5 parties/people in 45 mins. The parking area on the lake is in view of most of the trail around the lake, and there is nearly always at least one or two people there, fishing or playing on the playground with kids.

3. I agree, but if he was on a schedule, or heading to the gas station (he said he used the restroom there), I can see if he just zoomed by, assuming the bike users where nearby.

4. The trail really isn't all that isolated, tbh. For the most part, you are in the open in people's back yards or along a road. The only truly isolated, secluded spot is right where the bikes were found.

Is it also pretty isolated from the spot where the bikes were found, out through the grassy woods path, and onto Artubus ? Artubus doesn't appear to have many houses on it.

 

[Ollipop]

Could the scent of the girls transfer from their bikes onto persons whom may have stolen the bikes from the girls. Thieves could have then dropped the bikes in the park and headed into those bushes. I do not know anything about scent dogs, so just wondering.

The purse being thrown, imo, sounds like older kids, whom may have thought there was going to be money in the purse and then just tossed it.

I know I have thrown this theory around on here before, but because of the timeline, I can't help but wonder if the girls were abducted in the vicinity of the streets where the video surveillance picked them up on or near Brovan. I realize the video is being analyzed to confirm it was E and L.

I am hopeful that LE won't put all their eggs in one basket and explore other possibilities of where the abduction occurred because imo, it did not happen at the lake.

The girls knew they had to be back as per their Grandma, so if that is them on the video, they were riding pretty fast and I think it was to get back to E's home.

Since LE have no leads, it would not hurt to look into other possible scenarios and do not focus on the lake.

All just IMO only, but the bikes were riding away from the lake.

This was my very first inclination. That spot where the bikes were found is just a perfect spot for some teens who'd just found some bikes with purse to race to and rifle thru said purse, out of view. Nothing in the purse of value, so they just tossed it over the fence and left the bikes. If someone saw them ride in, they wouldn't see them walk out, if they kept going in the same direction. Pure speculation, obviously.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

1. I live here and was surprised at what I found when I began researching in this case. The leash on my children has been shortened significantly. Even sending them to the school bus stop - other end of the block but still in sight - is probably not going to happen this year. Luckily, there are many parents of similarly-aged children on and near my street, and we've all become familiar with each other and our children.

2. It's fairly busy, but not bustling. My family goes around the lake 2-3 times/week. Sometimes we see nobody, but its rare. Usually we'll pass 4-5 parties/people in 45 mins. The parking area on the lake is in view of most of the trail around the lake, and there is nearly always at least one or two people there, fishing or playing on the playground with kids.

3. I agree, but if he was on a schedule, or heading to the gas station (he said he used the restroom there), I can see if he just zoomed by, assuming the bike users where nearby.

4. The trail really isn't all that isolated, tbh. For the most part, you are in the open in people's back yards or along a road. The only truly isolated, secluded spot is right where the bikes were found.

Reading that makes me wonder how well an abductor would have to know the area ... sounds less and less like a complete outsider.

It must be scary to have this so close to home, Ollipop. I live thousands of miles away and, after reading all of this, I keep checking on my son while he's playing on my back porch! It's all just too sad!

 

[CN2Souls]

I was very confused as to why the grandmother had become concerned at 12:30 and went to go looking for the girls,
Then I saw this video that I hadn’t seen before and now it makes more sense.
Misty at the 3:00 mark on this video.




http://youtu.be/J9MTo6tzU-8

That's along time and kids can get far an an hours time.


Also I didn't know Grandmother and 12 boy had gone to the lake and then came back before Tammy and her went down there.

 

[Mimiof8]

I'd like to, but I can't. Does anyone else have trouble looking at the dental board document? When I try, my computer goes nuts. Can someone summorize or post what the document says for those of us who cannot see it? I think this document is in the public domain?

Can I ask this, are there any grandpas in this family? If there aren't, I wonder if the kids would seek an older male subsitute to be friends with? I'm not saying anything bad about the girls and their intentions, or anything bad about the older men in their lives, just it might open them up to be lured by an unsafe older male.

I get such a bizarre feeling about this whole disappearance. Like many things are 'staged' and not really what they seem to be. But by who, and for what reason?

Sorry i tried to copy and paste partof the dental board document but I can't get it to work. It's a PDF document. I can't summarize as we aren't suppose to.

Grandpas, idk, I found tb's dad but nothing in msm related to this case. So he can't be discussed. I didn't find anything related to mcm's or hc's dad or dm's or dc's fathers either.

Sorry I wasn't much help.