IA IA - Elizabeth Collins & Lyric Cook - Found Deceased - Evansdale - 13 Jul 2012 #39
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TX TX - Toni Sue Swartz-Esbenshade, 24, Lockhart, 26 March 1984- Latest: ChatteringBirds
I have watched the documentary, and I understand why some people think that Klunder was responsible. Police place him in Stratford, Iowa on the day they disappeared. That is 1.5 hours from Evansdale.
The girls that he abducted shortly before he committed suicide were lured with an offer of a job mowing lawns. They were 14-15 years old.
How would he lure an 8 and 10 year old who were riding bikes?
I'm inclined to believe the police statement in 2014 that Klunder was investigated and confirmed to be in Stratford. The abduction, the 20 mile drive from Evansdale to 7 Bridges Park, walking with the girls to the location (away from a road) where they were murdered, and later returning to Stratford - police said he did not have time to do all that and be confirmed in Stratford. He needed 3.5 hours on the afternoon of July 13 where no one saw him. Police say that's not possible.
Police also said that the Delphi murders were someone local, and they said the same of the Evansdale murders.
The girls that he abducted shortly before he committed suicide were lured with an offer of a job mowing lawns. They were 14-15 years old.
How would he lure an 8 and 10 year old who were riding bikes?
I'm inclined to believe the police statement in 2014 that Klunder was investigated and confirmed to be in Stratford. The abduction, the 20 mile drive from Evansdale to 7 Bridges Park, walking with the girls to the location (away from a road) where they were murdered, and later returning to Stratford - police said he did not have time to do all that and be confirmed in Stratford. He needed 3.5 hours on the afternoon of July 13 where no one saw him. Police say that's not possible.
Police also said that the Delphi murders were someone local, and they said the same of the Evansdale murders.
Thinking more about Klunder as a suspect, I think it would make a life-changing difference for Elizabeth's father (per documentary) if he could put to rest the murders. If it was Klunder, her father will know that it was quick, that she wasn't alone (Lyric was with her), and that she did not suffer long. I think he could find some peace with that.
The documentary implies that cell phone data was used to identify Klunder's location on July 13, 2012. If so, I'm guessing that the cell phone was used in the Stratford area, and it wasn't just in one location during the afternoon. I don't think Klunder would have been ruled out if his phone was inactive and stationary during the time of the murders.
The documentary implies that cell phone data was used to identify Klunder's location on July 13, 2012. If so, I'm guessing that the cell phone was used in the Stratford area, and it wasn't just in one location during the afternoon. I don't think Klunder would have been ruled out if his phone was inactive and stationary during the time of the murders.
I was just reading through old discussions from 2012, looking for info about Seven Bridges Park being a youth camp in the 1990s (kayaking and other outdoor sports) and came across this very detailed map about the murders here:
The orange line is were a suspect could have parked. It was a party area until the highway was built. It is the treed area I mentioned earlier, where there is a city utility shed and intentional access to the drainage pipe and adjacent gate. Not everyone would know about that access to the lake and pathway.
Understanding how he managed to abduct Lyric and Elizabeth helps to understand who he is. When did he first see the girls? Why was the gate unlocked? I read today that he used "quiet coercion". I'm not familiar with the term, but Klunder used quiet coercion by offering two teens a job, then the use of a phone. Then they were handcuffed.
What does 'quiet coercion' look like with an 8 and 10 year old girl?
The girls parked and leaned their bikes against the fence, went through the (normally locked) gate, and walked along the shore line to his vehicle.
"What happened next is not known, but officials have said they believe the culprit used “quiet coercion” to abduct Lyric and Elizabeth."
link
Understanding how he managed to abduct Lyric and Elizabeth helps to understand who he is. When did he first see the girls? Why was the gate unlocked? I read today that he used "quiet coercion". I'm not familiar with the term, but Klunder used quiet coercion by offering two teens a job, then the use of a phone. Then they were handcuffed.
What does 'quiet coercion' look like with an 8 and 10 year old girl?
The girls parked and leaned their bikes against the fence, went through the (normally locked) gate, and walked along the shore line to his vehicle.
"What happened next is not known, but officials have said they believe the culprit used “quiet coercion” to abduct Lyric and Elizabeth."
link
Drew said that he would never allow his daughter to go for a long bike ride without an adult. "She was too young." We also know that 8 year old Elizabeth, not 10 year old Lyric, knew the route from her house to Meyer's Lake - because she had ridden there with other children.
Although their grandmother said that they were only allowed to cycle in the alley, did they cycle around Meyer's Lake more often? If so, that could be where they were first seen by their abductor.
The unlocked gate suggests that they were expected to cycle there at that time on that day. Quiet coercion could be something as easy as blocking the pathway, saying something about a parent, asking them to park their bikes, escorting them through the gate, telling Elizabeth to leave her purse with the bikes, and they would cooperate. It was mentioned in the documentary that the reason their shoes were with their bodies is because they walked there.
Although their grandmother said that they were only allowed to cycle in the alley, did they cycle around Meyer's Lake more often? If so, that could be where they were first seen by their abductor.
The unlocked gate suggests that they were expected to cycle there at that time on that day. Quiet coercion could be something as easy as blocking the pathway, saying something about a parent, asking them to park their bikes, escorting them through the gate, telling Elizabeth to leave her purse with the bikes, and they would cooperate. It was mentioned in the documentary that the reason their shoes were with their bodies is because they walked there.
At the time, we speculated that the abductor might have had Friday afternoon off work. The hog farm industry was discussed. The suspect is described has possibly having changed his appearance after the girls disappeared, and possibly again when their bodies were found.
If the girls routinely sneaked away from their grandmother (they were familiar to the lawn mower man), did they routinely cycle around the lake? Did the suspect intercept the girls at the gate because he expected them - making 'quiet coercion' (acting as an authority) easier?
Did he wear anything that looked like a uniform?
If the girls routinely sneaked away from their grandmother (they were familiar to the lawn mower man), did they routinely cycle around the lake? Did the suspect intercept the girls at the gate because he expected them - making 'quiet coercion' (acting as an authority) easier?
Did he wear anything that looked like a uniform?
If it was Klunder, he kidnapped two 3 year olds. I think they lived. Elizabeth and Lyric are unsolved Iowa kidnap-murders, then he kidnapped two young teenage girls shortly after serving 20 years of a 40 year sentence for kidnapping females.
Did he have an intense anger against females, starting with 3 year olds? Then 10 year olds, then 15 year olds, or was he in Stratford on July 13, 2012.
I'm curious what is known about Klunder's cell phone on July 13.
Did he have an intense anger against females, starting with 3 year olds? Then 10 year olds, then 15 year olds, or was he in Stratford on July 13, 2012.
I'm curious what is known about Klunder's cell phone on July 13.
iamshadow21
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He also attacked a woman driving her car, after lying about her tail light being out to get her to pull over. I don't think age really mattered to him, just vulnerability and whether he could control them.
MOO
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Quiet coercion. As opposed to a fast grab. I think it just means that the abductor convinced/pressured/coerced the girls to come with him. Lost puppy. Led them to his vehicle.
Always chilling to recall the image of the little girl walking out of the gas station. Holding her abductor's hand. Quiet coercion.
JMO
Always chilling to recall the image of the little girl walking out of the gas station. Holding her abductor's hand. Quiet coercion.
JMO
It looks like the suspect encountered them at the gate that leads to the lake
and along the shoreline to the utility station parking area (treed area). The gate was typically locked. It was unlocked when the bikes were found.
If quiet coercion is not a fast grab ... If he stepped in front of them on the pathway to slow them down and stop them at the gate, they should have been immediately worried - not quiet coercion.
... unless that person wore some sort of uniform that looked offical. The girls were too young to know whether overalls and other uniforms are official, but they might have believed, listened, politely parked their bikes, left Elizabeth's purse, and gone with the man if he looked official and said something that worried them.
... unless he told them that his puppy got away and could they help. Elizabeth might put her purse on the shore to look for a puppy in the trees.
Quiet coercion while they're cycling down the path, or was there a plan to be there that day at noon? Were they enticed to go to that isolated part of the trail, where the gate lock was misplaced?
It's rather coincidental that the gate was unlocked on the day the girls were cycling there, unless they routinely cycled there. If so, someone was watching them and might even have spoken with them earlier.
If someone noticed them cycling to Meyer's Lake routinely (sneaking away from their grandmother and pretending to cycle in the alley), then it is someone local - someone who noticed their habits over several days. How often did the grandmother babysit Lyric and her cousins at Heather and Drew's house? It was Summer holidays. Was it daily?
The highway road repair crew can be ruled out because they wouldn't know about Seven Bridges Park. Salesmen who come in and out of towns can be ruled out if this was someone who watched the girls, knew their habits, cut the gate lock, and ambushed the girls "quietly" on the pathway.
Going from memory, but the treed area was a party spot in the 1970s, and stopped being a party spot around 1990 when the highway might have been built. Seven Bridges Park was a youth camp for kayaking and outdoor sports until the 1990s when the nearby bridge collapsed - limiting access. I need to verify the dates, but that's roughly what I remember. That led me to believe that the abductor is either older, 40s, or young and aware of party/camp adventures through stories from a father.
The girls were abducted in 2012. I'm curious whether there are other instances of one or two girls missing in Evansdale or nearby cities - something left behind like a purse, a bike, a backpack - in the 1990s.
The highway road repair crew can be ruled out because they wouldn't know about Seven Bridges Park. Salesmen who come in and out of towns can be ruled out if this was someone who watched the girls, knew their habits, cut the gate lock, and ambushed the girls "quietly" on the pathway.
Going from memory, but the treed area was a party spot in the 1970s, and stopped being a party spot around 1990 when the highway might have been built. Seven Bridges Park was a youth camp for kayaking and outdoor sports until the 1990s when the nearby bridge collapsed - limiting access. I need to verify the dates, but that's roughly what I remember. That led me to believe that the abductor is either older, 40s, or young and aware of party/camp adventures through stories from a father.
The girls were abducted in 2012. I'm curious whether there are other instances of one or two girls missing in Evansdale or nearby cities - something left behind like a purse, a bike, a backpack - in the 1990s.
The abductor is familiar with the party area and gate at Meyer's Lake park, and with Seven Bridges County park. Almost everyone agrees that only someone local would know both areas. Local could mean Waverley, Stratford, Waterloo, Evansdale ...
As far as I recall, both the Meyer's Lake party spot, and the Seven Bridge youth camp, ended around the early 1990s. They were youth and young adult party and organized sports locations.
What age would someone be in 2012 if they were 14 years old in 1991 (parties/youth camp)? Born between 1973 and 1977, age 51-55 today.
Abducting two girls at once seems bold for a first-time. It might have been his crowning glory, maybe there won't be another murder like this that exposes him (like Morgan Harrington and Hannah Graham). In 2012, at the time of the double murder, a 55 year old today would be 41 years old. If he grew up in Waterloo/Evansdale, he would have been a teenager when Seven Bridge County park was a youth camp, and Meyer's Lake was a party spot (per Lyric's grandmother). Double abduction murder of children doesn't seem like a first-timer.
I looked at Iowa cold cases from 1990 to present and didn't see anything similar. From reading about murderers for decades, an opinion, but I think some murderers murder closer to home (Bundy was different) the more often they get away with it.
iowacoldcases.org
As far as I recall, both the Meyer's Lake party spot, and the Seven Bridge youth camp, ended around the early 1990s. They were youth and young adult party and organized sports locations.
What age would someone be in 2012 if they were 14 years old in 1991 (parties/youth camp)? Born between 1973 and 1977, age 51-55 today.
Abducting two girls at once seems bold for a first-time. It might have been his crowning glory, maybe there won't be another murder like this that exposes him (like Morgan Harrington and Hannah Graham). In 2012, at the time of the double murder, a 55 year old today would be 41 years old. If he grew up in Waterloo/Evansdale, he would have been a teenager when Seven Bridge County park was a youth camp, and Meyer's Lake was a party spot (per Lyric's grandmother). Double abduction murder of children doesn't seem like a first-timer.
I looked at Iowa cold cases from 1990 to present and didn't see anything similar. From reading about murderers for decades, an opinion, but I think some murderers murder closer to home (Bundy was different) the more often they get away with it.
Iowa Cold Cases 2000 – Present
Unsolved murders in Iowa from the year 2000 to the present.
Nina Michigan
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I watched Taken Together on Max last night. It's my first real experience with this case.
Why does Lyric use the last name Cook instead of Morrissey?
Any ideas? It's not an important question, but I'm curious.
Why does Lyric use the last name Cook instead of Morrissey?
Any ideas? It's not an important question, but I'm curious.