IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #42

[Confusion]

Once again, sorry for dumping a ton of quotes into one post, especially without being completely caught up, but I never seem to have time to just sit here and read everything before posting.

Yes that’s certainly possible. On the other hand it might be there was nothing at all known about CR that ever gave indication that he was capable of committing such an atrocity.

My immediate thought when I read those type of it-could-of-been-me media reports is if CR was aggressive or creepy and they felt even remotely in danger, why didn’t any of those other females report the incident to police at the time it happened?

I can understand why they wouldn't when it first happened, but not when they could have reported it as an anonymous tip after Mollie disappeared. Of course, I also thought that with a lot of the "metoo" people hitting the news. What a lot of women see as sexual harassment, was at one time accepted behavior. If I had a dollar for every time someone made a sexist remark to me (or touched me in what is now considered an inappropriate way, but wasn't then), I'd have more money than I knew what to do with. Of course, back when I was close to MT's age, I'd never report anything that happened.

I don’t think anybody here is giving him the benefit of the doubt, and I for one certainly couldn’t care less about his feelings. Nobody doubts his guilt, nobody feels sorry for him.

That said, there’s no reason to twist his history before the murder into a narrative that says he must have been a creepy stalker monster all along and probably planned this for years. He doesn’t seem to be that way at all. He could be the guy that lives right down the street from you that smiles and waves when you run into him at the grocery store. And that should scare the hell out of you more than any monster you were hoping to find.

I believe that most people have many more "creepy stalker monsters" living near by than they will ever know, or want to. Until they're caught, many, if not most, criminals are just the person next door (or down the street) to a lot of people. A lot of people seem to think that rapists, murderers, pedophiles, etc. have some kind of badge or tattoo that makes them obvious, but you can never know for sure about someone unless/until they actually act on their deviant thoughts, or at least try to.

None of these women after these incidents thought to mention this behavior to LE when MT went missing?

It is possible that one or more of them did call in a tip, but I really doubt it. I'm sure we would have heard about it by now if anyone had.

But no murderer is a 'nice guy' when they murder, that doesn't mean that before he murdered he wasn't nice or at least wasn't perceived as nice.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have sympathy for him nor do I feel there is any excuse for what he did but until this, as far as we know, the worst description of him by a few women was weird or creepy. Other than that, it was nice, a good father, etc. And that's the part that keeps me coming back to Websleuths. I think in my mind I'm always trying to figure it out - how did that person get to that point of no return? How could they? What influenced the deviant behavior that led to murder?

It would make this world a much better place if someone eventually figured out how two people from the same parents and raised under basically the same circumstances could be so different; one being a gentle, law-abiding citizen, involved in church, loving parent and so on, while another is a cold, calculating, violent deviant. Unfortunately, I doubt it will happen in my life time.

JMO - The more I learn about Fitbits, the less I lean towards that being an accurate picture of MT's heart rate in the moment's of her abduction/murder.

Some studies have shown Fitbits can be inaccurate during high-intensity levels:

Taking the Pulse of Fitbit's Contested Heart Rate Monitors

Their accuracy also depends on fit and placement:

Fitbit Help - What should I know about my heart rate data?

IF she didn't die immediately and bled to death, it would have caused low blood pressure:

Hypovolemic Shock: Causes, Symptoms & Diagnosis

I'm not posting links for this because they are more anecdotal complaints, but a lot of people say their Fitbit's aren't accurate if they have low blood pressure.

MOO - This makes me wonder about the 8:28pm time being related to something other than the Fitbit.

I don't have a Fitbit, but I do have a similar device with a different brand name. I also have a tendency to have low blood pressure a lot of the time. My heart rate on that device usually says the same thing as my oximeter, and that's usually the same as what readings at the clinic are. (My BP last night was 90/53, but my heart rate still recorded accurately.) Maybe that's not true once the BP gets down to a certain point though.

Things that are “odd” are not an issue until they are. I have neighbors I swear are in the witness protection program as they ignore everyone here. I don’t report them and after 12 years they are still here and good neighbors.

I don't find that odd. I've lived here for over 18 years and have only talked to a few neighbors during the whole time. Of course, that could just mean that I'm odd too.

It never hurts to report an incident that makes you uneasy or uncomfortable so that it is at least on file with the police department should something happen in the future. Start the paper trail.

I had called the police one time about a potential stalker, who was someone I talked to on the Internet. The day after I called him a stalker, I came home from work to find a message on my answering machine (he supposedly didn't know my last name, phone number or address). It was a recording of Fleetwood Mac singing a line from Silver Springs, "I will follow you down 'til the sound of my voice will haunt you." He (the LEO) told me there had been other complaints in the general area of someone on the Internet harassing women, and I should call if I saw any car or person within a few blocks of my house that I didn't recognize. He said that they'd much rather deal with a false alarm than deal with the aftermath of what could happen without a call.

Here’s the bottom line - you’re not going to be able to get in this guy’s head and know what he was thinking because your mind (hopefully) doesn’t go there.

I'm not going into a lot of detail on this one (yay!!), but my mind can go very near there. While I was growing up, I'd often hear about burglaries, murders, and a lot of other things that kids probably shouldn't have been hearing about. I'd sit and think about it and wonder, if I was going to do that, how would I do it so I wouldn't get caught? By the time I was a teen, I had come up with ways to commit the "perfect murder", break into various buildings, steal various things, etc. Even my DNA shows I have markers for not having much of a conscience, but I do have something just as good. I've always said, I may not have a conscience, but I have a healthy fear of getting caught. For the record, I've never acted on any of the crimes I came up with, or even had the desire to, I just enjoyed working out the logistics of those things. Eventually, I decided it was more interesting to try to figure out how someone else committed a crime than to think of how I would have done it. So, here I am... ok, maybe I am as odd as Jeng1810's neighbors.

Sorry for the novel.

 

[otto]

Perhaps with his limited English, there wasn’t much of a change in terms of him being more quiet than usual. Someone who doesn’t talk much to begin with, isn’t going to draw any attention to himself by talking even less. Plus, if his job simply involves solo manual labor, there isn’t going to be much to see in terms of unusual activity. This isn’t someone who works in an office, whose behavior is going to be considered more unusual if it deviates from his baseline.

This is what police wanted people to look for in the event that Mollie was the victim of a violent offender:

• Change in normal routine, which might include missing school, work, or routine engagements without a plausible explanation;
• A vehicle unexpectedly taken to a repair shop or sold/disposed of;
• Unexpected or intensive cleaning of a vehicle, possibly at an unusual time of day;
• Unexplained lack of contact or inability to get in touch with someone you know the evening of July 18th into the morning of July 19th;
• Altering of physical appearance (growth or removal of facial hair, change in cut or color of hair);
• Displays of anxiety, nervousness, stress or irritability;
• Unexplained injuries;
• Changes in consumption of alcohol, drugs or cigarettes;
• Changes in sleep patterns;
• Interest in the status of the investigation, including close attention to media coverage or an unwillingness to discuss the investigation.

The suspect did not miss work, he didn't get rid of his car, there was no lack of contact because the murder was done before the sun went down (or came up, depending on perspective), didn't alter his appearance, didn't seem nervous in court and presumably not nervous at work the following morning, probably can't afford alcohol, drugs, cigarettes but even if he could no change in patterns was noticed, unknown whether he slept like a baby after the murder.

He may have extensively cleaned his car, and wasn't it reported that he had an unwillingness to discuss the investigation (anyone remember what a friend reported about this?)

It's quite possible that the only changes were a car wash - and there's nothing unusual about that, and a discomfort with discussing a missing person - also nothing unusual.

 

[Peaches96]

Spousal homicide and stranger abduction/murder have different characteristics. The suspect was cool as a cucumber after pulling off a murder that got the attention of an international audience. That is remarkable!

I wonder what went through his mind every time he saw Mollie’s face on TV. If he ever got paranoid or if he just had zero emotion. You would think even a sociopath would become paranoid or agitated with as much coverage as her case brought. That being said, he could also be such a sick and twisted person that it excited him to see the news coverage while secretly knowing what he had done.

 

[MsBetsy]

<modsnip: snipped quote that was unapproved>

This articke

"This is shocking to us," Dane told reporters.

"Nobody saw a difference.

This guy stayed around for 35 days" after Mollie was killed, he said. Rivera continued coming to work, where he tended dairy cows, and seemed his usual self, Dane said.

"I'd say hello, he'd do his job, then he'd go home," Dane said of the suspect's demeanor since Tibbetts was reported missing on July 19.

Cristhian Rivera: What to Know About the Undocumented Immigrant Accused of Killing Mollie Tibbetts

This is the information I was trying to use to back up my opinion that he showed no remorse or guilt. How does a normal person go to work like nothing happened when just hours earlier he had just chased down and brutally stabbed a young woman to death. He had to have known it was agony for her. How do you conceal the horrible feeling of guilt and remorse unless you have no respect for human life? I don't even need to see the look in his eyes when he went to court. Just knowing he could carry on like nothing happened is enough to convince me he justified his actions enough to have no emotion about what he did.

 

[Rocco]

There was no reason for anyone, especially the suspect's co-workers, to think that he had murdered Mollie. If they had any suspicions that he was involved in her disappearance, they should have jumped at the money. They didn't, so I'm going to interpret that as meaning they had no idea that he was involved.

Didn't LE say at one of the early PCs that they thought she might be with someone who meant her no harm but there was just some sort of misunderstanding? And then they implored this person to just bring her back so as not to make matters worse and get in deeper trouble? Who would have suspected, after hearing that, that CR had abducted and murdered her?

 

[kpm]

If he had been arrested between the ages of 16 and 18 for a crime against another person, wouldn't he have been deported?

I do wonder if there is a criminal history from an earlier age, but those records would be in Mexico and who knows whether the records would be made available! Furthermore, his previous criminal history might be harming animals, peeping, stalking, sneaking into people's houses, and other crimes where he was never a suspect.

Anyone know about international criminal law regarding prior offenses?

I tend to think if he has prior crimes they went unreported

Numerous illegals get deported only to show right back up, think Kate Steinle murderer

There is a recent case of the man arrested while driving his wife to deliver a baby, there was a warrant out on him for murder in Mexico

 

[katydid23]

Good citation, thanks.

I hope that we can all agree to accept "stalking" as a euphemism, at the very least, for CR following MT with less than good intent, for however long. Everything else is just a question of degree, as the outcome is already known.

I think stalking is the perfect term here. He was slowly following her in his car. That is stalking, predatory behavior, in my opinion.

 

[kpm]

Didn't LE say at one of the early PCs that they thought she might be with someone who meant her no harm but there was just some sort of misunderstanding? And then they implored this person to just bring her back so as not to make matters worse and get in deeper trouble? Who would have suspected, after hearing that, that CR had abducted and murdered her?

Her father said that.

I don’t think LE ever mentioned that

 

[katydid23]

I do think we will come to find he “watched” Mollie and others from afar, if stories are true, he even approached some and contacted some on SM.

I think at the very least there could be a pattern of admiring from distance and approaching others

My bet is the DA will lay that all out with video and testimony

One teen already said he was watching her and he creeped her out too, recently. It is linked somewhere was upthread.

 

[otto]

This articke

This is the information I was trying to use to back up my opinion that he showed no remorse or guilt. How does a normal person go to work like nothing happened when just hours earlier he had just chased down and brutally stabbed a young woman to death. He had to have known it was agony for her. How do you conceal the horrible feeling of guilt and remorse unless you have no respect for human life? I don't even need to see the look in his eyes when he went to court. Just knowing he could carry on like nothing happened is enough to convince me he justified his actions enough to have no emotion about what he did.

It seems that he does not have normal feelings of guilt, remorse, or empathy regarding the suffering of others. This is typical of anti-social personality disorder, previously defined as sociopath and psychopath.

"The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits.

To diagnose antisocial personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:

A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:

1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):

a.Identity: Ego-centrism; self-esteem derived from personal gain, power, or pleasure.
b.Self-direction: Goal-setting based on personal gratification; absence of prosocial internal standards associated with failure to conform to lawful or culturally normative ethical behavior. AND​

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a.Empathy: Lack of concern for feelings, needs, or suffering of others; lack of remorse after hurting or mistreating another.
b.Intimacy: Incapacity for mutually intimate relationships, as exploitation is a primary means of relating to others, including by deceit and coercion; use of dominance or intimidation to control others"
​

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/car...ica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

 

[gliving]

Spousal homicide and stranger abduction/murder have different characteristics. The suspect was cool as a cucumber after pulling off a murder that got the attention of an international audience. That is remarkable!

It is remarkable. I owe that to Mollie's dad who is a marketing executive for an international firm. He was valiant in his effort to get the word out his daughter was missing. He made sure it hit national news very early on. It was heartbreaking to see him on the news begging for Mollie's return. Similar to Hannah Graham's father. Keep their name in the news.

Spousal/stranger, it all comes down to covering one's hide. No need to qualify.

 

[MsBetsy]

Once again, sorry for dumping a ton of quotes into one post, especially without being completely caught up, but I never seem to have time to just sit here and read everything before posting.


I can understand why they wouldn't when it first happened, but not when they could have reported it as an anonymous tip after Mollie disappeared. Of course, I also thought that with a lot of the "metoo" people hitting the news. What a lot of women see as sexual harassment, was at one time accepted behavior. If I had a dollar for every time someone made a sexist remark to me (or touched me in what is now considered an inappropriate way, but wasn't then), I'd have more money than I knew what to do with. Of course, back when I was close to MT's age, I'd never report anything that happened.


I believe that most people have many more "creepy stalker monsters" living near by than they will ever know, or want to. Until they're caught, many, if not most, criminals are just the person next door (or down the street) to a lot of people. A lot of people seem to think that rapists, murderers, pedophiles, etc. have some kind of badge or tattoo that makes them obvious, but you can never know for sure about someone unless/until they actually act on their deviant thoughts, or at least try to.


It is possible that one or more of them did call in a tip, but I really doubt it. I'm sure we would have heard about it by now if anyone had.


It would make this world a much better place if someone eventually figured out how two people from the same parents and raised under basically the same circumstances could be so different; one being a gentle, law-abiding citizen, involved in church, loving parent and so on, while another is a cold, calculating, violent deviant. Unfortunately, I doubt it will happen in my life time.


I don't have a Fitbit, but I do have a similar device with a different brand name. I also have a tendency to have low blood pressure a lot of the time. My heart rate on that device usually says the same thing as my oximeter, and that's usually the same as what readings at the clinic are. (My BP last night was 90/53, but my heart rate still recorded accurately.) Maybe that's not true once the BP gets down to a certain point though.


I don't find that odd. I've lived here for over 18 years and have only talked to a few neighbors during the whole time. Of course, that could just mean that I'm odd too.


I had called the police one time about a potential stalker, who was someone I talked to on the Internet. The day after I called him a stalker, I came home from work to find a message on my answering machine (he supposedly didn't know my last name, phone number or address). It was a recording of Fleetwood Mac singing a line from Silver Springs, "I will follow you down 'til the sound of my voice will haunt you." He (the LEO) told me there had been other complaints in the general area of someone on the Internet harassing women, and I should call if I saw any car or person within a few blocks of my house that I didn't recognize. He said that they'd much rather deal with a false alarm than deal with the aftermath of what could happen without a call.

I'm not going into a lot of detail on this one (yay!!), but my mind can go very near there. While I was growing up, I'd often hear about burglaries, murders, and a lot of other things that kids probably shouldn't have been hearing about. I'd sit and think about it and wonder, if I was going to do that, how would I do it so I wouldn't get caught? By the time I was a teen, I had come up with ways to commit the "perfect murder", break into various buildings, steal various things, etc. Even my DNA shows I have markers for not having much of a conscience, but I do have something just as good. I've always said, I may not have a conscience, but I have a healthy fear of getting caught. For the record, I've never acted on any of the crimes I came up with, or even had the desire to, I just enjoyed working out the logistics of those things. Eventually, I decided it was more interesting to try to figure out how someone else committed a crime than to think of how I would have done it. So, here I am... ok, maybe I am as odd as Jeng1810's neighbors.

Sorry for the novel.

In response to your question about why children in the same family can be so different I'm pretty sure the answer is because each child can inherit different genes from each parent. No confusion there . Unless of course there is some new study that suggests otherwise.

 

[Gardenista]

I think they’ll have full access to any criminal records in the United States, as they know what name he was using, and the time period in which he used it. My guess is that there hasn’t been previous law enforcement contact, although I continue to believe he committed prior crimes.
Mexico might be another matter, as law enforcement records have a tendency to be hit or miss, depending on the department.

Not necessarily. He could have stolen someone else's documents.

 

[kpm]

One teen already said he was watching her and he creeped her out too, recently. It is linked somewhere was upthread.

Yes, I linked those

 

[MassGuy]

Not necessarily. He could have stolen someone else's documents.

There would still likely be fingerprint records.

 

[Gardenista]

There would still likely be fingerprint records.

Didn't think of that!

 

[Rocco]

Her father said that.

I don’t think LE ever mentioned that

OK--Her father said it. He said it to the general public. I don't think anyone who knew CR and heard that would think, "Gosh, that sounds like something CR might have done." and have been suspicious of him.

 

[otto]

Didn't LE say at one of the early PCs that they thought she might be with someone who meant her no harm but there was just some sort of misunderstanding? And then they implored this person to just bring her back so as not to make matters worse and get in deeper trouble? Who would have suspected, after hearing that, that CR had abducted and murdered her?

I recall that this is what her father hoped. Police were looking for a missing person. Mollie's father certainly downplayed the idea that Mollie was murdered. Everyone should have been thinking about young men who were close to Mollie's age after hearing from her father. The suspect is in the right age range.

Everyone was asked to report anything unusual that would assist with the investigation, and to report to police if they were at any of the 5 locations of interest between 5-10 on July 18. There was no reason for anyone with information to hold back when the payout was nearly half a million dollars. That goes a long way in Mexico.

 

[kpm]

OK--Her father said it. He said it to the general public. I don't think anyone who knew CR and heard that would think, "Gosh, that sounds like something CR might have done." and have been suspicious of him.

True....

 

[katydid23]

I haven’t seen anything to indicate CR did anything that could even remotely be considered stalking prior to the day he abducted Mollie. I also haven’t seen anything to indicate he planned on doing anything. All indications are that when CR began harassing Mollie it was totally opportunistic, I don’t even he had any idea what was about to go down. It hurts to think there are probably a hundred variables that all could have played out differently and prevented this outcome.

When he was driving around slowly, watching her jog, and following her, what was he thinking?

How was it opportunistic? He created the situation through STALKING her.

An opportunity would be more like she came and sat down next to him in a vulnerable way and he grabbed it.

But he himself created this 'opportunity' by slowly following her in his car, and waiting until she came to the deserted part of her run. I call that stalking.

And we don't know that he never stalked her previously. He may have and never found the perfect moment to attack.

People do not just suddenly grab young joggers and throw them in the trunk, after stabbing them a few times first. I think some prior thoughts/fantasies happen first, if not prior assaults as well.