GUILTY IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #50

[MsBetsy]

Agent says lack of Spanish skills delayed Iowa investigation

Vileta said the evidence suggests Tibbetts was abducted on a road outside Brooklyn after 8 p.m., but that he does not know precisely where or when she was killed.

Data from Tibbetts’ cellphone provider shows her phone was moving at a running pace before accelerating to over 60 mph around 8:27 p.m. and eventually slowing down and stopping more than 10 miles away, FBI agent Kevin Horan testified. By 8:53 p.m., her phone went dark.

This suggests to me that CBR did not take Mollie to his house, which is less than 6 miles south of 385th Ave. on 200 (but he likely drove right past his house).

But I agree there is an opening for wonder at this stop he made. What happened there?

Iirc, in the beginning when LE was looking at the pig farmer, they were saying that it was near her phone's last ping. Somewhere there was a stop, and it was 26 minutes from when her phone suddenly headed south from 385th to when it went off.

There's definitely a hole in our knowledge of events.

I don't think there's much of a hole in the timeline. If he pulled over and got out of the car around 8:20, chased her down and disabled her, dragged her back to the car and put her in the trunk, it could have easily been 8:27 when he took off down the road.

He may have sped off initially, but I doubt he was driving that fast all the way to the cornfield. He also may have spent several minutes driving around, searching for a secluded spot. Maybe he even considered going to his house, but decided it was too risky.

He either turned off her phone before removing her from the trunk, or right after he covered the body and got back to his car. Imo

 

[FLmom777]

He's being voluntarily questioned / interviewed, is read the incomplete Miranda Rights. They find Mollie's blood
in the trunk during the voluntarily questioning / interview, so read him the complete Miranda Rights again, that now becomes a formal interview. I know the Judge decided to allow the evidence, but it's still there to be Appealed, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.

He gave permission to examine his car in the very beginning, before ac

I don't know what his sleeping patterns are, but up at 7am and finishing at 5pm I think, is a long day. The fact that he was sleeping at times, then woken, questioned, then sleeping, then woken, then questions, I'm not a psychologist, but -

Why Sleep Deprivation Is Torture.

I'm in my 60’s and worked hours like that quite often in the last several years. His working hours are not a factor, especially with being given time that he napped.

 

[katydid23]

I don't know what his sleeping patterns are, but up at 7am and finishing at 5pm I think, is a long day. The fact that he was sleeping at times, then woken, questioned, then sleeping, then woken, then questions, I'm not a psychologist, but -

Why Sleep Deprivation Is Torture.

Did you read this^^ article. Here is the opening argument:


“Sleep deprivation involved keeping detainees awake for up to 180 hours, usually standing or in stress positions, at time with their hands shackled above their heads. At least five detainees experienced disturbing hallucinations during prolonged sleep deprivation and, in at least two of those cases, the CIA nonetheless continued the sleep deprivation.”

Did we see anything at all like that^^ I this case? Not even close.

It was not 180 hours---it was 11 in total, including breaks for food and drink and cat naps. And phone time.

Your article was discussing 'PROLONGED sleep deprivation with physical torture techniques as well...


He was not 'tortured' , he was pressured and interrogated because he was the last one seen by Mollie before she went missing. He was seen circling her on the street that night. And she was never seen on any cameras after that.

So I would expect the investigators to keep him focused and keep pressure on him, in order to find the missing girl. They did a great job, in my opinion.

 

[katydid23]

Whose saying that Mollie isn't entitled to the same Justice?

The correct protocols weren't followed, yes LE tried to correct themselves, yes the Judge allowed it, but law enforcement did 'transgress' that is a 'fact'.

The correct protocols were followed. They made a minor mistake, by accidentally leaving out one sentence of the MR. That is not a grievous or malicious transgression. People make mistakes. They rectified them as soon as they realised their error. Which is why the judge only denied a portion of the evidence at the trial.

The defendant made much bigger transgressions than any of the officers or attorneys did. And that is a fact.

 

[Alethea]

The blood evidence is not tied to the information allowed at trial (at all). Investigators received permission from the suspect earlier in the day, to search both his home and his vehicle. A miranda warning is not required if investigators have received verbal or written authorization to do so. Did some of the questioning that night pertain to the blood found in/on the vehicle? Most likely. However; that portion of the interview was excluded from trial.

I am not completely understanding why this may be an issue? The man convicted of murder admitted on the witnesses stand himself that Mollie's deceased body was in the trunk of his car. He was not at the police station being interviewed when he made the following statements (again; on the witness stand): he removed her body from the trunk of his car, walked into the corn field, laid her on the ground, covered her with corn stalks, then just walked away. He kept this secret to himself for 5 weeks. Because he was scared. He obviously did not take into account the sheer terror Mollie must have felt.

IMO, any statements made in a court of law, under sworn testimony should not be cause for an appeal. As far as I know, witnesses do not require a miranda warning to testify? Maybe one of our dedicated attorneys can better answer that? IF he lied on the witness stand (ninjas come to mind), he should be held accountable for perjury.

Correct, there’s no Miranda warning for voluntary testimony. Any attorney (defense or prosecution) would definitely tell their witnesses about perjury and the need to be truthful - and even their right to invoke the 5th amendment if they would be incriminating themselves while testifying.

I am part of a working group of criminal defense attorneys and people come with the absolute most bizarre scenarios looking for advice and other people’s opinions. I still think your client telling you he had a woman’s body in the trunk of his car and told LE about it is one of the worst situations you can have. You have very little room to try to explain it. It’s one of those things your client would never say unless it was true!

 

[Alethea]

The correct protocols were followed. They made a minor mistake, by accidentally leaving out one sentence of the MR. That is not a grievous or malicious transgression. People make mistakes. They rectified them as soon as they realised their error. Which is why the judge only denied a portion of the evidence at the trial.

The defendant made much bigger transgressions than any of the officers or attorneys did. And that is a fact.

And in these situations, you have to look at the totality of the facts. When he consented to the searches, when he led them to the body - each step along the way is an independent act where he could have said “actually I’d like to talk to an attorney first” and everything would have stopped. He continually consented as this was happening.

 

[TL4S]

Answer: He killed her....at the cornfield.
Okay I used to run maybe this will help you. Mollie ran a 10 minute mile. The route she was going that day was 3 miles out to 200th st turn around and 3 miles back. Mollie left at about 7:30, so she should have been back by 8:45. Christina S. saw her on 385th by the S curve around 7:45 ish. She would have hit 200th st at about 8:15..so she is on time to hit 200th, turn around and start back home.
She was abducted between 8:20 and 8:30...on her way back. Remember CBR said he made a U turn. Why say that? Because he did. Mollie was going back home. So to get back to 200th and then to the cornfield he had to turn around.

Anyway...he drives 10 miles at 60 mph. That puts him by the cornfield by 8:35 ish. The pig farmer is basically around the corner...10 miles from 385th.

To me, there was no stop...the phone went dark 26 minutes later because he ripped it off of her arm (it was in a running armband) and turned it off. She was dead by 8:53 -9 pm. He didn't make a stop on the way..he was at his destination...the cornfield...10 miles away.
8:27 -8:35 ish he is driving to the cornfield.
8:35 ish to 8:53 ish he is attacking raping killing and she is dead and so is her phone.
There is no stop..except the cornfield.
He never went to or past his house. He went 385th to 200th to 460th to cornfield. Kill. Done.
The phone stopped 10 miles away because that is where the cornfield is.

This all makes sense, except that the timeline doesn't match Horan's testimony of cell data. He said there was varying speeds after 8:28, and from around 8:35 to 8:53, beginning 4-5 miles south of 385th Ave. (which, coincidentally, coincides with the southernmost dot on LE's point-of-iterest map put out when she were missing), the phone was traveling around 60mph. At one point it slowed down, the arcs overlapped (so an assumed stop), and after 8:53 there was nothing. So he was not at the cornfield already by 8:35. However, I'll concede that we do not know at what time he slowed and stopped. The only thing the experts were able to tell us was the general area the slow occurred, which was in a 17 sq. mile area which included the pig farmer's house and the cornfield.

If Mollie was alive when CBR put her in the trunk, I don't think he would have left her phone on her arm. jmo. She could have called for help. Maybe he took it from her on 385th.

And CBR did live off 200 (he did not live on Yarabee farm proper, but housing provided), and if that's the route he took, he did go right past his house. It's like 3 miles south of 385th. Testimony did not cover what happened between 8:28 and 8:35 other than "varying speeds." I'm not saying he stopped at his house. I'm saying we don't know.

My issue is not with CBR's guilt. I just wish we had a clearer picture of events between 8:28 and 8:53. If LE doesn't know where or when she was killed, than neither do I. But I'm wondering why it took CBR something around 20 minutes to get 10 miles away, sometimes going at 60mph. I very well might be missing something...

Horan talks about this at around the 38 min mark.

 

[loreet]

I agree there are many unanswered questions about Mollie’s death. This is not on the investigators IMO and additional information won’t change anything about CBR’s sentence. Would more detail about those last minutes of her life help Mollie’s family and loved ones in their grief?

The unknown facts and details that are really bothering me are ones I haven’t seen mentioned lately. Clearly CBR knew enough to turn off and get rid of Mollie’s phone and her FitBit. He had the murder weapon with him and was prepared. I also believe as others have stated that he had stalked her previously. And the proximity of Mollie’s body to WC’s farm could have been a setup honestly. Were WC’s stalking charges publicly known? Without the video showing his car, CBR may well have gotten away with Mollie’s murder. I believe Mollie’s assault and murder may have been planned for some time.

 

[MsBetsy]

This all makes sense, except that the timeline doesn't match Horan's testimony of cell data. He said there was varying speeds after 8:28, and from around 8:35 to 8:53, beginning 4-5 miles south of 385th Ave. (which, coincidentally, coincides with the southernmost dot on LE's point-of-iterest map put out when she were missing), the phone was traveling around 60mph. At one point it slowed down, the arcs overlapped (so an assumed stop), and after 8:53 there was nothing. So he was not at the cornfield already by 8:35. However, I'll concede that we do not know at what time he slowed and stopped. The only thing the experts were able to tell us was the general area the slow occurred, which was in a 17 sq. mile area which included the pig farmer's house and the cornfield.

If Mollie was alive when CBR put her in the trunk, I don't think he would have left her phone on her arm. jmo. She could have called for help. Maybe he took it from her on 385th.

And CBR did live off 200 (he did not live on Yarabee farm proper, but housing provided), and if that's the route he took, he did go right past his house. It's like 3 miles south of 385th. Testimony did not cover what happened between 8:28 and 8:35 other than "varying speeds." I'm not saying he stopped at his house. I'm saying we don't know.

My issue is not with CBR's guilt. I just wish we had a clearer picture of events between 8:28 and 8:53. If LE doesn't know where or when she was killed, than neither do I. But I'm wondering why it took CBR something around 20 minutes to get 10 miles away, sometimes going at 60mph. I very well might be missing something...

Horan talks about this at around the 38 min mark.

I don't think he drove the whole ten miles at 60 miles an hour. At one point the car must have been travelling at a much lower speed, since the witness said according to the data, the arcs banded in that area (near the cornfield) and then the phone went dead at 8:53 pm. I'm guessing he would have had to slow down well before the turn onto the dirt road otherwise he would have missed it.

If he got to the cornfield around 8:40, that only leaves about 13 minutes for him to have gone somewhere else. Where could he have gone? We also don't know if he had that spot picked out before the abduction. As I mentioned earlier, he could have been searching for a secluded location, or maybe he couldn't remember exactly where the dirt road was.

I don't think it needs to be any clearer. We know he attacked her, assaulted her, and left her dead in the cornfield. LE couldn't tell the exact location from the phone data, but they knew the general location the phone travelled to and soon after, went dark.

IMO

 

[MsBetsy]

Did you read this^^ article. Here is the opening argument:


“Sleep deprivation involved keeping detainees awake for up to 180 hours, usually standing or in stress positions, at time with their hands shackled above their heads. At least five detainees experienced disturbing hallucinations during prolonged sleep deprivation and, in at least two of those cases, the CIA nonetheless continued the sleep deprivation.”

Did we see anything at all like that^^ I this case? Not even close.

It was not 180 hours---it was 11 in total, including breaks for food and drink and cat naps. And phone time.

Your article was discussing 'PROLONGED sleep deprivation with physical torture techniques as well...


He was not 'tortured' , he was pressured and interrogated because he was the last one seen by Mollie before she went missing. He was seen circling her on the street that night. And she was never seen on any cameras after that.

So I would expect the investigators to keep him focused and keep pressure on him, in order to find the missing girl. They did a great job, in my opinion.

Yeah, missing one night of sleep is hardly sleep deprivation. There are plenty of people his age who can work all day and then hang out in a bar until late, or stay up all night studying for an exam. It's more likely the investigators were sleep deprived. They sometimes have to work around the clock. It's not their fault he lied and wouldn't cooperate in the beginning.

At least they gave him a chance to eat and have a few power naps. I don't know how anyone would see that as torture compared to what he did to Molly.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

This all makes sense, except that the timeline doesn't match Horan's testimony of cell data. He said there was varying speeds after 8:28, and from around 8:35 to 8:53, beginning 4-5 miles south of 385th Ave. (which, coincidentally, coincides with the southernmost dot on LE's point-of-iterest map put out when she were missing), the phone was traveling around 60mph. At one point it slowed down, the arcs overlapped (so an assumed stop), and after 8:53 there was nothing. So he was not at the cornfield already by 8:35. However, I'll concede that we do not know at what time he slowed and stopped. The only thing the experts were able to tell us was the general area the slow occurred, which was in a 17 sq. mile area which included the pig farmer's house and the cornfield.

If Mollie was alive when CBR put her in the trunk, I don't think he would have left her phone on her arm. jmo. She could have called for help. Maybe he took it from her on 385th.

And CBR did live off 200 (he did not live on Yarabee farm proper, but housing provided), and if that's the route he took, he did go right past his house. It's like 3 miles south of 385th. Testimony did not cover what happened between 8:28 and 8:35 other than "varying speeds." I'm not saying he stopped at his house. I'm saying we don't know.

My issue is not with CBR's guilt. I just wish we had a clearer picture of events between 8:28 and 8:53. If LE doesn't know where or when she was killed, than neither do I. But I'm wondering why it took CBR something around 20 minutes to get 10 miles away, sometimes going at 60mph. I very well might be missing something...

Horan talks about this at around the 38 min mark.

The only reason there are any questions as to exactly what happened is because Mollie Tibbett’s killer has chosen to claim he “blocked/blacked out”. I don’t believe that for a second.
I personally think Mollie was injured and unconscious in the trunk of the car. CBR has the answer for us all, but he’s not talking.
If he was riding around for twenty minutes to go ten miles maybe he was trying to figure out where exactly to take her. Again though, CBR has the answer to that and he’s not talking.
I don’t need to know the details or fill in the gaps because the gaps are caused by killer not filling them in. There was still plenty of evidence that pointed only to CBR.

 

[Seattle1]

The only reason there are any questions as to exactly what happened is because Mollie Tibbett’s killer has chosen to claim he “blocked/blacked out”. I don’t believe that for a second.
I personally think Mollie was injured and unconscious in the trunk of the car. CBR has the answer for us all, but he’s not talking.
If he was riding around for twenty minutes to go ten miles maybe he was trying to figure out where exactly to take her. Again though, CBR has the answer to that and he’s not talking.
I don’t need to know the details or fill in the gaps because the gaps are caused by killer not filling them in. There was still plenty of evidence that pointed only to CBR.

If others helped CBR kill Mollie, it doesn't follow that he would testify that a couple of ninjas unknown to did it! If the ninjas had names -- he would have gladly made a deal for 2nd-degree murder. Nope - CBR did this all on his own. MOO

 

[Seattle1]

Just days after Mollie's body recovered, I believe this profiler sums up what most likely happened and why.

Forensic profiler talks motive in the Mollie Tibbetts case

 

[Seattle1]

Data from Tibbetts’ cellphone provider shows her phone was moving at a running pace before accelerating to over 60 mph around 8:27 p.m. and eventually slowing down and stopping more than 10 miles away, FBI agent Kevin Horan testified. By 8:53 p.m., her phone went dark.

^^rsbm

He may have sped off initially, but I doubt he was driving that fast all the way to the cornfield.

^^rsbm

I think visualizing the rural area helps understand how the vehicle could initially accelerate and slow down. See map and terrain in the video linked below.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=686747211697522

 

[TL4S]

I don't think he drove the whole ten miles at 60 miles an hour. LE only said the phone was travelling that fast in the location of the abduction. At one point the car must have been travelling at a much lower speed, since the witness said according to the data, the arcs banded in that area (near the cornfield) and then the phone went dead at 8:53 pm. I'm guessing he would have had to slow down well before the turn onto the dirt road otherwise he would have missed it.

If he got to the cornfield around 8:40, that only leaves about 13 minutes for him to have gone somewhere else. Where could he have gone? We also don't know if he had that spot picked out before the abduction. As I mentioned earlier, he could have been searching for a secluded location, or maybe he couldn't remember exactly where the dirt road was.

I don't think it needs to be any clearer. We know he attacked her, assaulted her, and left her dead in the cornfield. LE couldn't tell the exact location from the phone data, but they knew the general location the phone travelled to and soon after, went dark.

IMO

I agree, there seems to be a logical sequence of events for that night, from 8:28 through 8:53. CBR injures and abducts her on 385th Ave., drives at varying speeds to the cornfield, where he, alone, assaults and kills her. Done.

There's a good chance that is exactly how it went down.

But, let's not dismiss those who say there are unanswered questions. LE testified they can not determine when or where Mollie died. The tech expert can not determine exactly where her phone was located when it went dark. The cell tower based search area was 17 sq. miles, so how can we determined that the phone went dark at the cornfield and not somewhere else in that 17 sq. mile area? Why was there a dot at 430th and 200 on the LE point-of-interest map early on? Mollie Tibbetts search: Investigators highlight five possible points of interest

CBR got caught and confessed, came up with a couple different stories, and from what we know, isn't talking about the rest. We can all assume as to the whys, but as @SharonNeedles pointed out, justice for Mollie is to have everyone connected be convicted. Likely, CBR IS the only guilty party. BUT, if anyone else was involved either before, during, or after the crime was committed, they are getting off scot-free unless CBR talks, and who knows why he might not. I think it's a fair point to make, since we don't have all the answers.

 

[rebel123]

Specific to this case, there were more than two days of evidence suppression hearings relative to the deficient Miranda Warning. Having watched the actual proceedings live, I reject any claim that CBR's rights violated or that he's been wrongfully convicted! I believe Court TV still has the suppression hearings online.
MOO

No doubt the Judge has reasons for allo

Ok, so he had an 11 hour workday....there was a young lady missing---should the cops let him go and sleep , and ignore the missing and endangered victim? Isn't time of the essence when there is a kidnapping?

They knew he owned the car that was stalking the missing girl. Doesn't that take precedence over this needed rest? The cops were very tired as well, working overtime trying to find Mollie.

And he was given chances to rest during that long interview. He laid his head down and took a nap a couple of times. And had food and water breaks. More than he gave his victim, that's for sure.

He had an 11 hour work day, was questioned for a similar period. He was clearly 'tired' and could have been 'babbling' any old rubbish; that's not conducive with 'best evidence' According to Romaro he was free to leave at anytime, that's what she testified in court.

The cops might have been tired, but as pointed out by the Defence Team, law enforcement had substantial resources, actually anything they wanted,
"unlimited resources of the federal government," including the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security.

When you state 'And he was given chances to rest during that long interview' Is that when Romero went off to her senior officers to feed them his statements and obtain a strategy for further questioning. So he was given rest time when they dictated he should rest. No doubt the interview in Spanish would tell us more.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I agree, there seems to be a logical sequence of events for that night, from 8:28 through 8:53. CBR injures and abducts her on 385th Ave., drives at varying speeds to the cornfield, where he, alone, assaults and kills her. Done.

There's a good chance that is exactly how it went down.

But, let's not dismiss those who say there are unanswered questions. LE testified they can not determine when or where Mollie died. The tech expert can not determine exactly where her phone was located when it went dark. The search area was 17 sq. ft, so how can it be determined that the phone went dark at the cornfield and not somewhere else in that 17 sq. ft area? Why was there a dot at 430th and 200 on the LE point-of-interest map early on? Mollie Tibbetts search: Investigators highlight five possible points of interest

CBR got caught and confessed, came up with a couple different stories, and from what we know, isn't talking about the rest. We can all assume as to the whys, but as @SharonNeedles pointed out, justice for Mollie is to have everyone connected be convicted. Likely, CBR IS the only guilty party. BUT, if anyone else was involved either before, during, or after the crime was committed, they are getting off scot-free unless CBR talks, and who knows why he might not. I think it's a fair point to make, since we don't have all the answers.

I guess the impasse here is whether there is anything else to investigate. I personally don’t think so. LE ran down every relevant piece of evidence to its very end. And I emphasize “relevant piece of evidence” here because the defense went out of their way to try and make it sound like LE ignored things, all of which did not matter in the least to the case.
The answers to your questions lie solely at the feet of Mollie’s killer. He is the one holding up people knowing these things. Mollie’s body was found a month after her murder. Forensics can’t tell us now when and where she died. The killer can, but he’s not talking. Technology can’t pinpoint exactly where Mollie’s phone shut off, it just can’t. The killer knows that information. He’s not talking.
I don’t really understand how even knowing the answers to these questions changes anything or could somehow point to more people being involved. Perhaps if the killer or his defense attorneys(who claim he told them the ninja story in 2018) had let police know about the ninjas they could have investigated it. Or maybe the defense attorneys could have investigated it themselves. Wonder why they didn’t? My thinking is that they didn’t because it is a preposterous story, and the investigation into real and relevant things in this case point to the convicted killer alone. I would also point out that his family is still alive and well after his testimony despite the supposed threat to their lives.
For me, we have all the pertinent answers.

 

[FLmom777]

He's being voluntarily questioned / interviewed, is read the incomplete Miranda Rights. They find Mollie's blood
in the trunk during the voluntarily questioning / interview, so read him the complete Miranda Rights again, that now becomes a formal interview. I know the Judge decided to allow the evidence, but it's still there to be Appealed, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.

He gave permission to examine his car in the very beginning, before ac

I don't know what his sleeping patterns are, but up at 7am and finishing at 5pm I think, is a long day. The fact that he was sleeping at times, then woken, questioned, then sleeping, then woken, then questions, I'm not a psychologist, but -

Why Sleep Deprivation Is Torture.

I'm in my 60’s and worked hours like that quite often in the last several years. His working hours are not a factor, especially with being given time that he napped.

No doubt the Judge has reasons for allo


He had an 11 hour work day, was questioned for a similar period. He was clearly 'tired' and could have been 'babbling' any old rubbish; that's not conducive with 'best evidence' According to Romaro he was free to leave at anytime, that's what she testified in court.

The cops might have been tired, but as pointed out by the Defence Team, law enforcement had substantial resources, actually anything they wanted,
"unlimited resources of the federal government," including the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security.

When you state 'And he was given chances to rest during that long interview' Is that when Romero went off to her senior officers to feed them his statements and obtain a strategy for further questioning. So he was given rest time when they dictated he should rest. No doubt the interview in Spanish would tell us more.

I really don’t care if he was tired. I have worked as much as 25 hours straight without any break and still came home and took care of what needed done before sleeping. This in my 60’s. My job required me to be attentive to details as well as physically working, including climbing ladders. He is a young man. On top of that his adrenaline had to be surging knowing that they were aware of what he did. Tired doesn’t give him any sympathy from me.

 

[rebel123]

Torture is stalking Mollie, repeatedly stabbing her, likely raping her, and leaving her for the elements, bugs and animals to eat away at her body for 5 weeks so that all DNA is gone and no evidence can be lifted from her body.

The interviewer testified that he was engaging in conversation, answering questions and never mentioned he was tired. He was there being interviewed about a girl he murdered (or if you believe his story about 2 masked me.. then he was there being interviewed and should have been hyped up on adrenaline because his daughter and his mom would be in danger now that he was talking). Even if he was tired, that doesn't make someone somehow know where a body is located if they didn't have anything to do with it.

My post was dealing strictly with the interview, his state / condition during the interview. I see you've bought in other topics, i.e. 'if you believe his story about 2 masked me..'

 

[rebel123]

We can argue semantics till the end of time. In this case specifically I’m damn glad they did the
Due Diligence they did do. Are some(very few) innocently accused? Sure. No system is perfect. But it’s a tiny percentage compared to those actually rightfully accused. When you battle…gangs, rapists, murderers….who don’t frankly give a damn about your “rules” your “code”…..you have to be willing to roll up your selves and get a little dirty like they do in order to stop them. Does that mean you break laws? No. Does that mean you follow the laws to an absolute “T”. Meaning you apply them to the very boundary of being “illegal”. Yes… There is wiggle room for a reason(in other words…argue your defense in a court of law). I give all our LE the ability to do their job and find/arrest these horrific criminals….and if that makes me the bad guy? So be it. All I ask is our LE do their job to the absolute limit. Period. End of story.

I guarantee that if someone close to you, say a friend was convicted because 'due process' hadn't been followed, you would have a totally different perspective and opinion or maybe you wouldn't.