ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

[Mrs G Norris]

I truly do not see the point of keeping a gun in your purse, even if it is a "specially designed" purse. If you are, for example, walking down a street at night and someone gets the jump on you, pulls a knife or grabs you or whatever, do people really think they are going to be able to get their gun out of their purse to defend themselves? Like they are Quick Draw McGraw or something? I mean really, unless you have super mad reflex skills, the attacker has the upper hand all the way, and you will most likely end up wounded or dead, and the attacker will not only have robbed you of your valuables, they also now have your gun to use when they go out and commit more crimes. Completely pointless in my view.

Agree, especially since the first thing that kind of attacker is going to grab is that same purse .. this would just be one more way guns end up on the streets I think.

 

[Archangel7]

It really distills down to risk assessment and cost benefit analysis on whether one wishes to carry or not. That is coupled with all the checks done to determine eligibility to carry and of course assuming one is approved via the form 4473 for purchase from a dealer.

Or you can buy one person to person and then apply for carry.

I don't expect or live in fear of flat tires but I always carry a spare tire. Same with a fire ext.
If firearms are not for some people, I respect their choice, I expect the same in return.

 

[al66pine]

I truly do not see the point of keeping a gun in your purse, even if it is a "specially designed" purse. If you are, for example, walking down a street at night and someone gets the jump on you, pulls a knife or grabs you or whatever, do people really think they are going to be able to get their gun out of their purse to defend themselves? Like they are Quick Draw McGraw or something? I mean really, unless you have super mad reflex skills, the attacker has the upper hand all the way....

bbm sbm

IIUC, the special design is a glorified pocket/compartment within the purse.
A person carrying a handgun in a purse, bag, briefcase, gym duffle, backpack, messenger bag or virtually anything other than a holster,
may very well get a bunch of stuff tangled up w the gun, which w/impede drawing the gun, e.g., phone cables, earbuds, etc.
Other prob w gun in purse, etc. is that placed without designated compartment, gun w/ 'sink to the bottom, also impeding draw.

So, IIUC, specially designed purse helps only if - surprise - it's used per instructions, to keep gun in that pocket and nothing else,
so there's no tangle, no race to the bottom.

And importantly, as you say, melissasmom, a person being approached for attack still needs time for reaction and drawing gun.

A person walking around without situational awareness may be doomed with or without a self-defense weapon.
But this death does not involve self-defense.

JM2cts.

 

[tlcya]

If carry is within the law then I feel someone should actually carry. Like on their person. From a risk/liability standpoint, one must weigh these factors. Their assessment can affect and ultimately end a life. Serious stuff. Just moo.

 

[al66pine]

FWIW. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Idaho

"Idaho is a "shall issue" state for concealed carry. The local county sheriff shall issue a concealed weapons license to a qualified applicant within 90 days. Applicants may be required to demonstrate familiarity with a firearm, generally by having taken an approved training course or by having received training in the military.... A concealed weapon may not be carried at a school (primary or secondary) or at a school sponsored activity, in a courthouse, in a prison or detention facility, at a psychiatric hospital, or in certain other governmentally designated locations. It is unlawful to carry a concealed weapon while intoxicated." bbm sbm
And
"Open carry is legal in Idaho. A concealed weapons license is not required for open carry, nor for long guns (concealed or not). The firearm being openly carried must be clearly visible. A firearm can also be transported in a vehicle, as long as it is in plain view, or is disassembled or unloaded.[SUP][2][/SUP] A concealed weapons license is not required when you are outside the confines of a city, and not in a motor vehicle while engaged in other lawful outdoor activities." bbm

[SUP][/SUP]

 

[Archangel7]

If carry is within the law then I feel someone should actually carry. Like on their person. From a risk/liability standpoint, one must weigh these factors. Their assessment can affect and ultimately end a life. Serious stuff. Just moo.

True. It is the very consequences I mentioned. Lethal force is lethal force whether it was meant to be or not. There are parameters for it's lawful use and civil and criminal consequences if it's not lawful. It goes back to being self responsible. One cant get a bullet back once it's fired. Either accidently or on purpose.

It should be a decision not made lightly to accept responsibility for being armed.

Just as I would be aware of my firearm on duty in a crowd, so must others in the same situation or around kids.
She had a mental lapse placing the purse near the child with a gun in it. Likely she had done so many times prior to getting the "gun purse" and I can see the dots connecting in her mind. "I'll just set my purse in here." Only this time the purse had a gun.

You just have to be so aware when one carries a gun, there are no do overs.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

So say hypothetically the child did not shoot and kill his mother, but some innocent bystander instead.

Would the mother have faced any legal action?

Should she have?

Or should the whole thing be dismissed because she just made a mistake?

 

[Archangel7]

So say hypothetically the child did not shoot and kill his mother, but some innocent bystander instead.

Would the mother have faced any legal action?

Should she have?

Or should the whole thing be dismissed because she just made a mistake?

Likely legal action, not a given on criminal. It would depend on an in depth investigation and many questions answered about the facts as they existed.

 

[al66pine]

When I carry my weapon it is inside a leather holster (it fits very firmly inside the holster) and I have the kind of holster that is worn inside of my jeans.

She just didn't think it all the way through and it cost her .........her life and its so sad for the child who was not at fault.

sbm bbm

Good to find someone here w CCW exp.
Does carrying in a holster around a squirmy toddler make sense? W/you be comfortable doing it? W/you recommend it to others?

If a person wants to carry gun in a purse (w or w/out spec. design) seems, imo, to make sense to keep it on the shoulder.
And, imo, that would be same, w or w/out a toddler. JM2cts.

 

[Brightbird]

Are you assuming there is no consequences to what you have spelled out? I am sure she didn't realize she had possibly endangered her child. She made a mistake. No law is going to force her to use her cerebral capacity. Do you think a law will prevent accidents?

If it will I want some passed.

Will a law prevent accidents? Yes, I think so. This isn't an absolutism though. Some (perhaps most) laws and regulations are designed to change behavior. At first, people are often resistant to change but the prospect of a hefty fine or criminal record encourages some to change their behavior. More people follow when they see the new laws aren't so limiting after all. And even more people follow when the new behavior becomes socially normative. Of course, there will always be people who stay resistant either for personal or political reasons, or sheer stupidity. And there will always be negligence. So no law is going to prevent ALL accidents. I think gun control advocates recognize that a free society means there are no absolutes, but laws can reduce the number of accidents and make people more cognizant of their actions. I am an advocate of laws that change people's behavior when it's in the interest of public safety. I also believe that regulation won't be successful without education.

 

[wfgodot]

Sorry if already posted....

The inside story of how an Idaho toddler shot his mom at Wal-Mart (Washington Post)

 

[ontheclock]

sbm bbm

Good to find someone here w CCW exp.
Does carrying in a holster around a squirmy toddler make sense? W/you be comfortable doing it? W/you recommend it to others?

If a person wants to carry gun in a purse (w or w/out spec. design) seems, imo, to make sense to keep it on the shoulder.
And, imo, that would be same, w or w/out a toddler. JM2cts.

That's a really good question for ccw holders. Part of the reason I don't conceal and carry. Seems clumsy to me. However I'd feel much more confident and less worried without youngsters. Curious to hear everyone's opinion. I'm honestly not that comfortable around a gun, although there is always one at my disposal and ready to go at home. We just don't touch it much.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

I've been following this thread and I have to say that I am still baffled that someone would carry their gun Into a Walmart....the idea of it just seems so foreign to me! (Obviously I do not own or carry a gun.)

I live approximately 30-45 minutes south of Hayden so I'm fairly familiar with the area - Hayden is a much smaller community than Spokane and I have a couple friends/acquaintances from that area who are equally surprised at this occurrence too. I simply never gave it a thought before.

So sad that this little guy now will live with this awful event for the rest of his life.

 

[Archangel7]

Will a law prevent accidents? Yes, I think so. This isn't an absolutism though. Some (perhaps most) laws and regulations are designed to change behavior. At first, people are often resistant to change but the prospect of a hefty fine or criminal record encourages some to change their behavior. More people follow when they see the new laws aren't so limiting after all. And even more people follow when the new behavior becomes socially normative. Of course, there will always be people who stay resistant either for personal or political reasons, or sheer stupidity. And there will always be negligence. So no law is going to prevent ALL accidents. I think gun control advocates recognize that a free society means there are no absolutes, but laws can reduce the number of accidents and make people more cognizant of their actions. I am an advocate of laws that change people's behavior when it's in the interest of public safety. I also believe that regulation won't be successful without education.

I could almost agree with you but I look at Aus/Canada/US and see the bias. I wouldn't want a politician or other deciding whom they favor and that is exactly how it is in Canada currently. Law says you can carry but a bureaucratic police commish decides who gets the permits. So far almost none, only the privileged and no regress. Not even for wilderness carry in most cases.

Plus I saw problems with the Lyndt fiasco and the Aussie laws around it.

Laws lately in the US tend to reduce freedom rather than expand it. We have become a nation of mediocrity based on the lowest common denominator existing in society and the partisan leverage philosophy.

What law prevents accidents or the free will a person has to THINK for themselves? What specific law would one write to prevent a mistake? an accident?

 

[ontheclock]

For those of us living in unsafe communities, gun rights are a huge deal. Our gun stays in the house, but honestly, we are in more danger on the streets. Just within the past couple of days, a man robbed three people within minutes at a McDonald's drive thru and gas station. Granted, he didn't kill anyone, but who knows what a criminal will do? And why not be prepared to defend yourself? These are places I frequent, and they're not considered the bad part of town.

 

[Archangel7]

That's a really good question for ccw holders. Part of the reason I don't conceal and carry. Seems clumsy to me. However I'd feel much more confident and less worried without youngsters. Curious to hear everyone's opinion. I'm honestly not that comfortable around a gun, although there is always one at my disposal and ready to go at home. We just don't touch it much.

Since no one else has answered...... I feel completely the same as far as with or without a firearm in that it's not clumsy to me. I am aware of my surroundings with or without.

I don't carry a purse so no help there although access to the firearm is a plus so on the shoulder sure seems reasonable to me. Mine would not be much good on the seat of the patrol car with me just outside.
Otherwise I carry different ways and use holsters. Ive never been uncomfortable around kids/toddlers etc. wearing a firearm.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Sorry if already posted....

The inside story of how an Idaho toddler shot his mom at Wal-Mart (Washington Post)

OK ..

Rutledge isn’t just sad — he’s angry. Not at his grandson. Nor at his dead daughter-in-law, “who didn’t have a malicious fiber in her body,” he said. He’s angry at the observers already using the accident as an excuse to grandstand on gun rights.

“They are painting Veronica as irresponsible, and that is not the case,” he said. “… I brought my son up around guns, and he has extensive experience shooting it. And Veronica had had hand gun classes; they’re both licensed to carry, and this wasn’t just some purse she had thrown her gun into.”

Yes, be angry at us, not at the fact that his daughter in law felt the need to carry a gun every time she left the house, not at the fact that the family obsession around guns led to her death, not at the child who reached inside the purse, pulled out the gun, took aim at the mother, and shot her clean in the head (on that note, I guess the child had had the opportunity to play with guns leading up to this incident, get that gun training in early right?).

“They carried one every day of their lives, and they shot extensively,” Rutledge said. “They loved it. Odd as it may sound, we are gun people.”
...........

Sandow told The Post she often sees people with a gun cradled at their side. “In Idaho, we don’t have to worry about a lot of crime and things like that,” she said. “And to see someone with a gun isn’t bizarre. [Veronica] wasn’t carrying a gun because she felt unsafe. She was carrying a gun because she was raised around guns. This was just a horrible accident.”

If she wasn't worried about crime, why in the flipping heck did she carry the gun into Walmart when she had 4 kids with her? WTF!!!! You know what killed her, is the stupid gun culture obsession, I mean you spend all your spare time around guns and carry one everywhere you go, then yes, your chances of being killed by one do go up.

I hope the father 'Colt' (not made up, that really is his name) learns something from this and broadens his child's horizons beyond the gun culture it seems he was brought up with.

Thanks for the article Wfgodot. The comments aren't bad either, even though they've well and truly surpassed the 4000 mark.

 

[ontheclock]

Since no one else has answered...... I feel completely the same as far as with or without a firearm in that it's not clumsy to me. I am aware of my surroundings with or without.

I don't carry a purse so no help there although access to the firearm is a plus so on the shoulder sure seems reasonable to me. Mine would not be much good on the seat of the patrol car with me just outside.
Otherwise I carry different ways and use holsters. Ive never been uncomfortable around kids/toddlers etc. wearing a firearm.

Thanks for answering. Do you know many women, outside of LE, who carry? What is their usual method? I probably just need more experience handling/carrying a gun. I'm not comfortable with it yet. I worry about how I would react in a home invasion sometimes. That gun is a powerful thing. But I'm definitely not willing to give it up. I've been in fear for my life before.

 

[Archangel7]

I've been following this thread and I have to say that I am still baffled that someone would carry their gun Into a Walmart....the idea of it just seems so foreign to me! (Obviously I do not own or carry a gun.)

I live approximately 30-45 minutes south of Hayden so I'm fairly familiar with the area - Hayden is a much smaller community than Spokane and I have a couple friends/acquaintances from that area who are equally surprised at this occurrence too. I simply never gave it a thought before.

So sad that this little guy now will live with this awful event for the rest of his life.

Google Sue Hupp. Listen to her anguish about leaving her gun in the car at Luby's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis

 

[Archangel7]

Thanks for answering. Do you know many women, outside of LE, who carry? What is their usual method? I probably just need more experience handling/carrying a gun. I'm not comfortable with it yet. I worry about how I would react in a home invasion sometimes. That gun is a powerful thing. But I'm definitely not willing to give it up. I've been in fear for my life before.

Most women carry in their purse. It's a bad idea and the gun gets powder, makeup, etc all in it.
Get trained and familiar with your choice of handgun. Understand fully the responsibilities and the lethal force continuum.
Must be a threat to the innocent...you didn't instigate
a threat due to disparity of size or disability.
immediate and unavoidable etc etc etc. for an example.