ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

[Paulette]

It's unfair to other shoppers that she had that gun in SOMEONE ELSE'S store. She was irresponsible to leave the purse with the gun inside for the boy to have access to. She was responsible & If I were Walmart, I'd sue her estate for every penny I could get.

 

[MyBelle]

It's unfair to other shoppers that she had that gun in SOMEONE ELSE'S store. She was irresponsible to leave the purse with the gun inside for the boy to have access to. She was responsible & If I were Walmart, I'd sue her estate for every penny I could get.

What are the grounds to sue the estate of a dead woman for owning a gun that killed her, not other shoppers?

 

[LinasK]

Yet another example of the craziness that has developed in this country. If something like this would have happened 35-40 ish years ago when I was a child, there would have been outrage: why was a woman carrying a gun in her purse? a loaded gun? where a 2 year old could get it? Now, nope, it's all about the crazy brainwashing/rhetoric/politics that has developed when it comes to guns and every ones "rights" to carry around a damn deadly weapon. Every day that goes by I fear more and more for my children growing up in a country that is apparently going backwards instead of forwards when it comes to being civilized. Seriously, this s*** scares the hell out of me.

BBM. I totally agree. And this woman was booksmart but not street smart. i.e common sense!!!

 

[K_Z]

This is a tragic, wrenchingly sad accident.

But what I keep coming to, is what can we learn from this? I don't think this case should be used as an example/ index case to rally for more private ownership restrictions. But I also think it will be.

From what I've read, this woman was a highly skilled and knowledgeable gun owner. She was reportedly accustomed to carrying concealed on a regular basis. But therein lies the rub.

When a deadly weapon becomes as much a part of your day/ existence as your cell phone and wallet, AND you deviate from body carry holster to "remote" carry purse, the scene is set, IMO, for complacency to override vigilance. I'm concerned that comfort/ complacency, along with distraction, is what produced the circumstances that lead to her 2 yo accessing and firing the weapon.

In health care, as in many other professions, an after action debriefing is common and routine, so that mishaps can be examined, and learned from. In the medical field, these "morbidity and mortality" reviews/ meetings historically were an opportunity to "name, blame, & shame." But over the decades, we have learned that M & M should truly be a learning opportunity, along with CQI (continuous quality improvement, versus "quality assurance").

So I am struggling with where the learning opportunity is here, versus "name, blame, & shame". I do think distraction and complacency, along with a break in routine (the new concealed carry gift purse) set the scene for this to occur.

How do we shape the discussion into one that will produce real awareness of the problems associated with complacency, distraction, and breaks in routine, versus the louder din of "make laws to take all the guns away?" I don't know the answer to this.

We own many handguns and long guns in our family, and my family is what I would describe as highly responsible where gun safety is concerned. I am a military veteran with 17+ years of active duty and reserve experience, and I can very competently fire various weapons. Several folks in my family and extended family have concealed weapon permits, but NEVER carry. I have very mixed feelings about the need/ compulsion/ desire/ obsession some folks feel to carry every single day of their lives, in every environment and circumstance, versus identifying high risk situations where carrying makes sense.

I think this was a horribly tragic accident, but I also believe that distraction, complacency, and change in routine set in motion the conditions for this accident to occur. That isn't disrespecting the dead woman, IMO-- it's a thoughtful analysis of what happened. I hope somehow that this situation can be used to highlight the dangers of distraction, complacency, and change in routine, because that's the takeaway message, IMO.

 

[LinasK]

OK here is the thing, why in the helicopter can't there be more regulations (YES OMG LAWS) in regards to the ownership / carrying of guns etc.

Say someone has the right to carry a concealed weapon as this lady appears to have had, why is it OK for her to let the gun float around in her handbag? Wouldn't it be better to make it illegal for her to carry a concealed weapon unless it was secured to her person in a holster?

See look, it makes me sick to think of random people wandering about in public with guns on them, I admit it, but if people MUST why can't they do it in the safest way possible, I mean you don't see the police reaching into a backpack for a weapon because they have them strapped to their person at all times, well it should be the same for these people who have a licence to carry a gun.

I think when it comes to gun ownership it's the LOOSENESS of the laws that bothers people the most and the lack of regulation.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Only we no longer need a well regulated militia, we've got the military and police!!! And I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious!

 

[LinasK]

"Ruteledge had a bag similar to the one pictured here, specially designed to conceal a weapon (file image of a bag..."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...gift-better-conceal-weapon.html#ixzz3NVmTVtSw

OMG!!! That's no holster, it's just a purse with a zippered compartment any 2-year old could open.

 

[LinasK]

So you would have laws passed to legislate common sense for a parent? Would you have the Government monitor parents and have punitive actions against a parent being mistaken? Or would you just have Gov. ban all mistakes? Or just have the Gov/ seize and raise all kids after birth?

I am, or was a Police firearm instructor, not current now. Why should my RIGHTS be restricted because someone else has an accident or makes a mistake? Once that precedent is set..........where do we look next to right a perceived wrong?

You need a license to drive a car, why shouldn't we have the same restrictions on guns???

 

[LinasK]

I pretty much agree. I believe one must have care and control of that firearm 100% of the time. That tends to work better when it's attached to oneself.

I carry a pocket knife but if kids start frisking me for gum and candy I prevent them from getting near that pocket.
However if I was to have it in a pouch and had th pouch in a shopping cart, I hardly have 100% care and control of that pocket knife.

I have harped to my family and my direct reports over the years to not walk around this planet in MENTAL NEUTRAL.
Keep your wits about you and what is going on around you.

I recommend that type purse for women to CC but it's not much good to you if you need it and it's in a cart next aisle over. Those type purses are made for shoulder carry.

Tragically she ended up in a situation where the purse(gun) was close to the child. Not really different than leaving a box of matches or a butane lighter next to a child.

Similar....Try consoling a dad that just backed over his toddler with the car. Yes, all the same cliches apply, shoulda, coulda, woulda......

People make mistakes, sometimes tragic ones. They are almost always preventable.

And I refuse to allow a gun in my house, I made my husband give up his gun when he moved in with me- I gave him an ultimatum- his gun or me, but he wouldn't force me to live with a gun, he chose me! I prefer a large dog and a baseball bat and knives for our home protection.

 

[LinasK]

Driving is a privilege extended by the State PSC, not a true right.
I know guns that are designed as target guns. To say all guns are designed to target practice is the same illogical blanket statement you are using about guns are designed to kill.

Tools are used as one sees fit to use them.

So who do we crucify over this accident?

The mother. I nominate her for the Darwin Award.

 

[Donjeta]

My point is that there are consequences for what you describe. people are prosecuted when laws are broken.
I don't think anyone does get a pass.
She made a mistake, paid with her life. What more do you want? Put her husband in jail?

I just wish this would stop... That people would stop being so damn casual about lethal weapons that they leave them unattended in shopping carts where anyone can grab them. That people would stop making excuses for people who do this. "It's just a tragic accident, she just made a mistake, these things happen, you can't outlaw accidents..."

People who leave guns for children to shoot themselves or each other get passes all the time. "Oh this was just a tragic accident, no charges are expected..."

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...11/10/autopsy-done-detroit-boy-shot/18791131/

Detroit police Sgt. Michael Woody said the boy found a gun, “was playing with it and shot himself, sustaining a fatal wound.”

It is unclear how the boy got the weapon or why no one appeared to be watching the children.

“There are no charges pending right now and we don’t anticipate any,” Woody said.

It’s the third time in less than two weeks that a Detroit child was shot after finding an unsecured gun in their home. Both of those children survived.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/kentucky-accidential-shooting/

-- A Kentucky mother stepped outside of her home just for a few minutes, but it was long enough for her 5-year-old son to accidentally shoot and kill his 2-year-old sister with the .22-caliber rifle he got for his birthday, state officials said.
The shooting that took the life of Caroline Sparks in southern Kentucky has been ruled an accident, Kentucky State Police Trooper Billy Gregory said.

I want this to be a crime. This woman died, she can't be prosecuted any more. But there are plenty of other people who put children in danger by their casual indifference about where and how their tools for inflicting death on people are kept. I want to live in a world where you don't just step away and leave toddlers and kindergarteners alone to play with their guns and call it "a quick thing that happens when you turn your back". You just can't turn your back on kids with guns. Just stop calling these things tragic accidents and give them their real name. Usually it was no accident that the kid got access to the gun. It's accidental if you're cleaning your gun and have a falling accident before you can put it away and that's why kids find it. But if you voluntarily leave things lying about near kids although you could just as easily put them away if you just cared enough to bother it's no accident, it's negligence and child endangerment.

And no one's right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is in any way threatened by pointing this out.

 

[sonjay]

You need a license to drive a car, why shouldn't we have the same restrictions on guns???

Anti-gun people always like to use this analogy. Personally, I'm against requiring people to have a license for guns, but if we were going to do that, I would be in favor of licensing in the same way driver licenses work.

1. You don't need a license of any sort to own a car, only to drive one on public roadways. So no license would be required to own any gun, only to carry one in public.

2. Driver's licenses from all states are recognized as valid in all 50 states plus the District of Columbia. So, only one "gun license" would be required to be legal to carry in all 50 states plus D.C.

3. The minimum age to get a driver's license ranges from 14 to 18. So, depending on the state, 14- to 18-year-olds could get a gun license permitting them to carry a gun. No more of this "you must be 21 to buy a handgun or ammunition for a handgun."

4. No background check, fingerprinting or waiting period is required to get a driver's license. I'd like to see the same for guns.

5. There are no arbitrary and capricious limits on engine size, fuel tank size, maximum potential speed, or prohibitions on automatic transmissions. So, there would be no arbitrary and capricious limits or prohibitions on specific calibers, magazine size, or auto fire capability.

6. Mufflers are not only permitted but required on cars, to reduce noise. So, the use of sound suppressors to reduce noise would be at least permitted.

7. People don't call for banning cars or enacting more legal restrictions on cars every time someone does something dumb that causes an injury or death. (People do rightfully call for stricter enforcement of existing rules.) So, everyone would stop demanding that guns be banned or more strictly regulated every time someone does something dumb with a gun.

8. Driving, while not a Constitutional right, is viewed by many people as one and is generally treated by the states as one, with "shall issue" driver's license procedures. We don't allow a sheriff or police chief to arbitrarily decide if someone is allowed to get a driver's license; if a person can pass the driver's license test, they get their driver's license. Also, their license won't be taken away unless and until they break enough driving laws to justify taking away their license. And renewing a driver's license is simple and inexpensive. So, gun licenses would all be shall-issue, and sheriffs and police chiefs would not have the ability to arbitrarily decide who gets to have one, and renewing them would be simple and inexpensive.

9. In all states and cities, getting a driver's license is not dependent on the applicant demonstrating an actual "need" for one. So, no states would require that anyone demonstrate an actual "need" to carry a gun in order for the applicant to qualify for a license. There wouldn't be cities where having a license is limited to the elite of the city (like Howard Stern in NYC) but where no average person is ever able to get a license no matter how qualified they are.`

10. You can freely transport your car across state lines, drive it across state lines as long as you have a valid license, and sell it to someone in another state. I'd like to see the same for guns.

11. There are no silly laws anywhere requiring that cars be kept with an empty fuel tank except when in actual use, and that fuel has to be stored separately from the car.

I could go on..... Yes, let's license guns the way we license cars. I oppose gun licensing, but we'd really be better off under such a scheme.

 

[Donjeta]

OK ..

Rutledge isn’t just sad — he’s angry. Not at his grandson. Nor at his dead daughter-in-law, “who didn’t have a malicious fiber in her body,” he said. He’s angry at the observers already using the accident as an excuse to grandstand on gun rights.

“They are painting Veronica as irresponsible, and that is not the case,” he said. “… I brought my son up around guns, and he has extensive experience shooting it. And Veronica had had hand gun classes; they’re both licensed to carry, and this wasn’t just some purse she had thrown her gun into.”

Yes, be angry at us, not at the fact that his daughter in law felt the need to carry a gun every time she left the house, not at the fact that the family obsession around guns led to her death, not at the child who reached inside the purse, pulled out the gun, took aim at the mother, and shot her clean in the head (on that note, I guess the child had had the opportunity to play with guns leading up to this incident, get that gun training in early right?).

“They carried one every day of their lives, and they shot extensively,” Rutledge said. “They loved it. Odd as it may sound, we are gun people.”
...........

Sandow told The Post she often sees people with a gun cradled at their side. “In Idaho, we don’t have to worry about a lot of crime and things like that,” she said. “And to see someone with a gun isn’t bizarre. [Veronica] wasn’t carrying a gun because she felt unsafe. She was carrying a gun because she was raised around guns. This was just a horrible accident.”

If she wasn't worried about crime, why in the flipping heck did she carry the gun into Walmart when she had 4 kids with her? WTF!!!! You know what killed her, is the stupid gun culture obsession, I mean you spend all your spare time around guns and carry one everywhere you go, then yes, your chances of being killed by one do go up.

I hope the father 'Colt' (not made up, that really is his name) learns something from this and broadens his child's horizons beyond the gun culture it seems he was brought up with.

Thanks for the article Wfgodot. The comments aren't bad either, even though they've well and truly surpassed the 4000 mark.

I suppose not having grown up in this culture I will never truly understand... Because he says she was not irresponsible but his words paint the very picture of irresponsibility to me...

“They are painting Veronica as irresponsible, and that is not the case,” he said. “… I brought my son up around guns, and he has extensive experience shooting it. And Veronica had had hand gun classes; they’re both licensed to carry, and this wasn’t just some purse she had thrown her gun into.”

Veronica, 29, arrived at a nearby Wal-Mart in Hayden with her three nieces and son, her gun “zippered closed” inside her new purse, her father-in-law said. Then, in the back of the store, near the electronics section, the purse was left unattended for a moment.

“An inquisitive 2-year-old boy reached into the purse, unzipped the compartment, found the gun and shot his mother in the head,” Rutledge said. “It’s a terrible, terrible incident.”

Even if the purse was bought from a gun bag store and they said the compartment was designed for carrying a gun it's clear that it was not designed as a child proof compartment. Any mother knows that two-year-olds can open zippers and even if they can't today kids that age learn something new every day and might figure out how tomorrow.

So leaving such a purse casually unattended within the reach of a two-year-old is an extremely irresponsible thing to do imo. Yeah, everyone can have a moment of inattention but I think you are more likely to if you're around guns every day and become complacent and forget they're in fact deadly weapons?

If the bag marketers lead people to believe that this wasn't "just some purse" but a bag that would provide enough protection between an inquisitive two-year old and a lethal loaded weapon they might need to be charged too...

 

[Sonya610]

If the bag marketers lead people to believe that this wasn't "just some purse" but a bag that would provide enough protection between an inquisitive two-year old and a lethal loaded weapon they might need to be charged too...

I am certain the bag manufacturer did NOT claim the bag prevented all others from accessing the weapon. How could it? It is made of leather and cloth! Some do have little locks which would have prevented a 2 year old or anyone else from opening the compartment without cutting/damaging the bag but it is NOT a safe.

There are EIGHT MILLION people with CCW permits in the US; this story made the national news because it is so unusual and also because it fits the agenda of anti-gun groups.

 

[wfgodot]

This story made the news because a two-year-old child shot its parent dead because of an accessible death weapon.

 

[Donjeta]

I am certain the bag manufacturer did NOT claim the bag prevented all others from accessing the weapon. How could it? It is made of leather and cloth! Some do have little locks which would have prevented a 2 year old or anyone else from opening the compartment without cutting/damaging the bag but it is NOT a safe.

There are EIGHT MILLION people with CCW permits in the US; this story made the national news because it is so unusual and also because it fits the agenda of anti-gun groups.

Yes, that's what I think too. It's just some purse that provides no protection from children getting access. Thus not at all the sort of thing that should contain a deadly weapon and be within the reach of a child.

Sadly the story is not unusual at all, there are plenty of cases of children "accidentally" getting their hands on lethal weapons and deaths occurring as a consequence. And I'm sure many more cases where the same sort of negligence happened every day but they don't make the news because nobody died.

Being against children shooting their mothers should fit in everybody's agenda I think.

 

[stormshine]

Purses are a really bad way to concealed carry, unless that purse never leaves your shoulder outside your own home or car. I'm pretty sure she broke the law the instant she set her purse down in the cart and stepped away from it. I wonder how many other times she'd done something like that while carrying, such as setting her purse down beside her at a restaurant.

I am a supporter of concealed carry, but I also think that part of getting that permit should be understanding that carrying a loaded weapon in public means taking on an extra level of personal responsibility. It shouldn't be "oh, she made a mistake".

In this case, her lack of responsibility only harmed herself. If the child had shot himself or another passerby? I would have supported jail time.

 

[Sonya610]

Sadly the story is not unusual at all, there are plenty of cases of children "accidentally" getting their hands on lethal weapons and deaths occurring as a consequence.

Getting at weapons in their own home yes, but a kid accessing a concealed weapon in a Walmart store and causing a fatality??

That is unusual and it poses a risk to EVERYONE in the store, not just the mother. I can't think of another similar case (but I am sure if it has happened, child accesses concealed carry gun in a store and shoots) then others here will post about it.

The mother was HIGHLY irresponsible, if she survived I would have wanted to see her do prison time. This is the type of stupidity that causes problems for all OTHER gun owners.

 

[leah]

I haven't and never will understand owning a gun. I have never even touched a gun, but that is my choice. I don't expect anyone to understand, and since I don't understand people's urges to have guns, I'm not here trying to take your guns away. I can't help but keep thinking about that little boy and his cousins, and every other child or adult in that store who saw all this happened. Maybe for some, therapy may help, but not for everyone, and the knowledge when the little guy grows up and what happened, how do you ever get over something like that. I couldn't ever get over that, I know myself, and if I saw that happen, it would take a very long time for me to go anywhere. Not only is this woman dead, but all the lives destroyed in mere seconds. I can't imagine me with a purse with a loaded gun sitting in a shopping cart. I get startled easily, and would be afraid I would reach down by my purse not thinking, and the gun would go off and kill someone. There are several reasons why I refuse to own a gun, but one of the main reasons, a person like me is really doing society a favor by not owning one. If I killed someone by mistake because I did something stupid with a gun in my purse, I would never, ever forgive myself.

 

[Sonya610]

I'm pretty sure she broke the law the instant she set her purse down in the cart and stepped away from it. I wonder how many other times she'd done something like that while carrying, such as setting her purse down beside her at a restaurant.

I live in a safe town but even without a gun in the bag I don't leave my purse in the cart, you never know who could walk by when your back is turned. When carrying in a restaurant I would just loop the bag strap over my leg under the table.

And yes, I am sure the baby dug through her purse before, she probably assumed he wouldn't notice the side compartment. Reports say she always used a body holster before and just got the carry handbag for xmas.

 

[Donjeta]

Getting at weapons in their own home yes, but a kid accessing a concealed weapon in a Walmart store and causing a fatality??

That is unusual and it poses a risk to EVERYONE in the store, not just the mother. I can't think of another similar case (but I am sure if it has happened, child accesses concealed carry gun in a store and shoots) then others here will post about it.

The mother was HIGHLY irresponsible, if she survived I would have wanted to see her do prison time. This is the type of stupidity that causes problems for all OTHER gun owners.

Yeah, agreed. Not just problems for gun owners either, problems for anybody in the vicinity. Anyone could have been the victim, and many were exposed to a very traumatic situation.

The average children spend more time at home than shopping so a lot of kids' accidents happen at home. Then I think most people probably guard their stuff more closely at stores than at home because they don't want their wallet stolen...Most women don't have their purse close on their person all the time when they're at home even if they keep it so in the stores. So if a woman stores her handgun in her zippered purse the chances might be better that the kids get into it while she left it in the hall and went to put the groceries away.