ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 57

[SecretAgentMan]

I still think the victims were stabbed in the order in which the judge read the names and charges for their murders. She started with burglary then
Maddie Mogen
Kaylee Goncalves
Xana Kernodle
Ethan Chapin

BUT i think Xana was still alive and wounded. He stopped “early” with her when he noticed Ethan in the bed. Then he goes back to crying Xana abd says don’t worry I’ll help you and uses the knife until she’s dead. He may have lifted her off the floor and said don’t worry I’ll help you to her face and she whimpered and then he threw her against the wall (the thud) then the final stabs and or slashes. Her room was pretty small so her body could have hit the wall and still been found lying where it was.

The perp is a big guy & from the pictures ive seen, Xana is the most petite & smallest of the girls in the house, 5ft 3 & 112 pounds. So you can surmise what possibly happened.

 

[thoughts101]

“A short time later, D.M. said she heard who she thought was Goncalves say something to the effect of "there's someone here." A review of records obtained from a forensic download of Kerodle's phone showed this could also have been Kernodle as her cellular phone indicated she was likely awake and using the TikTok app at approximately 4:12a.m. D.M. stated she looked out of her bedroom but did not see anything when she heard the comment about someone being in the house.” - Affidavit.

Interesting that the affidavit interprets “There’s someone here.” as to someone being in the house itself. It’s entirely possible that whoever said that may have seen someone or some car park outside. If someone parked on my property or closely walked past my window I would say the same thing.

Jmo

I think this is most likely stated as being an intruder in the house due to the timing of the food delivery at 4am, the perp seen to be parking outside at around 4.04am, and period of time that DM's statement covers which is after the attack upstairs has begun or ended, and up until around 4.12am which is the latest time of the Tiktok use, and the fact that the person who said it was themselves in the house/here, all according to the affidavit. Although I think it is an assumption to an extent by the affidavit, what makes you think it could be a reference to something occuring outside of the house, given the timing of the evidence and the location of the victims?

 

[Sundog]

Just watching Fox News and Ted Williams said Xana and Ethan were killed first and that we still don’t know who the target(s) were but they wouldn’t have needed to go upstairs if the targets were one or both of those 2.

My own opinion so far is that the house was targeted, and that BK started on the 3rd floor, then went down to the 2nd floor.

But Ted Williams' remarks remind me of Kaylee's father, SG, saying that the killer had no reason to go upstairs - assuming that X or E or both were the target.

 

[Helechawagirl]

I still think the victims were stabbed in the order in which the judge read the names and charges for their murders. She started with burglary then
Maddie Mogen
Kaylee Goncalves
Xana Kernodle
Ethan Chapin

BUT i think Xana was still alive and wounded. He stopped “early” with her when he noticed Ethan in the bed. Then he goes back to crying Xana abd says don’t worry I’ll help you and uses the knife until she’s dead. He may have lifted her off the floor and said don’t worry I’ll help you to her face and she whimpered and then he threw her against the wall (the thud) then the final stabs and or slashes. Her room was pretty small so her body could have hit the wall and still been found lying where it was.

Are we 100% certain there was only one killer? If there was someone else there, he could have said that to them…I haven’t seen any evidence, and doubt it, but something seems off to me…my subconscious. Probably nothing.

 

[Cali_mom]

ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 57

A previous poster (hard to keep up, I know) suggested it was BK who said "it's okay, I'm going to help you" to Murphy the dog, which I think (imo) is a great suggestion. That is possible as well. But in discussions earlier in this thread suggest the dog was locked in room the whole time and...

www.websleuths.com

MOO. Perhaps the PCA does not include everything DM heard and saw that night. Maybe it only included enough info to enable them to obtain the arrest warrant. If so, whatever else she may have seen/heard caused her to freeze in fright when he walked by her room. MOO.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

Well 16 minutes minus the time to go from the car, into the house, kill 4 people, out of the house back to the car and drive away for someone untrained and in a fluid situation.

1-2 minutes in each room would be plenty of time to kill 3 sleeping people + 1 who was awake.

 

[Sassafrass]

Apologies if this has been asked and answered before, but for attorneys, is there ever a point in working with a defendant that you would say look, this evidence is going to be difficult to contest, and my advice is not to go to trial? Or is it a matter of doing whatever the defendant chooses and making sure that they are afforded the procedural protections to which they’re entitled if you aren’t able to offer much of a challenge to the evidence—or something else entirely?

Lawyers evaluate the likelihood of legal success and give their professional, educated opinion on trial vs plea/settle/etc., all the time and it's what they're there for, though the client has (within legal parameters) the ultimate directional decision. In other words, a lawyer has a duty to provide advice when asked and is expected to give a client sufficient pertinent information in order for the client to make a reasonable, context-based decision (if they choose to do so; lots of clients ignore their lawyer's advice! & if a client decides to, for example, go to trial in a crim case against advice, a lawyer does basically just have to live with it and put on a legitimate defense).

Spoiler: Professional Responsibility Rules/Commentary

1. Lawyers must communicate pertinent information to a client: Model rules of professional responsibility (states may have tweaks or variations) text:

Client-Lawyer Relationship​

(a) A lawyer shall:

(1) promptly inform the client of any decision or circumstance with respect to which the client's informed consent, as defined in Rule 1.0(e), is required by these Rules;
(2) reasonably consult with the client about the means by which the client's objectives are to be accomplished;
(3) keep the client reasonably informed about the status of the matter;
(4) promptly comply with reasonable requests for information; and
(5) consult with the client about any relevant limitation on the lawyer's conduct when the lawyer knows that the client expects assistance not permitted by the Rules of Professional Conduct or other law.
(b) A lawyer shall explain a matter to the extent reasonably necessary to permit the client to make informed decisions regarding the representation.

Generally, per the Comment to the rule, "The client should have sufficient information to participate intelligently in decisions concerning the objectives of the representation and the means by which they are to be pursued, to the extent the client is willing and able to do so."

2. Lawyers must give candid professional advice to clients when asked. As counselor, model rule 2.1:

Counselor​

In representing a client, a lawyer shall exercise independent professional judgment and render candid advice. In rendering advice, a lawyer may refer not only to law but to other considerations such as moral, economic, social and political factors, that may be relevant to the client's situation.

Comment to 2.1 expands: "[1] A client is entitled to straightforward advice expressing the lawyer's honest assessment. Legal advice often involves unpleasant facts and alternatives that a client may be disinclined to confront. In presenting advice, a lawyer endeavors to sustain the client's morale and may put advice in as acceptable a form as honesty permits. However, a lawyer should not be deterred from giving candid advice by the prospect that the advice will be unpalatable to the client."

The comments also note that it may be necessary to provide advice that extends beyond the literal letter of the law, in order to help the client evaluate the situation in context (legal, social, moral, etc.).

3. Ultimately, it is the client's decision to go forward with a trial or to testify and if so elected a lawyer must do their best given the client's decision and how it shakes out - model rule 1.2:

Client-Lawyer Relationship
(a) Subject to paragraphs (c) and (d), a lawyer shall abide by a client's decisions concerning the objectives of representation and, as required by Rule 1.4, shall consult with the client as to the means by which they are to be pursued. A lawyer may take such action on behalf of the client as is impliedly authorized to carry out the representation. A lawyer shall abide by a client's decision whether to settle a matter. In a criminal case, the lawyer shall abide by the client's decision, after consultation with the lawyer, as to a plea to be entered, whether to waive jury trial and whether the client will testify.

4. As far as how an attorney will meet that obligation, under Rule 3.1, a lawyer has obligations to not present frivolous claims, etc., though there are separate sets of obligations to defend in criminal cases trump the rules:

[Comment to 3.1]:
"[1]The advocate has a duty to use legal procedure for the fullest benefit of the client's cause, but also a duty not to abuse legal procedure.[...]
[...]
[3] The lawyer's obligations under this Rule are subordinate to federal or state constitutional law that entitles a defendant in a criminal matter to the assistance of counsel in presenting a claim or contention that otherwise would be prohibited by this Rule."

 

[Kurzz10]

“A short time later, D.M. said she heard who she thought was Goncalves say something to the effect of "there's someone here." A review of records obtained from a forensic download of Kerodle's phone showed this could also have been Kernodle as her cellular phone indicated she was likely awake and using the TikTok app at approximately 4:12a.m. D.M. stated she looked out of her bedroom but did not see anything when she heard the comment about someone being in the house.” - Affidavit.

Interesting that the affidavit interprets “There’s someone here.” as to someone being in the house itself. It’s entirely possible that whoever said that may have seen someone or some car park outside. If someone parked on my property or closely walked past my window I would say the same thing.

Jmo

I wonder if this could have been Kaylee down to Xana?

 

[blackbeary]

I believe that KG’s dad spoke about the unconscious person here

‘There’s so much intrigue’: Analyst on Idaho timeline

“You got to remember these two girls were so upset that when they went outside after seeing this,” Goncalves reportedly told the outlet.

www.newsnationnow.com

 

[thoughts101]

where exactly does it state order of deaths in the PCA?

It doesn't. However, if you follow the sequence of events that is being described in the PCA, I believe the sequence alleged by the police is at least KG/MM on the third floor, followed by X/E on the second. The specific order of the deaths that I set out is my opinion, all IMO, given some of the other facts described in the PCA.

 

[Muddy K]

I will hazard a guess he admires Ted Bundy--

IMO, I don't believe he admires anybody. I think his actions, as alleged, make that abundantly clear. I perceive him as being quite solipsistic, the self-appointed ruler of a world of his own making, where everyone else is beneath him.

 

[Brunette]

I just thought of something: it makes sense to me, living in a party house, that the women would always keep their doors locked. I always did when I lived in residence in Uni.

DM kept her door shut and locked.

Likely, if Xana had been in bed, she'd have had her door shut for privacy and, IIRC, it would have automatically locked. IMO, she was up eating elsewhere, so it was open and BK barely prevented her from shutting it in his face.

Maddie's door evidently wasn't locked. Was that normal? Was it because KG was there and they left the door open because it's a cramped room for two? On the other hand, with them talking, shutting the door would be natural to prevent the noise from waking others up.

Sadly, if only Maddie's door had been locked...

I honestly don’t think any of them initially had their bedroom doors locked that night. Having locks to use just in case there’s a party still raging at the house and you want to go to sleep (or do other things…) without worrying about random people barging in, sure. But i get the sense that these girls felt safe enough in the neighborhood and with each other that they might not have been vigilant about locking every single night unless there was some reason to. And that night in particular had been a quieter one at the house (in terms of no friends over late in common areas, etc.). Who knows, though.

 

[Zella]

The order in the PCA is detective language. It's not an analysis of who was killed first etc.

It's the order in which he is walking through the house making observations. It isn't based on the order in which they were killed. It's based on the order who he observed first, second, third and last.

Except per his narrative he saw Xana first and then Ethan. And even the initial reports for 911 talk about how the bodies found on the second floor were seen first and then they discovered the bodies upstairs. I don't see how any of the detectives saw M or K first to justify listing them first. MOO

 

[blackbeary]

Can you send to me please.

‘There’s so much intrigue’: Analyst on Idaho timeline

“You got to remember these two girls were so upset that when they went outside after seeing this,” Goncalves reportedly told the outlet.

www.newsnationnow.com

 

[thoughts101]

The order in the PCA is detective language. It's not an analysis of who was killed first etc.

It's the order in which he is walking through the house making observations. It isn't based on the order in which they were killed. It's based on the order who he observed first, second, third and last.

I do not agree that the order of the deaths cannot be determined. The PCA is written chronologically from the POV of the police officer as you note since it is a witness statement of course, but the evidence described in the affidavit provides for a sequence of events - i.e. noises are heard upstairs first, the noises heard downstairs, the direction of travel of the perp from X's room, the timing of the CCTV recordings, the timings of the Tiktok usage.

 

[gizmobtj]

Indeed. He means the only bed in the room, surely, given there were two bodies. It could be without this qualification, two bodies in two separate beds.

Um. He could have written that they were "in a bed" in the room without the word single and it would meant the same thing. If it were two, he could have written "in beds" in the room. Anyway, look at the layout, where the door is and opens, where the sliding glass doors are. Imagine a bookshelf and a dresser. And, then, imagine the size of the bed you could fit in that room. I think it's smaller than most people think

Blueprints show where each Idaho student was found stabbed to death

Unearthed blueprints and layout plans of the off-campus house where four Idaho college students were brutally stabbed to death reveal where each of the friends were found slain earlier this month.

www.google.com

 

[gizmobtj]

I do not agree that the order of the deaths cannot be determined. The PCA is written chronologically from the POV of the police officer as you note since it is a witness statement of course, but the evidence described in the affidavit provides for a sequence of events - i.e. noises are heard upstairs first, the noises heard downstairs, the direction of travel of the perp from X's room, the timing of the CCTV recordings, the timings of the Tiktok usage.

It could be surmised through blood mixtures

 

[10ofRods]

If he did indeed go to Mad Greek which i think he did. I’m thinking Maddie and Xana were nice to him as waitresses should be. (Always be nice to the customers. The customer is always right.)

So he jumped to the conclusion that they liked him LIKED him liked him, and when they declined his advances, he became enraged. They may have both simply said sorry i have a boyfriend, and in his mind he thought well you’re always flirting with me! His twisted mind mistook kind waitressing for flirting. He then became obsessed but still played it cool at the restaurant then the rest is history. A sad sad tragic history

I think Mad Greek is still shut down

Google maps says it's open. Was it shut down for break? I bet students are starting to come back now.

I agree that he could have gone there without staff recognizing/remembering him. If he went only when X or M was working (due to some fixation), then the rest of staff might not even have interacted with him much. At any rate, many businesses tell employees to remain silent about recognizing patrons as criminals. And of course they would have a clean pan to cook vegan felafel in, it's an ordinary thing to ask in a college town restaurant. Chopped vegetables, falafel prepared in its own little pan, most vegans are willing to compromise as long as the pan itself was clean of meat products. Some restaurants have green-handled pans just for this purpose.

I can also imagine that he found the human contact that some restaurants provide to be a comforting thing, in his lonely life.

OTOH, I am not married to this theory - LE would know quite a bit about whether he'd ever been near that part of town. It's possible he just saw the neighborhood, observed at parties, and noticed them and the "fishbowl" house.

 

[CrownCowboy1]

Regarding the sheath, I have seen multiple posts discussing it.

I have owned many knives and sheaths of all types and sizes. With my experience, I can count on one hand how many times I actually wore a sheath hooked to my belt, even for smaller knives. With that said, I have worn horizontal sheaths for foldable pocket knives I've carried in the past. But even those I have not used for awhile.

A knife the size of what BK used that night would be extremely hard to maneuver with and unless the sheath was used a lot, it wouldn't be all that easy to take the knife out from it quickly in my opinion either. I also can't envision it coming off of his belt easily. I would figure he would leave the actual knife behind accidentally than his sheath had he indeed had his sheath attached to his belt.

It's kind of an odd circumstance. It's hard to imagine him taking the knife out of the sheath right before the attack without being just utterly stupid. But it's also hard to imagine the sheath coming off his belt.

I guess he's not as smart as some thinks he is. Just my opinion.

 

[Abigail]

I'm sure someone here probably figured this out already (don't have time to wade through all the posts), but I was wondering about the "USMC" on the knife sheath and if BK's father or someone was in the Marines. But I checked, and that exact sheath is available on ebay for $14.43. So, unlikely that he would have purchased it locally. They also sell a variety of knives.