ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 16

[powpow]

Incel is a shortened form of involuntary celibate. They are a form of men for lack of a better word. Whom hate women because they for some form or another have never been able to date one or are just not approached by women. So they take their hatred out on women. Elliot Rodger for example.

Could be a perceived betrayal by their mom also. A fantastic example would be an angry boy who is mad at his mother for dying on him who grows into a man hating all women because of his child hood trauma.

 

[autumnal]

Trying to find if Wednesday's vigil / memorial service will be streaming somewhere?

 

[EncyclopediaBrownJr]

My theory from Day 1 was that he was laying in wait inside the house, although I don’t have any sense of whether it was before or after the 2 surviving housemates got home & his entrance was through the unlocked slider. I don’t think there were cameras involved. And my top hiding location suspicion is the 3rd floor common closet. I think he went there to kill everyone. And I think the reason the 1st floor housemates were spared is because something happened make him think he had to ABORT NOW. Right that instant.

All JMHO.

It's possible. My thoughts are that this is the kind of guy that likes to infiltrate under the cover of darkness. He likes the stealth aspect of breaking in and entering while people sleep. Waiting in a closet or a room for the residents to come home takes discipline. If he doesn't have his phone, he's just sitting there....waiting. Like I said, he might have done that but I think he likes what would probably be a rush for him which would be to sneak in while they're home sleeping. For all you video gamers out there, i'm thinking Metal Gear Solid. Stealth. Maneuvering.

 

[webraccoon2234]

Could be a perceived betrayal by their mom also. A fantastic example would be an angry boy who is mad at his mother for dying on him who grows into a man hating all women because of his child hood trauma.

Yep similar to Nicolas Cruz. Prime example of incels. They even hate men that get women easily. Like Elliot targeted “chads and stacys” on his killing spree.

 

[Tillyjames]

It's a small town in Idaho. There's probably plenty of no security houses. I hardly think 4 people were killed just because there were no cameras etc.
This wasn't a random killing, far from it.

MOO.

Agreed. Granted I was in college a bit ago but we had zero security either. Maybe more college apartments have it now, but it’s not anything that really ever crossed your mind at the time.
<modsnip - quoted off-topic post was removed>

 

[whiterhino]

I see. But you were implying it?
Or it was a potential theory?
Anything goes at this point. Although I personally don't think it was random.

Maybe you misinterpreted my post?

I have no theory except to say I don't think it was a random attack.

 

[soobs]

Out out damn spot!!

 

[AngTxGal]

I have been focusing my attention on things we do know about this crime.

We know that it was down in the 20s and the ground was icy and snowy.

We know that the terrain surrounding the home is fairly steep and obscured by flora on the back side and fairly open and level in the front.

We know that the area is very dark at night according to the residents in the neighborhood. They use flashlights to both see and be seen when walking their pets at night.

We think the sliders were illuminated by the Christmas lights hanging over the patio.

The neighborhood itself only has one way in and one way out if traveling by a car.

If the killer escaped by car he would of had to use Taylor rd to flee and i would be very surprised if the police didnt have video of his car that night.

What if he were on foot?

Because of the weather conditions and the terrain he could not of traveled far (maybe a mile or two?) but he could of traveled stealthily due to the limited visability of the area.

I'm thinking the killer would be dressed for the cold and could of worn a heavy coat, ski mask, and gloves, without drawing any suspicions and also concealing a bloody mess of his indoor clothing.

If he was traveling on foot in pitch blackness he could not of been careful with where he was stepping. I think it's likely he would leave behind footprints at least.

By foot or by car I think the police have some evidence indicating what route the killer used to get away.

Knowing what we know I'm inclined to think this was done on foot by someone who lives close by. Someone who understood the physical challenges of getting in and out undetected and the advantages they could exploit to achieve their goal.

I also believe that while this might of been an act of rage. It was not done spontaneously. This was planned out. The grudge might be from months or even year's ago as opposed to something that happened earlier that night.

Anyhow that's my 2 cents of my latest pondering of this.

I too think it is highly likely the perp was on foot and lives close by, for all of the reasons you mentioned and also these-
- watch the house and occupants often
- know the comings and goings of the residence
- get to and from house quickly
- if caught in area would have a reason to be there, near their walking route
- did not cause attention with a new vehicle in the area
- get to and from house safely- in cold icy weather
- get to and from using a familiar route at night
- get out of sight quickly
- clean up quickly
- currently observing the investigative process daily and from nearby

This crime has the feel of Delphi to me, just as brutal, brazen, and planned with a few strategic differences
- used darkness rather than the cover of the woods
- used house layout, speed, surprise rather than a gun for control

The more time that passes the more it seems like a seasoned perp hiding in plain sight.
Maybe they live alone- or their spouse/ roommate works the 11-7 night shift.
No one noticed they were out in the wee hours, watching, and during the murders
No one noticed they came home in bloody clothing
No one noticed they cleaned up and got rid of evidence
No one has noticed the knife described having been owned by this person

Motive? Jealousy, envy, anger, hate, inadequacy?
What about these women in this house is so different than any young women living in a home going to school/work- to make them a target such that others should feel safe? Nothing

Chilling-
IMO/ JMO

 

[Charlot123]

Just food for thought. I’ve had every breed of dog known to man on my farm Georgia. im recently married with 2 dogs similar to K’s. Both labradoodles. I can tell you they are the most protective of dogs that I’ve ever seen..bark at everything (sometimes) but super emotional towards their loved ones.. I’ve always held my other dogs outside but we let these two sleep with us every night. Which ive truly enjoyed. They are super protective of their loved ones. Highly doubt Murphy was in a kennel that night? He was most likely with K or M In the bed. If he was even there. Thoughts?

There are some dogs that carry the genoset for food (incidentally, in the humans the same genoset is responsible for certain types of drinking/hoarding/eating behavior). If the dog has it, no matter how smart she is, the motivation is to get food. And the people are remembered as “easy to get food from”, i.e., friends, or “not so easy”. Not every dog is like this, but I have seen many labs with these traits. In short, it might be not difficult with certain dogs, not all. JMO, happy to be corrected.

I don't think "targeting" the house means serial killer at all, many killers of all kinds, go to known locations for effect not really caring who happens to be there. Robbing a house in an affluent area and killing the occupants is targeting the location not the victims. We don't know if someone connected to the house in the past could have been the reason the house was chosen "targeted". Heck for all we know the killer was angered by the red jeep or wreath on the door, or because there were blondes or sorority members living there. Thus it was a targeted attack. Murder is rarely logical.

Perhaps, since it was a “party house”, the person was kicked out of it/not let in?

 

[ArmChairDet]

I watched a video the other night that showed that parking lot, and I wondered about cameras-evidently no cameras there. It seemed like a logical place to park and walk in.

I listened to someone on Banfield-last name Main, I know he has been mentioned, he is well known. He stated that if one person were more brutally attacked, that would not necessarily indicate that they were the “target”. It could just mean that they were the first attacked, when the killer was most strong, that first burst of adrenaline. As they continued, they could tire and lose the rush that they had. Just food for thought. I’m thinking that the word targeted was misused prematurely. We are hanging onto it like a dog with a bone, and LE isn’t letting go. Like they’re trying ti spin it now.

I also feel like LE isn’t being cagey and withholding. I think like they are just trying to figure out wth happened. Seems like a pretty honest straightforward group. Except Snell lol. And I live in a state where only cops and criminals carry guns. I was unsettled when I watched the neighbor say he is now toting a gun, especially when the town is on edge and people are accusing him of being the guy.

I agree with the targeted view. The other point is that we know so little about the victims past compared to what the police probably know - former disputes, former relationships, jealousy, etc. If there was a target, it could have been any one of them.

 

[Colorado303]

I think there are people who will rent it as it will be "famous". I can't see girls renting it, perhaps guys. I know from personal experience that if there was a murder in the house, you have to legally disclose that on a home that you put up for sale. I think it will be hard to rent or sell initially, but if the owners/sellers want to rent it or sell it, all they have to do is lower the price.

<modsnip - off topic>

Requirements to disclose events that happened in a “stigma property” vary by State. In Colorado there is no duty to disclose and in fact a Seller’s Real Estate Broker can disclose what happened only with the Seller’s consent.

As a licensed CO Realtor I would advise my clients to disclose because chances are the Buyer will find out before closing—better to keep it on the market than fall out of contract and have to put it back on the market. But if the Seller asked me to keep it quiet I’d risk my license by disclosing it.

Don’t know what the law is in Idaho but I think it would be easier to rent or sell that house than say the Watts house. As someone mentioned, there are likely to be some male students who don’t mind or even think it’s “cool”.

 

[accordn2me]

So…. Where was the freaking dog?

If I lived in a house with a dog, and I was going to bed before the other people that lived there came home, I might bring the dog in my room so he wouldn't bark and wake me when others came in later.... but thinking about my dog, he didn't bark at people coming into the house with a key, or just walking in...he barked at the doorbell or at someone knocking.

 

[Shamrock1]

I think there are people who will rent it as it will be "famous". I can't see girls renting it, perhaps guys. I know from personal experience that if there was a murder in the house, you have to legally disclose that on a home that you put up for sale. I think it will be hard to rent or sell initially, but if the owners/sellers want to rent it or sell it, all they have to do is lower the price.

<modsnip - off topic>

For sales: Disclosure of stigma varies by state. Looks in in Idaho, there is no disclosure requirement *unless* the prospective buyer requests it - and even then, the seller has the option to decline the request.

Section 55-2803 – Idaho State Legislature

legislature.idaho.gov

Idaho home buyers in the dark on tragedy within walls, realtors say

idahonews.com

 

[AngTxGal]

i dont believe that's at the king st house. i could be mistaken.

I agree, this isn’t the King Road House… there is a set of outside stairs in the back right.

So if it was taken on Nov 12, where was it taken? What time during the day was it taken?
What other location did they go to where they were all together on that day?

Are K and M wearing the same clothes as the Grub Trucker video? I don’t think so.
When did K come into town?
Could this have been them all together Sat mId day/ early afternoon?
What did they do Friday night?

 

[Warwick7]

This is ridiculous. It’s been more than two weeks. Why can’t they track their phones? There’s no way to college students went to a frat party without cell phones!!

Why do you think they didn't track their phones?? The article tells us: "Only some of the tests have come back at this time.
It's been very critical behind the scenes in helping them narrow it down to identifying the suspect," Painter said of the lab results."

They are narrowing down to identifying the suspect......

"Critical" lab results from Idaho student murders fail to identify killer

Idaho police are still collecting evidence, seizing five cars parked outside the house since the night of the murders.

www-newsweek-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[JohnBull]

Envy.
Here I am sitting in my cheap, but still unaffordable off campus studio apartment with barebones furnishings. Partial scholarship with student loans. Two part time jobs just to be able to afford a treat like a delivery pizza and a six pack once a week. Birds Eye view of of a (to me) upscale spacious house. All are driving nice cars. Always having people over. Laughter. Music.Money to go to bars and clubs and eat out. I’d be spending that on my electric bill. Where’s that other blond girl been lately? So she shows up in a gorgeous Rover this weekend. Over a year of seeing this had taken its toll.
Can’t take their laughter anymore. I need to stop this.
*I know this is rather dramatic, but a possibility none the less.
What’s different this particular weekend? Kaylee’s back in town.

That's very much my take on it as well. Some loser who compares his life with the lives of those vivacious, good-looking college girls, always partying, sexually satisfied, with nothing but the promise of a good life ahead. He has nothing against any of them on a personal level, but as representatives of a group, he loathes them, and might even blame them indirectly for his woeful status. It's not the profile of a psychopath, but of a mass murderer. If he should happen to become suicidal at some point down the road, he might very well go into a public place and start killing people at random. Right now he's not suicidal, and wants to assuage his feelings without getting caught. My opinion only.

 

[TooMuchGun]

If I lived in a house with a dog, and I was going to bed before the other people that lived there came home, I might bring the dog in my room so he wouldn't bark and wake me when others came in later.... but thinking about my dog, he didn't bark at people coming into the house with a key, or just walking in...he barked at the doorbell or at someone knocking.

maybe crated

 

[acutename]

Requirements to disclose events that happened in a “stigma property” vary by State. In Colorado there is no duty to disclose and in fact a Seller’s Real Estate Broker can disclose what happened only with the Seller’s consent.

As a licensed CO Realtor I would advise my clients to disclose because chances are the Buyer will find out before closing—better to keep it on the market than fall out of contract and have to put it back on the market. But if the Seller asked me to keep it quiet I’d risk my license by disclosing it.

Don’t know what the law is in Idaho but I think it would be easier to rent or sell that house than say the Watts house. As someone mentioned, there are likely to be some male students who don’t mind or even think it’s “cool”.

I think, MOO, they will tidy it up; install a camera or two and in a short period of time, if there is not another similar crime in the town, people will become less sensitive to it and because it is located close to campus, market forces will cause it to be rented by people who believe that lightening never strikes twice in the same place.

 

[jcamh]

Here’s what bothers me the most about this case: Where was the dog during the murders if no roommates or neighbors heard any barking?

But before I get to that, I want to explain why this case is so stuck in my mind. When I was their age I lived in a campus house with five girls. We had six rooms but one was always empty. I am curious how their living arrangement was set up, if they paid for their housing with student loans it’s possible the house is owned by the University. Otherwise, they probably rent it from a local landlord. My house was owned by the University, our roommates were assigned, and was basically a huge piece of crap with bad street lighting etc. Especially because the house is so close to the frat house, it wouldn’t surprise me if it was university-owned.

I lived on the second floor of a split-level college house. My floor had a sliding door entry that faced the road and was easy to see into. We kept it unlocked most of the time because that’s how friends of those of us who shared that floor would come and go. Though we did generally lock it at night, I’m sure there were nights someone forgot. Not smart, I know. But I grew up in a rural area and remember being confused about having to lock doors when I moved to a city. It’s not engrained in everyone’s head as you may assume. Especially out there.

You had to learn to sleep through everything in that house. My roommate directly above me always had people over and her rabbit thumping around. It was not unusual to come home drunk, lay down, realize there were strange voices coming from above me, fall asleep. And because we had three entries to our various living areas it was easy not to see or talk to your other roommates that often. I definitely couldn’t tell you how many random people came and went that I didn’t realize were ever even there. I even woke up to someone trying to get into my room thinking it was a bathroom more than once.

This is part of the reason that being that age is such a high risk factor for being victimized. It’s a very vulnerable time and you don’t always (or even normally) make the most rational choices— not locking doors, posting your entire night on snap chat with location on, drinking too much without a secure way home, etc. All things that make a good target for a perp. I still sometimes look back and wonder how I survived those years. But that’s the thing, not everyone does survive it, and it’s a tragic reminder how fragile youth is.

So back to the dog. Either the dog was barking and no roommates or neighbors heard him or the dog really didn’t bark. I can’t puzzle out how the dog wouldn’t have barked unless it was in a crate or in a room completely separate from the rest of the house, maybe in the extra room. If it were in another room then maybe it was desensitized enough to noise of people coming and going in the house. I don’t think he would have been outside at that time either, it was cold. Even less likely if we consider LE has suggested they were sleeping already.

When I think about my roommate who had a dog, the crate was always in her room. Especially because strangers do come and go in college houses. I really don’t think she would have gone to sleep without her dog in her room. I just can’t see that. This dog would be a source of comfort for her. I shared a dog my Senior year of college with a boyfriend and I loved that dog, he always slept in the bed or in his crate.
I think we can logically rule out the dog being loose in the room (or anywhere in the house for that matter) Otherwise the dog likely would have barked, possibly attacked the perp, or at the very least stained all of his fur with blood. Looking at recent pictures, it’s very white and it doesn’t appear to have been stained. I also think if the dog were loose this perp wouldn’t have a hard time killing anything in their way (unless the crime was committed related to the ownership of the dog, which has crossed my mind).

So let’s assume the dog was in her room in a crate. I can’t figure out how the dog wouldn’t bark upon a stranger coming into the room. The perp could have been known to the dog, but wouldn’t a dog bark even if they know, or even trust, the person attacking it’s owner? Or, they could have fed the dog to distract him. I just can’t see how someone could get in without waking the girls, get lucky that the dog doesn’t bark, and then give it some food which might make the dog whine and make noises that wake the girls anyway. But let’s just assume the distraction works and the perp is gone before the dog realizes what happens, they can still smell death almost immediately. I really can’t imagine that her dog wouldn’t have barked through the night/morning after realizing something was off.

So even though I strongly believe that she would have kept her dog in her room, I can’t think of a reasonable scenario in which the dog was in the room at the time of the murders and also did not bark. Which means I have to consider the possibility that the dog really was in another room and didn’t bark, in which case I lean towards the extra room being used as sort of a “dog room” for while she is out of the house. My poor roommate’s dog had to be in her room all day when she was at class. It’s common courtesy in a shared house to keep your pet contained while not around.

So…. Where was the freaking dog?

I’ve outlined the possibilities of if the dog really didn’t bark, in that case he was likely in the spare bedroom.

The the alternative is that the dog was actually barking and the roommates and neighbors just didn’t hear him. A dog in distress can be loud, but the layout of the house is strange and maybe dogs in the neighborhood bark a lot and people don’t think twice about it and don’t remember hearing the barking. In that case I feel he was in a crate in her room and was barking, and may even be part of what made the roommates think someone was unconscious.

Some other possibilities, could the dog have been drugged? Could the dog have been muzzled? Could the dog have been locked somewhere by the perp? This would certainly add to the degree of premeditation involved in the crimes.

I wrote this whole novel and realized I don’t even know the name of the dog so brb while I Google it. You get a cookie if you read this far. Please let me know what you think about where the dog was. Was he in a crate? Was he loose? Which room was he in? Did he bark? Did he not bark? I feel like there is something there that we can logically deduce but I just can’t put my finger on it.

Dogs are weird about who they bark at and who they don't. I have a cattle dog who is insanely protective of me. He won't let anyone come within about two feet of me, even if he knows the person. However, here's what I have found. If someone knocks on the door - he goes insane barking and continues to bark even after I let them in and he knows that person as someone who he is very familiar with. However, anyone can open my door and walk in without knocking and he doesn't make a single sound. In fact, it takes him a minute or two to get up from his nap on my bed to come and see who has come in the door. Regardless of who it is, HE DOES NOT BARK if the person just opens the door and walks in. He only barks if they KNOCK. I think the reason he doesn't bark when someone walks in, as opposed to knocking, is because he thinks it must be me. However, if I open the door to a delivery person - DoorDash, Instacart, anyone - which I do when I see them coming to prevent him from going crazy if they knock. He still goes insane protecting me. He will bark at them, growl at them, charge them, he has even gotten past me and chase several of the delivery people away. I know in that instance he is protecting me, but I can be sitting in the living room and someone can walk in (that I know) without knocking and he does not make a sound. It's so weird.

 

[Bordeaux]

I think, MOO, they will tidy it up; install a camera or two and in a short period of time, if there is not another similar crime in the town, people will become less sensitive to it and because it is located close to campus, market forces will cause it to be rented by people who believe that lightening never strikes twice in the same place.

Clean it up. Refurbish extensively. Install a security system, security lights and quality door locks. It would probably be one of the safest homes in town. MOO.