ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 18

[cottonweaver]

LE discusses very little abou ongoing investigations with family. When my family member was murdered, the only information provided by LE and the the coroner's office was information that would become public information which was basically, cause of death and a time or estimated time of death and they do let you know generally what efforts are being made to solve the murder.

They will provide general updates that are painfully frustrating because it's much the same as what the public gets, 'investigation is ongoing and we're doing everything we can.' Victims families do tend to know sooner that the public when an arrest has been made.

Based on the fact that he had family calling him before before LE did, there is a strong chance that a certain amount of information he has comes from external sources. I don't feel he's disclosed anything that's going to harm and investigation and at this point, I would suggest that if the small bit of information he has has given him some small bit of comfort, it's well worth it, regardless how he found out.

sincere condolences for your loss.

do you mind me asking whether you ( or whoever was next of kin) got a named family liaison officer or victim support officer who the family could call for support? ( even though these, if working for LE usually don't get given the critical information either, to safeguard the investigation)

 

[Zinn]

Did not 2 of the victims walk home from where ever they spent the evening? Perhaps they ran into someone on there walk home and invited them over to party. Something drunk 20 something year old college students would do. Then when everyone fell asleep he attacked and killed them. Leaves a big question as to motive however. Thoughts?

So is everyone leaning towards some random stranger psycho killer unknown to them or someone close to them with a much more personal motive? If its someone close to them I would assume the police are taking DNA samples from everyone close to them so that should in theory lead to the killer or killers

Two of the victims walked half a mile from a bar to a food truck. They then had a ride the rest of the way home. Driver not identified but not believed to be involved.

Other two victims, nothing has been released as to their travel home, as far as I know. Edit to add: They lived walking distance from a party they attended earlier in the evening but it is not clear they went straight home from the party. They also could have gone home, gone out again and come back. None of that has been made clear.

I don’t have a strong leaning but there are a couple scenarios that make sense to me at this point. I can imagine it being very personal; someone they knew well who strongly resented at least one person on the second floor and at least one person on the third floor. I can also imagine it being someone like an incel who didn’t know them beyond social media or perhaps as an acquaintance and hated them all.

 

[Bordeaux]

Motive?

The primary classes of motive are Sex, Greed, and Revenge. All “sub-motives“ fit under those categories.

 

[OldCop]

I agree, but that fact would be a general fact that virtually anyone could assume to be true (or guess at). It wouldn't be a good rule out question. I would have been more concerned if the father released details of the knife or how they were stabbed, etc, because those would be more discernible, intimate facts.

In my opinion.

Sorry to disagree, but I think a statement regarding the location of the bodies is extremely relevant to a person’s knowledge of the crime.

 

[Missyrocks5]

Reporters are not going to just "go home." We live in a media saturated culture with the good and the bad that comes from that.

Having been on the media side, I would say be careful what you ask for. Historically, the media in America has been relied on to inform the public, protect our U.S. Constitutional rights (especially to know what the government is doing, often in secret) & made an informed citizenry possible.

The landscape is changing now with so many outlets for information (most of it unvetted opinion).

There is a necessary tension in a society like ours between police and the media. It is a strength when compared to places like China & Russia where media is historically under government control.

What many see here as manipulation, I see as the natural outcome of competing rights. It is a very good thing to have an LE investigation that is careful. It is a very good thing to live in an open society where LE has accountability.

When LE in the U.S. says releasing info of any kind beyond the barest facts is protecting their investigation, they are overlooking the larger interests of our open society. Withholding probable cause affidavits, for example, is often done by LE when it is a basic glaring violation of the public's right to know. Without the media going to legal expense & great effort, the public would be left in the dark in many, if not most jurisdictions, in the U.S. in most criminal cases.

I understand the passion on both sides of this issue but blanket shut downs of investigative info and complaints about media behavior are part of living in a country founded on principles that create this tension. We need to be glad for it IMHO.

LE needs to be more transparent & stop behaving like no perp can be arrested because their investigations are too compromised by demands for information.

Media could be more respectful & focus on facts rather than gossip in trying to gain an inside edge on their competition.

But that won't change the basic conflict enshrined by our founders in the multitude of "checks and balances" our freedoms rely on.

Any time any government agency is not held accountable by some outside pressure, we are all in jeopardy of losing basic freedoms we are lucky to take for granted in the U.S.

Getting off the soapbox now.
MOO

Off to the races on something that was never what I was saying. Of course we need the media to investigate and ask questions to get to corruption or misfeasance, etc as well as so many other things or else we would be like other countries where they imprison or worse those reporters. That’s not even in the ballpark of my point.

It’s only been 2 1/2 weeks later! It’s not a cold case from a year ago. There are local people from a small town who are not accustomed to the national stage nor are they at all acclimated to even having a murder for nearly a decade then going out and speaking to the national media. Again, the families are understandably under extreme grief, but look at the end result. Every time any of these people has spoken, they are giving tidbits that the FBI and LE don’t want out there. It’s only been two weeks plus, you think LE doesn’t know their every move is going to be scrutinized? That they need reporters to put pressure on them because otherwise they wouldn’t be doing their job? In six months, if no arrest, people want to start going through everything to see why there and delving into every aspect of it, by all means, go ahead then.

But otherwise, what you have is an undermining of the case that is counterproductive to the goal. By releasing crucial information with every interview that should not be out there, they are actually endangering the conviction of whoever they do charge. If the end goal is to get a maniac behind bars, continuing to press for details that should be secretive at this point is what people should be upset about, not the other way around. They should have one spokesperson with experience on the national stage speaking to reporters if that’s the case or releasing a press release everyday to be transparent.

 

[CFProfiles]

Has there been any talk of the point of entry? Was it confirmed to be the slider? Or was it the window to the other empty bedroom on the 2nd floor?

 

[Mominmi]

Does anyone know if E was an officer in his fraternity? I googled but couldn’t find a link to a wepage for the UI chapter or find the information on the Facebook page. I’m not the best searcher so hoping someone knows.

When my son was president of his fraternity chapter at a large state university he had to remain sober during all OFFICIAL social events. He was also the one to make decisions regarding how to handle problems “in the moment”, like do we need to call an ambulance, police, refuse someone entrance, etc. He said to him it was “like being the dad”. He learned A LOT about responsibility while in this role but it was a lot of stress and carried some personal risk. The Risk Management Officer also had to be sober, as well as a certain number of the members serving on the risk management team each event. All that said to explain that parties, events often ended OFFICIALLY, say, at 10’clock… way earlier than the fun stopped and it usually moved elsewhere but not always. After that president and risk management could drink. (The more responsible among them would choose to not get S***-faced if they stayed at frat house but at least they didn’t have to remain alcohol free.) I’m just wondering, *if* E was on risk management that night maybe he was dealing with a problem during the missing hours. My own son had to spend hours in the ER with kids more than once after official frat events and once, after clearing the vomit out of an underaged kids throat who they‘d found choking in the bathroom at the frat house, he spent hours after the party ended in the kids dorm room until the RA could be found because he was afraid to leave him alone.

Maybe the four hours are unexplaimed because someone (Sigma Chi alumni bro, university admin, Greek advisors… someone with some pull somehow) didn’t want knowledge of where E was during that time out in the public data because it reflects badly on the university, the frat or Greek system or it could get someone in trouble or embarrassed or break their HIPPA who Isn’t a main actor in the murder.

I don’t think a situation like this would play into the murder but might tighten the timeline. This crime would of required a sober and focused brain, I think. WHOLE POST IS OPINION.

*edited to fix typo

 

[Emerald15]

Has there been any talk of the point of entry? Was it confirmed to be the slider? Or was it the window to the other empty bedroom on the 2nd floor?

I don’t think LE will confirm point of entry, at least for now.

 

[itsrak]

The primary classes of motive are Sex, Greed, and Revenge. All “sub-motives“ fit under those categories.

No. Lunacy.

 

[CityKid]

I agree with you. It just find the public is constantly complaining about no press conferences.
They are not satisfied with a single PIO or an informational press release. They liken it to WH press briefings with prepared sound bites. They figure if they can get the individual LE officers to comment, they have a better chance of getting a juicy tidbit. And, they don’t want to hear, “We can’t comment on that at this time.”
A lot of people want to know, but very few people have the right to know.

I've said it before: They need to get a PR firm to help them craft a daily briefing covering all agencies involved, make it a press release, and don't do press conferences where you might give conflicting reports, tons of 'we can't comment on that' and such. Right now, the main focus should be on finding the killer(s) here, not on satisfying folks who want salacious details about this case.

 

[SteveP]

Has there been any talk of the point of entry? Was it confirmed to be the slider? Or was it the window to the other empty bedroom on the 2nd floor?

Not point of entry or egress has been confirmed by LE, if they even know yet.

 

[hopewell]

Sorry to disagree, but I think a statement regarding the location of the bodies is extremely relevant to a person’s knowledge of the crime.

No need to apologize! Opinions may vary, but we all want the same thing!

 

[cady]

IMO, not necessarily. If most were in bed sleeping, a sharp knife to the throat works in the killers favor for several reasons. It's a relatively quick death; 30-60 seconds by some estimates. Secondly, it's also relatively quiet if the cut is deep enough to sever vocal chords, trachea, and jugulars. This doesn't necessarily take expertise, only a rudimentary understanding of anatomy, high level of commitment (motivation), a sharp knife, and a little bit of strength.

That's what I think, too. But I would put that knowledge in the expertise column.....the perp may not have expertise in killing a human animal, but be very adept at slaughtering large animals, or, both. jmo

 

[XtremeScorpio]

MSN

11/22/22

Jim Clemente, a retired FBI supervisory special agent and criminal behavioral analysis expert, told Fox News Digital on Tuesday that the killer likely knew the victims or was a stalker familiar with their habits.

"Going into an occupied dwelling with six people in … different rooms in the middle of the night is an extremely high-risk crime, unless he knows one or more of the people," Clemente told Fox News Digital. "So, that is my first thought on it: this offender did not just randomly choose this location, that he targeted one or more of the people in there. Now, that could be because he has a relationship or a past relationship with one or more of them, or it could be that he's been stalking one or more of them."

Police also confirmed Tuesday that the weapon used in the attacks was a "fix-blade knife." A medical examiner determined during an autopsy last week that all four victims were stabbed multiple times and some had defensive wounds.

[..]

View attachment 382040

General views of the house on November 16, 2002, where four students of the University of Idaho were murdered show red stains running down the foundation of the house in Moscow, Idaho. Derek Shook for Fox News Digital© Derek Shook for Fox News Digital

ETA: Noting latest or 11/22/22 MSM ceased referencing red streaks on the foundation as blood, and now labeled as "red stain."

I've seen a lot of talk and speculation on this forum about berries being the source of the red liquid trails on the house's foundation but nothing confirmed. My question is why hasn't forensics tested it to confirm whether it is indeed blood or not??

I am running a bit behind in reading these threads so I apologize if this question has been answered or it's been decided to leave this discussion alone.

 

[CityKid]

what is the motive then?

Legally, it really doesn't matter.

 

[tayaway]

Motive?
A) random thrill kill for a psychopath
B) felt spurned by one of the girls
C) bigoted toward Greek life
D) some sort of roommate dispute between any of the 5 girls and/or perhaps a BF
E) hit prompted by drug debt of one of the students or a parent
F) other?

I'd go with, from most to least likely, D B A C E F

It's like there's 3 shower curtains and you've got to choose the right one to reveal the killer, but some of the clues change. There are so many possibilities at this stage, with only what we the public know so far. MOO: Maybe it was a serial killer in town for some other purpose and went looking for an unlocked entry, or... somebody they knew, consumed with rage, did it.

 

[Birmingplumb]

<modsnip> imo eliminate many of the possibilities discussed here such as any novice or spurned insulted kid by being able to cover his their tracks. Someone mentioned a pre planted camera in the house, others mentioned "more than one"... yes a garbage bag for clothes even a shower...afterword....just hought (plumber here) did the drains get checked for blood? would have stayed in system possibly if short shower....just stuck on who would be "experienced-trained" to pull this off for so long and wtf they went so quick and stealth if not a pro.

 

[Wallendo]

23% of U of I students are in organized Greek organizations: Fraternity & Sorority Life | University of Idaho

There may be Greek ties to this crime, but that would be most likely due to 23% of the campus population participating (and it is probably well over 23% of the late night partying population). If a brother murdered another brother, there would be no incentive to cover up the crime. Who would want to live in a house with a murderer?

As to the murders themselves, we know LE was looking for large knife purchases. This type of knife could be used in hand-to-hand combat and are designed to kill strong young men rapidly - otherwise they would be of little military use. In more modern usage, this type of knife could be used to defend against a bear or other large predator. A few quick blows (or even a single stab) to the mid chest with a large knife would be likely to hit a major vascular structure causing rapid blood loss, loss of consciousness, and death. An injury a major bronchus could produce a rapid tension pneumothorax and death. A major lung injury could make it difficult to scream. With chest injuries, victims can exsanguinate into the chest

To me, the most likely scenario was a targetted attack against one of the two women on the third floor. The perp may have planned a quiet entry, quick kill, and rapid exit. When he attacks his victim as planned, in what was likely a darkened room, he was surprised when the second person wakes up and he has to silence her. Possibly there was enough noise to awaken E and X, and E confronts the perp coming down the steps and is stabbed. X may have witnessed this and becomes collateral damage. With his plan going sideways at this point, the perp heads out as quickly as possible.

As for the dog, possibly when the perp opened the door, the dog went outside and the door was closed behind him.

 

[XtremeScorpio]

Avondale woman killed near University of Idaho

Police in Moscow, Idaho, are investigating the deaths of four University of Idaho students at an off-campus residence.

www.westvalleyview.com

I am confused as to why X's obit did not mention her being from Avondale, or from any other part of Arizona, at all. I know her dad lives here (in AZ) but that doesn't necessarily mean she from here. Her obit states she was born in Coeur D'Alene, ID.

 

[EBW321]

Good points.