ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 19

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Cota332 said:
Good info, but I fear that in the early days of this case, the "Ka-Bar" misnomer was thrown about all too frequently by inexperienced media members, inferring themselves that the weapon was in fact a Ka-Bar.
PD is essentially saying that the likely murder weapon was a fixed-blade knife, which a Ka-Bar qualifies as, but not all fixed-blade knives qualify as Ka-Bars.

Ka-Bars can be used for hunting, and frankly, hunters are a diverse group of people; anyone with any sort of military/tactical leanings/backgrounds may be even more inclined to use a Ka-Bar for hunting.

Sorry, I didn't view the whole video, but how did this individual infer that the assailant used their weapon for knife-throwing?
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Just using your post as an example since this comes up a lot.

The reason Kabar brand knives was a big issue early on is because we had shop owners that were reporting to the media of LE coming to the store and asking about Ka bars specifically, definitively. And not once, but several times. I am sure you can find the articles quoting them in the media thread. So this was not an issue made up by the media or misunderstood. We were speculating on the early threads that perhaps there was a sheath left behind, or an imprint of the actual knife left in blood. I still put a lot of weight on the knife being this specific brand - even though they came out and tried to persuade everyone that they were looking at “all fixed blade knives” afterward - like with other things I think they were trying to get the public off some very specific knowledge about the crime for strategical reasons. I am fairly convinced that they do indeed know a lot more about the knife than not.
 
seemstome said:
After reading this interview excerpt, I find it odd that one victim’s (grieving) father is publicly incriminating one or more if the victims by alluding to their past and possible illicit activity. Casting a shadow, so to speak.

I also wonder what people on this site think about why the father is letting details possibly crucial to arrest/conviction ‘slip,’
Such as saying there were bruises, they were in the same bed, etc. Things that only the killer or LE would know. I may have missed this in reading but do people think LE is telling him what to say and when in order to ‘outwit’ the killer? Does LE actually do that?
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I don't think that LE is telling SC what to say. In fact, SC said that he would like LE to give him more guidance on what he can and cannot say, but they don't want to do that, so he does his best and sometimes says things that LE would prefer he didn't say. I think he is genuinely trying not to say things that would hurt the investigation, but on the other hand he is determined to do everything he can to help find the killer of his daughter.
 
Cota332 said:
This post carried some great insight I hadn't thought of!

MOO : I interpreted the interview as K's dad was attempting to disclose that the victims had committed a crime and thus the victims themselves exhibited odd behaviors because of the crime.
I wasn't fully on-board with the theory of illicit substance involvement, but this may tie in with that. Purely speculation, however.
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Reporter - Do you believe that your daughter was the target?. Or do you have any reason to think that she was, over someone else or that someone else was?.

Dad - I do have some inkling that there was some behaviour difference. I call them a footprint. When you commit a crime you do different behaviours. I've asked permission to give any of that out and they told me, no, it would not be beneficial. So, I've held back on that and I tried to keep my word.

**
This was a question about targeting of one particular victim. My interpretation was that the perpetrator's footprint (behavior towards the victims during the crime) could potentially have demonstrated that there was a particular target. (more injuries?)
 
formerlyme said:
general DNA question in this case I feel there is some just not pinging anywhere, it is my understanding that the familial dna / genetic genealogy has been used mostly on older cold cases, has it become commonplace practice that it is used earlier in an investigation now? I am not sure the expense involved and if all investigators are using it, I would think the FBI has access rather quickly. but not sure. Anyone?
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I think the process has become quicker. Both Ancestry and 23andme (two major databases) cooperate, but there are others (some sites specifically designed for genealogical research).

It's not super expensive. I think we'll see it in use earlier in more cases of this type.

Jealoushe said:
someone outside LE probably found this out and went to the media or was going to and LE decided to put it out there instead?

I don't see why every person becomes a suspect that's related to the girls, unless there is something supporting it.
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I can see why, from a LE POV, since they want to follow every lead or hint.

However, I find it uncomfortable and off putting (to say the least) when online forums decide that so many people might be suspects (probably unavoidable in a high profile case like this one though). LE may have released the info as a heads up to the sixth person, who would surely be interviewed at some point (and the press may have the same information).

I also wish people would stop saying LE is "stumped" or the "case is going cold" when it's clearly a highly active investigation with multiple viable vectors and quite a bit of optimism on the part of police. They know a lot more than they are saying. And I also think they may have an incomplete DNA sample (speculation here), and they may want a complete one. They may have a particular person in mind, and need to get a sample without a warrant. That can be tricky.
 
Hexe said:
The knife getting stuck has more to do with the force of the stab (therefore with the physical strength of the stabber) than with having or not any training. Someone who has big upper body strength can stab strongly enough to jam the blade into the bone or between the vertebrae and that's what makes the knife stuck. You do not need any knife combat training though to stab a sleeping person to death.
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Surprise is a powerful element of any physical attack. Sucker punching someone doesn't take great skill, it just relies on the victim not anticipating an attack.

Attacking a sleeping individual with a knife takes no skill at all, especially if the individual is under the influence. You could stand over them for several seconds calculating what body part would be the most lethal for a first strike. The neck is usually visible even when covered with a sheet or blanket. How the individual sleeps could decide where to strike. Are they side sleepers, back sleepers, stomach sleepers? Lots of rapists/murderers have watched their victims sleeping before attacking them.

All it takes to disable your victim is the element of surprise. Most people have never been in a physical fight. Maybe some pushing back and forth as a kid but have never experienced a physical threat that could severely harm them. Watching stuff on TV and playing video games doesn't prepare for the actuality.
 
How strong do you have to be to kill by stabbing?
Not very strong at all. Far less strong than if a perp used blunt force trauma

Just had a look at UK research cause UK has much more knife homicide than USA ( 30% of all homicides) so UK forensic research in this field is well developed.

'If bone is penetrated, then, based on previous published data, it can be justified to suggest that greater force was used to inflict the injury however this force is less than that of a double handed push, a slap of annoyance or a punch'
( the scientists mean the type of slap which leaves a bruise on the face)

all the tables are here for right hand, left hand, M or Female etc
Makes sense that a less strong perp wanted to employ a knife designed and used for combat ( since World War 1 !)

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Forces generated in stabbing attacks: an evaluation of the utility of the mild, moderate and severe scale

The commonest way of killing in the UK is by a sharp instrument. Knight reported in 1975 that it is impossible to discern with any degree of certainty the degree of force used to create a stab wound. Despite this, expert witnesses continue to approximate ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

and how deep to kill?
'just 20mm of knife penetration gave a 41% chance of puncturing the lungs, over a 60% chance of liver or femoral artery rupture, and even a 6% chance of heart penetration'
www.ingenia.org.uk

Issue 37 | Ingenia

Ingenia focuses on all aspects of engineering. Our articles showcase a wide range of engineering and technology innovation, from robotics and data to the latest in renewable energy and medical technologies.
www.ingenia.org.uk www.ingenia.org.uk


edited to add:
@branmuffin spooky cross- post
( I had not seen your post while I was writing this)
 
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Honest Abraham said:
.This may be logistically challenging but if the school or third party sent out an electronic survey to the students asking them how many guests they had and where their guests were from for the football game, then they might be able to contact those specific institutions to have them keep an eye out for a student acting suspiciously.
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The university is not able, legally, to provide a third party with student directory information (including email, phone numbers for texts, etc.) without the student's consent. These are students' rights governed by FERPA ( Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act), federal law that applies to all colleges and universities that receive federal funds and with oversight by the U.S. Department of Education. Universities are very careful not to violate FERPA regulations.
 
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ellabella said:
The obit actually lists all of her siblings, one has a different last name.
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I can see understand why some are confused due to the lack of semicolons and the abundance of commas in the obituary. I had to read the list carefully to put each name with the relationship. I thought it was a lovely tribute and very moving, but I did want to take a red pen to it. LOL MOO
 
acutename said:
I was wondering how good cut resistant gloves are... anyone have them?
amazon ad: "

The cut resistant fabric keeps the knicks, scrapes and cuts away.​


These gloves are cut resistant all over - the front, the back, the side. So when you’re working with sharp blades, these gloves act as a second protective layer. But - they’re NOT cut proof so - even when the gloves are on - common sense rules around knives and sharp pointy things still apply."


to me this sounds like they are resistant, but no guarantee that a full on slice or jab would not penetrate...
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I own a restaurant and my staff begged for these so they could cut avocados holding them in their hands, instead of against the cutting board. These are NOT cut resistant at all. I pretty much threw them away as soon as they came so I wouldn't have a workman's comp claim to deal with. True chainmail gloves are different, but they cost about $150 each (not a pair) and are more for holding down products with your non-dominant hand while you cut holding a knife with your dominant hand.
 
Periwinkl3 said:
BBM.
Since this is transcribed from a spoken interview, it's unclear if the father is saying "behavior of the victim's" (singular) or "behavior of the victims/victims'" (plural).
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One thing that struck me after he made that comment was that as word spread through town that something bad had happened at the house, there would have been a great many 'are you okay' texts from friends and acquaintances.

If the killer is someone who knows the 4 individuals, they may feel they committed the perfect crime but it's unlikely they send a message of concern because they already know they are dead.
 
hopewell said:
I feel like the following definition of targeting according to page 41 of this FBI handbook is important when considering this case. Many are or have assumed that this term means that the victims knew their killer. That is not necessarily true.


My opinion.
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Excellent resource! Thanks for sharing. Also a old section regarding immediately follows relating to the discussion upthread about this subject (which I have looked for but lost and will link when I find it. It was either upthread in #19 or towards the end of #18 between one of our verified physicians and another poster who is a verified anthropologist (I think these were the two posters, may be misremembering)… whew that was a mouthful. I have disordered thinking since my strokes, I “think”!)

”Psychosis is a severe mental disorder in which both thought and emotion distort reality. It is sometimes the driving factor behind targeted violence, but personality disturbances seem to play more of a role.71 Nevertheless, caution is advised if one assumes that psychotic individuals will not be able to organize themselves enough to engage in complex and organized behavior. One early study found certain or probable psychosis in two thirds of adult mass murderers, contradicting such an assumption.72 Recentresearchsuggeststhatatleast20%ofadultmassmurdererswereseverelymentallyill.73 Inthe experience of the BAU, and in the observations of researchers, deeply entrenched delusional beliefs can have the effect of focusing and driving pre-attack behaviors and propelling a would-be offender along a pathway toward violently offending.
Although likely representing a minority of cases, psychotic symptoms or disorders can be a primary influencer of target selection. For example, Mr. C drove across the country and engaged in significant violence at the U.S. Capitol. He killed two sworn U.S. Capitol Police (USCP) personnel, acting on his delusional belief that the United States was about to be annihilated by disease and legions of cannibals. After surviving the incident, he later disclosed that he went to the Capitol to gain access to “the ruby satellite,” a device he said was kept in a Senate safe. As a person with paranoid schizophrenia, he was able to plan and carry out cross-country travel, and to engage in successful attack behavior. Mr. C believed the satellite was the key to putting a stop to the cannibalism. It had a means of reversing time, leading him to believe the deaths he caused were “not permanent.” Although he previously communicated his beliefs to others, including multiple governmental agencies, he was unable to secure assistance with his mission to protect himself and the public from harm. In his mind, this forced him to take action on his own” (page 42)

 
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Delay (?) in LE Learning of Sixth Person.
Celt1997 said:
What makes you believe that that LE didn't already know this? I'm sure they had the lease agreement within the 1st few days. What they release to us, and when, has no bearing on when they had that information for themselves.
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@Celt1997 Well stated, BBM. TYVM.

@mayhem911
^ post applies to virtually any piece of info LE gathers in the course of a criminal investigation.

In publicly releasing or withholding info, LE agencies (generally) use rhyme and reason.
W info/evidence which would be known only to the perpetrator, LE may "hold-back" to see if during questioning a witness reveals it, indicating involvement in crime or at least communication w the perp.
Timing of release may or may not be critical in those decisions.
JM2Cents.

BTW, the sixth-person here may be totally irrelevant or may be absolutely crucial to solving this case. IDK, time will tell.
 
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TwoBlueJays said:
If there is a sixth roommate, given that the housemates are all women, I would assume that any additional renter would also be female. And the energy and focus it would take to kill four people consecutively, three of whom you lived with, just doesn't strike me as something a college age girl would do. moo
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What if the sixth roommate was the potential target?
 
hopewell said:
I feel like the following definition of targeting according to page 41 of this FBI handbook is important when considering this case. Many are or have assumed that this term means that the victims knew their killer. That is not necessarily true.


My opinion.
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Absolutely. "Targeted" does not imply a previous relationship per se, only that the perp decided that that victim was going to be the one. That decision could be made in as little time as a day, few hours, minutes, etc.

(In the Cheshire home invasion for example one of the perps saw the mom and her daughter at the grocery store that afternoon and followed them home. He hadn't known of them previously.)
 
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