ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 19

[BondGirl007]

Excellent resource! Thanks for sharing. Also a old section regarding immediately follows relating to the discussion upthread about this subject (which I have looked for but lost and will link when I find it. It was either upthread in #19 or towards the end of #18 between one of our verified physicians and another poster who is a verified anthropologist (I think these were the two posters, may be misremembering)… whew that was a mouthful. I have disordered thinking since my strokes, I “think”!)

”Psychosis is a severe mental disorder in which both thought and emotion distort reality. It is sometimes the driving factor behind targeted violence, but personality disturbances seem to play more of a role.71 Nevertheless, caution is advised if one assumes that psychotic individuals will not be able to organize themselves enough to engage in complex and organized behavior. One early study found certain or probable psychosis in two thirds of adult mass murderers, contradicting such an assumption.72 Recentresearchsuggeststhatatleast20%ofadultmassmurdererswereseverelymentallyill.73 Inthe experience of the BAU, and in the observations of researchers, deeply entrenched delusional beliefs can have the effect of focusing and driving pre-attack behaviors and propelling a would-be offender along a pathway toward violently offending.
Although likely representing a minority of cases, psychotic symptoms or disorders can be a primary influencer of target selection. For example, Mr. C drove across the country and engaged in significant violence at the U.S. Capitol. He killed two sworn U.S. Capitol Police (USCP) personnel, acting on his delusional belief that the United States was about to be annihilated by disease and legions of cannibals. After surviving the incident, he later disclosed that he went to the Capitol to gain access to “the ruby satellite,” a device he said was kept in a Senate safe. As a person with paranoid schizophrenia, he was able to plan and carry out cross-country travel, and to engage in successful attack behavior. Mr. C believed the satellite was the key to putting a stop to the cannibalism. It had a means of reversing time, leading him to believe the deaths he caused were “not permanent.” Although he previously communicated his beliefs to others, including multiple governmental agencies, he was unable to secure assistance with his mission to protect himself and the public from harm. In his mind, this forced him to take action on his own” (page 42)

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/making-prevention-a-reality.pdf#page55

Thank you! So I take this to mean that when authorities say the Moscow Murders were "targeted" - they mean predatory/planned as opposed to impulsive/reactive. In other words, the murders were not spontaneous, emotion-driven, impulsive crimes emanating from a person's immediate anger or fear.

 

[Janitor101]

From interview:

Reporter - You know, when you talked about getting into the phone, you said we have family passwords and you know we were able to get in there. Is there anything that you can share with us about what you learned there or people she was communicating with?. We know there was a back and forth between she and her on and off boyfriend through the course of the night.

Dad - There was some information, we were able to get that to the police officers. I think it definitely helped them. I know behaviour footprint, afterwards, it did definitely get some more things in the works, but I'm a historical fact person, I can help them know my daughters and Maddie from past, but going forward I'm going to be less and less relevant.

Reporter - Do you believe that your daughter was the target?. Or do you have any reason to think that she was, over someone else or that someone else was?.

Dad - I do have some inkling that there was some behaviour difference. I call them a footprint. When you commit a crime you do different behaviours. I've asked permission to give any of that out and they told me, no, it would not be beneficial. So, I've held back on that and I tried to keep my word.

Reporter - I'm sorry, behaviour of her or someone she knew?.

Dad - Behaviour of the victims.

---

Let's pretend for a second that K has a friend named Kyle. Not a romantic interest, just a regular ol' friend that her family and other friends have known for quite some time. Imagine if K's dad is looking though K's phone and sees that all the text history from Kyle is wiped from her phone. He then sees they are no longer "friends" or "followers" on social media. Any/all emails between them are deleted. MOO This could be what he's talking about with the behavior footprint of the victims he observed via her phone (and possibly Maddie's? Have we ever learned how K's sister knew Maddie had placed those calls to J right after K did? Did K's sister get access to M's phone?)

The speculation in this post is that the killer(s) maybe did something on K's phone or all the victim's phones in attempt to wipe certain history that may incriminate themself/themselves. This would appear as the behavior of the victims. This is just wild speculation that I'm trying to make fit into what is possibly just a grammar error from K's dad during the interview. Grain of salt recommended.

I really hope this angry, frustrated, and grieving family doesn't take it upon themselves to begin calling unfamiliar phone numbers in K's phone. Not only is this counterproductive for LE, they might be putting themselves in some kind of danger. LE needs to have a thorough discussion with the families and coach them on how to protect the integrity of the case while they conduct their own investigations on the side. I'm sure the families have useful information to pass along to investigators, but they need to clear it with LE prior to revealing evidence during talk shows, etc.

 

[Shamrock1]

I was wondering how good cut resistant gloves are... anyone have them?
amazon ad: "

The cut resistant fabric keeps the knicks, scrapes and cuts away.​

These gloves are cut resistant all over - the front, the back, the side. So when you’re working with sharp blades, these gloves act as a second protective layer. But - they’re NOT cut proof so - even when the gloves are on - common sense rules around knives and sharp pointy things still apply."

https://www.amazon.com/NoCry-Resistant-Gloves-Grip-Dots/dp/B01FQXLSNS/ref=asc_df_B01FQXLSNS/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167128827755&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3667520641733936250&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003951&hvtargid=pla-307509521915&th=1

to me this sounds like they are resistant, but no guarantee that a full on slice or jab would not penetrate...

Definitely not cut-proof. Even the ad itself states the same. They’ll prevent lighter nicks from normal kitchen use or whittling.

 

[Kudzu]

BTW, the sixth-person here may be totally irrelevant or may be absolutely crucial to solving this case. IDK, time will tell.

My mind is heading down a whole new path. What if this sixth roommate wasn’t Greek, felt left out of all the closeness and banter and socializing. This would explain why she wasn’t in any of the roommate pics, why there was no break-in, no sexual assault. Maybe she felt the two survivors were kind to her but the other four were not? Maybe she lived mostly away from the house because she felt so uncomfortable being there and resented feeling that way (and paying rent).

And then I thought… why would this person necessarily have to be the sixth roommate? Maybe someone else who felt rage at four of them for how they made her feel about herself. Maybe a friend or relative of one of the two survivors.

This is MOO, but this new info has shifted my focus away from a male suspect.

 

[Sandy007]

I found this very interesting reading. Not sure if anyone already posted it, so apologises if it is a double post

Best Kabar Knives Review: Top 5 Picks and Buying Guide for 2022 - Survival Cache

 

[al66pine]

Too many cooks in the kitchen?

Posters have commented about missteps by authorities imo but this case is rather unusual w city, state, & fed LE investigating.
Even more officials have spoken publicly --- city mayor, county coroner, county prosecutor, & Uni.ID. reps.

Miscommunications among the above? And w the public & w MSM? Yes.

Too many cooks at the microphone does not mean the case is doomed. JM2Cents.

 

[Scvanvliet]

Reporter - Do you believe that your daughter was the target?. Or do you have any reason to think that she was, over someone else or that someone else was?.

Dad - I do have some inkling that there was some behaviour difference. I call them a footprint. When you commit a crime you do different behaviours. I've asked permission to give any of that out and they told me, no, it would not be beneficial. So, I've held back on that and I tried to keep my word.

**
This was a question about targeting of one particular victim. My interpretation was that the perpetrator's footprint (behavior towards the victims during the crime) could potentially have demonstrated that there was a particular target. (more injuries?)

That was my interpretation as well.

 

[TooMuchGun]

anyone else feel like Ks dad might have dropped that info on purpose at the vigil for LE? If so seems very desperate.

 

[BondGirl007]

My mind is heading down a whole new path. What if this sixth roommate wasn’t Greek, felt left out of all the closeness and banter and socializing. This would explain why she wasn’t in any of the roommate pics, why there was no break-in, no sexual assault. Maybe she felt the two survivors were kind to her but the other four were not? Maybe she lived mostly away from the house because she felt so uncomfortable being there and resented feeling that way (and paying rent).

And then I thought… why would this person necessarily have to be the sixth roommate? Maybe someone else who felt rage at four of them for how they made her feel about herself. Maybe a friend or relative of one of the two survivors.

This is MOO, but this new info has shifted my focus away from a male suspect.

From the FBI's Making Prevention a Reality: Identifying, Assessing, and Managing the Threat of Targeted Attacks that someone posted earlier in this thread, authorities seem to mean by "targeted" that this was not an impulsive, reactionary attack. In other words, not about rage.

 

[NWguy22]

Exactly. May tie in with Steve saying he'll wait for funeral service for daughter, not wanting someone there [killer, fake friend or such]. Implying waiting for arrest first, maybe soon as proof is gathered. MOO.

Who would it be? Ex-bf obviously isn’t an issue for them, being specifically included in her obit. Surviving roommates haven’t been heard from period and probably wouldn’t suddenly show up. Is he just going with the general theory that the killer would want to be at the service or is there a specific person he knows would have to be there?

 

[jbennett]

I had a thought. Hard to keep up with threads so I'm not sure if it has been mentioned yet.
I keep going back to the "coincidence" of Kaylee going back to college after being away just to show her friends her car and then this event occurs.
Maybe there was actually another reason she went back that weekend and whatever that reason may be is what resulted in the subsequent event.
Could also explain why her parents seem to insinuate she was the target.

 

[NoviceCrimeWatcher]

Are 911 calls public information? I know the 911 call about the murders is being held back but, in general, are they available? I ask because I'm wondering if any other 911 calls came in that night/morning that could be related. Like a dispute somewhere else in town that potentially might have carried over to the house.

 

[kalekona]

I was wondering how good cut resistant gloves are... anyone have them?
amazon ad: "

The cut resistant fabric keeps the knicks, scrapes and cuts away.​

These gloves are cut resistant all over - the front, the back, the side. So when you’re working with sharp blades, these gloves act as a second protective layer. But - they’re NOT cut proof so - even when the gloves are on - common sense rules around knives and sharp pointy things still apply."

https://www.amazon.com/NoCry-Resistant-Gloves-Grip-Dots/dp/B01FQXLSNS/ref=asc_df_B01FQXLSNS/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167128827755&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3667520641733936250&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003951&hvtargid=pla-307509521915&th=1

to me this sounds like they are resistant, but no guarantee that a full on slice or jab would not penetrate...

I work cutting fruits and vegetables and we are required to wear cut gloves, they do prevent sliced type wounds, and work very well when cutting using a normal pressure but they can be punctured. They are only cut resistant, chain mail type gloves are cut proof.

 

[10ofRods]

And Agree with the earlier comment that was posted, DNA under fingernails Would be hard to explain, Also Any hair fibers especially near one of the victims, Also blood mixed in with blood of victims although I’m no expert seems like Mixed blood would be hard to differentiate

Not if there are DNA samples from the relevant victim. If a victim managed to get some of the perp's DNA under his/her finger nails, it would be pretty easy to differentiate between that DNA and the victim's DNA (for which they obviously have a complete map).

Excellent resource! Thanks for sharing. Also a old section regarding immediately follows relating to the discussion upthread about this subject (which I have looked for but lost and will link when I find it. It was either upthread in #19 or towards the end of #18 between one of our verified physicians and another poster who is a verified anthropologist (I think these were the two posters, may be misremembering)… whew that was a mouthful. I have disordered thinking since my strokes, I “think”!)

”Psychosis is a severe mental disorder in which both thought and emotion distort reality. It is sometimes the driving factor behind targeted violence, but personality disturbances seem to play more of a role.71 Nevertheless, caution is advised if one assumes that psychotic individuals will not be able to organize themselves enough to engage in complex and organized behavior. One early study found certain or probable psychosis in two thirds of adult mass murderers, contradicting such an assumption.72 Recentresearchsuggeststhatatleast20%ofadultmassmurdererswereseverelymentallyill.73 Inthe experience of the BAU, and in the observations of researchers, deeply entrenched delusional beliefs can have the effect of focusing and driving pre-attack behaviors and propelling a would-be offender along a pathway toward violently offending.
Although likely representing a minority of cases, psychotic symptoms or disorders can be a primary influencer of target selection. For example, Mr. C drove across the country and engaged in significant violence at the U.S. Capitol. He killed two sworn U.S. Capitol Police (USCP) personnel, acting on his delusional belief that the United States was about to be annihilated by disease and legions of cannibals. After surviving the incident, he later disclosed that he went to the Capitol to gain access to “the ruby satellite,” a device he said was kept in a Senate safe. As a person with paranoid schizophrenia, he was able to plan and carry out cross-country travel, and to engage in successful attack behavior. Mr. C believed the satellite was the key to putting a stop to the cannibalism. It had a means of reversing time, leading him to believe the deaths he caused were “not permanent.” Although he previously communicated his beliefs to others, including multiple governmental agencies, he was unable to secure assistance with his mission to protect himself and the public from harm. In his mind, this forced him to take action on his own” (page 42)

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/making-prevention-a-reality.pdf#page55

Excellent post.

I can't say too much, but I actually knew a student who traveled cross country to commit a crime against a public official (was caught, it was pretty well publicized). Thing is, I would say he was only a little odd, socially awkward. However, he had a huge hole in his reality system, given how he "planned" his crime.

The kind of psychosis you're describing is really scary. Such people can certainly plan crimes and carry them out. Sometimes the behavior/execution of the crime is so bizarre and inexplicable that it's really hard to find the perp.

For others, having an already unstable mind (sometimes a personality disorder) causes brief breaks with their ordinary reality, especially when drugs or alcohol are added in. I spent yesterday reading up on obsessions and compulsions after the mention of "stalking" (an obsessive condition). A single obsession can unbalance a person completely, is my summary of what I read.

There are varying degrees of bing out of touch with reality, that's for sure. Holes/miswiring in the reality-checking system.

 

[shane13]

Who would it be? Ex-bf obviously isn’t an issue for them, being specifically included in her obit. Surviving roommates haven’t been heard from period and probably wouldn’t suddenly show up. Is he just going with the general theory that the killer would want to be at the service or is there a specific person he knows would have to be there?

I don't know and we are not allowed to speculate here unless named an official POI.

 

[ifimmurderedjoedidit]

Are 911 calls public information? I know the 911 call about the murders is being held back but, in general, are they available? I ask because I'm wondering if any other 911 calls came in that night/morning that could be related. Like a dispute somewhere else in town that potentially might have carried over to the house.

Daily Activity Log | Moscow, ID

See the Police Departments Daily Activity Log.

www.ci.moscow.id.us

 

[cottonweaver]

He's very critical of LE but am not convinced he's followed it all, if you listen to hear what he's critical about

 

[cottonweaver]

Also not impressed - Banfield
( Although the floor plan which NewsNation digitised - off Johnny Law's - doesn't even include windows)

 

[dianewms]

The obit actually lists all of her siblings, one has a different last name.

 

[Emerald1328]

Again, the service is supposed to start in 8 minutes.

U of I Student Memorial Page | Real Life Ministries

www.reallifeministries.com