ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 35

[AngTxGal]

Does anyone think that the perp had to mount (sit on top) of the victims? Or did he just start stabbing from a standing position? Maybe back and forth from one sleeping victim to the other. (shudder the thought)

Great question, I think this would depend on the
-size/ weight of killer, force of stabbing
-height of killer, leverage
-height of bed, leverage
-position of sleeping victim, are they on their side and stabbed in that position
-killer strength, leverage from body position can increase force of stab
-intention of killer, how deep did they want to stab
-knowledge of killer- to stab with the correct measured force you would have to know what that is.

Is there evidence all victims were stabbed with the same measured force in a similar location? This would suggest knowledge prior rather than learning during killings.

What do I think? I think they stood by the bed next to each victim and served multiple lethal blows into the center of the chest and/or throat. A deep thrust long knife into the center of the chest a few inches in any direction would encounter
-sternum/ ribs, heart, lungs, aorta, spinal column

Center of the throat would encounter
-trachea, esophagus, voicebox, spinal column

Side of throat would encounter
-neck muscles, major vessels to brain from heart and returning to heart from brain, nerves

The knife chosen also has to be capable of handling that force and not break- through the chest walls of 4 victims.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

There is no evidence for that whatsoever. Zero. For all we know no one saw a body. There is also another utterly unfound rumor that the male victim was found in hallway which was just invented in someone's comment and started to be taken as fact.
For all we know the 911 caller and the roommates, and the people they asked to come over before anyone even called 911 never saw any body or bodies

No evidence for, or against from what we know

 

[AngTxGal]

So you have a small Police Department with the power of State LE and Federal LE behind it and they can't locate a car? Does anyone else find this odd? Could it be that this car isn't that important and it's just something put out there to show that they are doing something?

Do I think PD is putting out the request for tips on the Elantra to show the public they are ‘doing something’ ?
No.
In a properly run investigation LE must follow down the path of each and every single tip to its logical and reasonable end. All of this must be documented carefully.

Why? All it takes is a good defense attorney to bring up one of the tips not followed that could lead to another person having been involved. Then you have the possibility of reasonable doubt put into the minds of the jury.
So, LE must be careful when they ask the public for help.

JMO

 

[Missyrocks5]

I really feel for the Moscow police. They are now having to spend as much time defending themselves as they are on the investigation.

Indeed. And to completely amplify this, it’s having to defend themselves from the most unlikely of detractors – the very people who they are trying to help. LE represents the voices of the deceased for whom they are trying to obtain justice. Do you know how many hours all of these people have put in trying to get this case, not just solved, but to get a conviction? And to have their every move denigrated, publicly scorned every day on TV by one of the families of the victims which in turn then feeds the beast of the cable channels that feed off of anti-LE sentiment, over and over every day.

And the ones who I feel even more for are the family members of other victims who are having to sit and watch the circus every day and realizing that the people that they are relying upon to help get them justice are being ridiculed and antagonized them every day. LE Is in a position to have to put out statements to defend themselves from accusations. How awful for the other victims’ families having to want to put distance between themselves and all those criticisms.

 

[Past Mortem]

IMO that noise is nothing but some background noise on the reporters end. Someone else mentioned the start of a siren possibly before it was shut off by the sound guy and I’d say that’s probably right or even possibly a car alarm.

What I do find interesting is what SG says towards the end about the car. Basically, he was saying to share any photos, videos etc you have from that night with LE as you never know what could be in the background. It was the example he used here I found intriguing though, I’m paraphrasing but it was along the lines of “send that selfie in because you may think there’s nothing in it but maybe in the background a car isn’t there next to a tree and someone has said in their alibi that their car was parked there in that spot next to the tree and no here’s a photo and the car isn’t where they said”.

Again, I know it was just an example but given all the LE call outs for info on the Hyundai and the fact that he has a private investigator now, I wonder if his example actually comes from a place of some truth. It does make me think about some peoples comments on here where maybe the car belongs to a family member of the killer and the family is protecting them by saying “no, our car was parked here in this very spot in the days leading up the the murder and the day of and it never moved” yet LE have witnesses or footage (without reg visible) of the car at the scene of the crime and they need proof that the car wasn’t ELSEWHERE rather than that it was there. If that makes sense?

Thinking of it like that makes me lean back towards it potentially being someone known the the victims and that LE have a good idea of who did it but the car is the smoking gun so to speak.

I just found it interesting that he chose to say “maybe there’s a car that isn’t there…” That sounds so specific to me. Like wouldn’t it be much more natural if just giving a random example to say “maybe there’s a car that’s there” rather than that ISN’T there?

 

[CityKid]

That's interesting, I believe that I heard that in Stephanie Harlowe's video covering the case. Also, I believe that one of the people that the surviving roommates called said that someone had fainted. I'll have to look more into this and see if I can find where this originally came from.

I believe the fainting story was postulated as a possible reason why the survivors didn't place the 911 call themselves, and lots of folks ran with it despite it having no appearance in any LE statements.

 

[Fascinated1]

They reportedly locked their bedroom doors.

After they heard something that they thought was a party. I’m not convinced he knew they were there since they had gotten home earlier.

 

[General wooster]

No evidence for, or against from what we know

True! We actually know so little. What we think we know, is very different from what we actually know. Hence, so much circular conversation delving into person speculation based on very little Factual info.

 

[CityKid]

According to this article police say that E&X were present at the frat house from 9:00 PM to 1:45 am. The request for information is for who they talked to there, who they interacted with, what they did, ect not to question whether they were there since police know they were at the frat party all night.

Idaho murders: Police running down list of 22K Hyundais, seek 'anything abnormal' in frat party timeline

"Detectives continue investigating what occurred from approximately 9 p.m. on November 12th to 1:45 a.m. on November 13th, when Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle were believed to be at the Sigma Chi house on the University of Idaho Campus," police reiterated in a statement Thursday. "Any interactions, contacts, direction and method of travel, or anything abnormal could add context to what occurred."


This is a theory only, NOT FACT. Give it what weight you will.

It is possible that E&X returned home with someone at the stated time of 1:45 am and that person was there when K&M returned home at 1:56 AM. If K&M saw and knew this person was there, talked to him for a few minutes then went upstairs to bed they would have been witnesses to him being there that night. Since the 1st floor girls were already home at an earlier hour, 1:00 am and asleep they would not have been witnesses to this person being there that night.

In that scenario K&M would have to be killed as witnesses if this person attacked and killed E&X, while there would be no need for the 1st floor girls to be, since they had no knowledge of the perp being there.

It is entirely possible this person could have been someone invited home to party with E&X who was given permission to crash on the couch instead of walking home in the wee hours of the morning while intoxicated. It is entirely possible that earlier resentments or an earlier altercation could have spurred the guest to take action against E&X after continuing to drink after E&X had already went to bed.

Does any of this sound possible?

JMO NOT FACT.

I am very open to the thought that at least one person, among the 4 victims and 2 survivors, had friends/guests over that night.

 

[Aquarian]

Just a bit of info. I had a cop friend over last night and I asked said cop if they had ever been on a scene with a ton of blood. Friend cop said yes. I asked if they could smell the blood on scene. Friend cop said no. That some of the other cops can, but that friend cop never noticed a blood smell.

So I wouldn’t assume that a bloody scene would necessarily have a strong odor.

Agreed. Blood from the GI tract would be odorous a mile away, but I have not thought there would have been odor from general bleeding unless disturbed. MOO.

 

[PeteDC]

When you move states, should you change the plate on the car to match your new state of residence?

I'm not from the USA, my apologies.

Can't answer for all U.S. states but I am in Delaware (an eastern U.S. state) and you are required to change your vehicle title and registration within 60 days of becoming a resident of Delaware. When you change title and registration the new state will assess a transfer fee which is calcuated from the "fair value" of the vehicle. In short, it can be very expensive. Also your vehicle insurance company will want you to change your residence as insurance rates are quiet different from state to state.

There are exceptions such as people that have two residences and have declared another state as their home, university students and other transients.

 

[AngTxGal]

I just found it interesting that he chose to say “maybe there’s a car that isn’t there…” That sounds so specific to me. Like wouldn’t it be much more natural if just giving a random example to say “maybe there’s a car that’s there” rather than that ISN’T there?

IMO I thing such speculations are why investigations should be left up to investigators.
Any bit of info coming out to the public that is not carefully thought out from the investigators point of view has the potential to cause problems
Many problems are possible
-released info on an ongoing investigation to the perp that is at large
-compromise evidence
-cause the public to look away from a line of investigation due to rumors or info that is untrue or unclear or misinterpreted
-cause the perp to react to where or how or when the investigators are investigating- a weapon or car could be moved hidden or disposed of
-public bother witnesses, survivors, owners of cars not related

It is a cat and mouse game, and the parents or reporters or coroner or anyone involved giving info to the public is giving the mouse an advantage over the cat.
Yes, in this case I consider the perp the mouse. I’m hopeful that eventually the cat will get the mouse.

I wish PD/ DA/ Judge would employ some sort of Gag Order, or enforce some level of obstruction of justice charges during an ongoing investigation.
How much time and energy is expended protecting people and information from a public that is not on a Need to Know basis at all.

JMO

 

[OrlandoJames]

No evidence for, or against from what we know
True, but surely the burden of proof must sit with those making bold claims based on zero evidence, not those who are sceptical of such claims?

 

[CityKid]

I understand that's the basics, and typically what is assumed first, but LE has essentially ruled out everyone in their immediate and peripheral circles. Likewise, if it was anyone in their close circle or any tangential connections, the car owner would be pretty easily found. They probably wouldn't even have had to ask for the public's help in that regard.

My opinion.

I think the police wording makes it clear that some people in the victims' inner and outer circle are not believed to be involved at this point, but I wouldn't be surprised if their alibis and actions that night are still being scrutinized by LE.

 

[AngTxGal]

Agreed. Blood from the GI tract would be odorous a mile away, but I have not thought there would have been odor from general bleeding unless disturbed. MOO.

Yes, there is an odor from large amounts of blood out of the body contacting air.
Blood has iron in it that oxidizes, I’ve heard it described as having a metallic smell.
Some describe blood smelling like your hands after holding pocket change- copper pennies.

Each person contains about 1.5 gallons, or 5 liters.
If one body after heavy bleeding smells, imagine two in the same room, four in the same home.

This blood smell is not the smell of decomposition, which is the smell of death.
Fresh oxidized blood has its own smell distinctive of decomposition.

Could the survivors have smelled blood? Yes, that is a possibility
Would they have recognized the smell as that of blood? Not sure

JMO

 

[Aquarian]

Yes, there is an odor from large amounts of blood out of the body contacting air.
Blood has iron in it that oxidizes, I’ve heard it described as having a metallic smell.
Some describe blood smelling like your hands after holding pocket change- copper pennies.

Each person contains about 1.5 gallons, or 5 liters.
If one body after heavy bleeding smells, imagine two in the same room, four in the same home.

This blood smell is not the smell of decomposition, it is the smell of the blood itself.
Could the survivors have smelled blood? Yes, that is a possibility

JMO

Yes blood does have that odor. But as been discussed repeatedly, were the victims behind closed doors, under covers etc? We don’t know. I’m not sure they would smell anything simply coming out of their rooms unless there was some large scene in the living/kitchen area. I have had the the unpleasant experience to clean up tons of blood and as I said unless it was from the GI tract it didn’t really permeate the room. I think it depends what they really saw or came upon.

 

[fridaybaker]

Just want to add that on November 20 LE did add some more details about the 911 call :

There were additional people other than the two surviving roommates inside the house where four University of Idaho students were found stabbed to death at the time the 911 call was made, police revealed Sunday. According to Moscow Police Chief James Fry, the 911 call was made using one of those roommates' phones, but he would not confirm the caller's identity.

Police said Sunday they do not believe any of the people who were at the home when the 911 call was made are the killer. A week after the murders, police still have no suspect.

Fry on Sunday said police are not sure exactly how many people were in the home when the 911 call was placed, but that there were "other friends that had arrived at the location" present. He did not specify when they arrived.

Following the press conference, Moscow police said in a statement on Facebook that "the surviving roommates summoned friends to the residence" because they thought one of the victims had passed out and wasn't waking up. Several people spoke to the 911 dispatcher, police wrote.

Idaho college murders: "Other friends" were in the house when 911 call was made, police say

Police said the 911 call was made from one of the surviving roommates' phones, but would not confirm the identity of the caller.

www.cbsnews.com

I can’t understand this: What would be the reason Police Chief Fry “would not confirm the caller’s identity” after saying that the 911 call was made using one of the surviving roommate’s phones?

I’m sorry if this is old news, but I’m sort of going “back to the beginning” in this case. Why would LE want to protect the identity of the person making the call? Is this routine? Afraid the killer might come back for her? That doesn’t really wash with me, as the killer would really only care if there were witnesses, not who called it in, right? What other reasons would there be?

 

[The Observer]

I just found it interesting that he chose to say “maybe there’s a car that isn’t there…” That sounds so specific to me. Like wouldn’t it be much more natural if just giving a random example to say “maybe there’s a car that’s there” rather than that ISN’T there?

Considering that interview was 27th November it's highly probable families were already told of the car at that time.

Tie that in with LE asking for footage of days prior to the murders and the Chief talking about 'patterns'. All MOO.

 

[AngTxGal]

Yes blood does have that odor. But as been discussed repeatedly, were the victims behind closed doors, under covers etc? We don’t know. I’m not sure they would smell anything simply coming out of their rooms unless there was some large scene in the living/kitchen area. I have had the the unpleasant experience to clean up tons of blood and as I said unless it was from the GI tract it didn’t really permeate the room. I think it depends what they really saw or came upon.

The smells would also depend on ventilation, and temperature
We don’t know- a noise, smell, lack of response from yells, or something they saw.

It was a Sunday morning, no smell of coffee or bacon, no music, no talking, no walking around, no one doing laundry, no flushing toilets or running showers
Six-8 people in a house- someone would be a morning person

I think it was the deafening silence that was the first cause for concern
What else did they smell, or see, or hear? Who knows

JMO

 

[The Observer]

I’m sorry if this is old news, but I’m sort of going “back to the beginning” in this case. Why would LE want to protect the identity of the person making the call? Is this routine? Afraid the killer might come back for her? That doesn’t really wash with me, as the killer would really only care if there were witnesses, not who called it in, right? What other reasons would there be?

RS&BBM. Protecting the caller would be the reason. Imagine if LE state 'John Doe' made the call, you'd have the media and online people not only harrassing the person, but wildly speculating about them online. MOO.

We're talking about college kids that possibly saw 4 slain friends.