ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 36

[LizWords]

Having followed true crime all my life I have never heard of a murder in which the perp wore a wet suit, hazmat suit, or forensic booties. But anything's possible, I guess. Zodiac wore a freaky costume & mask at Lake Berryesa.

JMHO

There are a ton of examples where killers use protective apparel as a forensic counter measure. Here are a few off the top of my head:

Hollywood Ripper, wore forensic booties: The Chilling Details of the Murder of Ashley Ellerin and the "Hollywood Ripper" Trial - E! Online

Jake Patterson, abducted Jayme Closs after murdering her parents. Shaved his head to prevent forensic evidence: Accused Jayme Closs kidnapper shaved his head so he would not leave hair behind at her home, authorities say

Daniel Marsh, 15year old who duct taped his shoes and left virtually no forensic evidence after stabbing an elderly couple to death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Claudia_Maupin_and_Oliver_Northup

Every time I think the Moscow killer had to be super organized and experienced, I remember all the not-that-bright murderers who are able to successfully kill without leaving much forensic evidence behind. Some basic google searches or watching murder docus is really all people need to be able to take pretty extensive preventative measures in regards to leaving evidence...

 

[layer]

When I was a little kid, Son of Sam spent well over a year rampaging through my city, starting with stabbings, moving up to shootings and finally being caught through a parking ticket. This Moscow case is less than two months old and during that time students have come and gone for winter break, finals etc. I don't think this is enough time to think things are cold. MOO.

I never heard of Berkowitz stabbing anyone. In many ways it can be more difficult to catch a killer using a gun, especially a revolver that doesn't eject casings. Theoretically this case can be resolved fairly quickly, unless the killer was obsessively cautious.

 

[ktm44]

Agreed! I know this 1st hand. Hence my name here is

I lost a family member to murder and although the investigation was compromised, it was not because of witnesses.

Family members are strongly advised not to talk to witnesses and witnesses are strongly encouraged not to speak with each other, victims families or the media because it will compromise their testimony on court.


Edited to correct a typo

 

[SMK777]

It depends on where the DNA and fingerprints were found, and how they were left there. There has to be foreign DNA and fingerprints all over that house. Have you seen the noise complaint bodycam footage? The number of people that have wandered about in that house over the last couple of years, shedding hair and skin and touching stuff, has to be astronomical.

If they found foreign DNA in an incriminating location like mixed in with the victims blood or under their fingernails, or a bloody fingerprint, then they would still have to find the person that it matches. Unless the person that left the DNA or fingerprints is already in some database, that could be a tough nut to crack. We could be in for a long wait, even if the killer was "sloppy".

JMHO

Do you think they’ve gotten VOLUNTARY DNA samples from the many people in Moscow who were interviewed? (College students, fraternity guys, bar people, party guys,Grub Truck guys, Uber driver, workplace people, neighborhood people, etc, etc)
ETA: I realize there are strong, valid reasons NOT to give your DNA. I’m just recalling a case on Cape Cod where many, many people were asked (not ordered) to do so. Wondering what police have.

 

[layer]

Do you think they’ve gotten VOLUNTARY DNA samples from the many people in Moscow who were interviewed? (College students, fraternity guys, bar people, party guys,Grub Truck guys, Uber driver, workplace people, neighborhood people, etc, etc)
ETA: I realize there are strong, valid reasons NOT to give your DNA. I’m just recalling a case on Cape Cod where many, many people were asked (not ordered) to do so. Wondering what police have.

I'm sure they have at least asked anyone under suspicion for a swab, but I doubt they are doing more wide-scale testing so far. Considering the reluctance to have cameras in that town, I can easily imagine a reticence to supply random swabs.

They might not even have a sample to test against yet, unscrambling mixed blood samples to get the individual DNA sequences can be a tedious process.

JMHO

 

[SMK777]

I'm sure they have at least asked anyone under suspicion for a swab, but I doubt they are doing more wide-scale testing so far. Considering the reluctance to have cameras in that town, I can easily imagine a reticence to supply random swabs.

They might not even have a sample to test against yet, unscrambling mixed blood samples to get the individual DNA sequences can be a tedious process.

JMHO

No wonder it’s taking so long.

 

[Arkay]

When I was a little kid, Son of Sam spent well over a year rampaging through my city, starting with stabbings, moving up to shootings and finally being caught through a parking ticket. This Moscow case is less than two months old and during that time students have come and gone for winter break, finals etc. I don't think this is enough time to think things are cold. MOO.

I was 19 then and in his target demographic, so it seemed to me to take forever until that parking ticket and the witness who called police about a creepy guy who was walking in that area.

And Son of Sam was an attention-seeker, sending very weird letters to the police and to the famous reporter, Jimmy Breslin. He seemed to thrive on the publicity. Those letters sent the police in many different directions, but eventually were part of the evidence leading to the killer.

In this case, unless LE is withholding it, there seems to be no communication nor attempt at publicity from the murderer. Therefore IMO it will take quite awhile to solve, but I agree it isn't cold by any means.

Of course LE has DNA now which was not part of the LE arsenal in 1977. There's an awful lot for LE to wade through, though.

The addition of the FBI and ISP to the small-town MPD is essential, IMO, and I'm very happy they're working together.

Merry Christmas and happy Chanukah to everyone.

 

[rahod1]

I think that taking off shoes would leave lots of evidence.
Fibres of socks with skin dead cells/sweat (DNA) and also so called "touch DNA" .

JMO

Agree. Bare feet would be a HUGE mistake for reasons stated. Leaving on socks would be a *traction problem* (slipping on hardwood floor). Sock fiber shouldn't be a problem, since they could easily be discarded later, making tracing them to killer problematic. Wearing shoes could leave prints, but they would also be discarded, again making it very problematic to trace back to killer. I recall the OJ case with LE trying to link shoe prints of Bruno Mali shoes left at crime scene by killer. They only *put them* on OJs feet at the Civil Trial, when they finally showed pics of him wearing those shoes at a football game!

 

[Trino]

Never knew what to make of this, because over 40 days and the “mess” hasn’t led to a POI, much less an arrest.​

Univ. of Idaho killer was ‘sloppy,’ left ‘mess’ of evidence, victim’s family says​

Univ. of Idaho killer was ‘sloppy,’ left ‘mess’ of evidence, victim’s family says

The investigation into the brutal stabbing deaths of four University of Idaho students has stalled one week after the unspeakable tragedy due to the massive “mess” of evidence left behi…

nypost.com

Family said this. If the killer left a mess of evidence, what is it? Where is it? Why is the only "maybe" evidence the Elantra?

 

[debbiediablo]

I wondered why at this point she did this. It puts the focus right back on him. Just Imo

My opinion is the G family wants this to remain in the news and in the minds of the public, to not go cold. So every few days someone speaks to the media.

 

[Trino]

No wonder it’s taking so long.

Check online - easy to find. DNA forensic tests can be done from 90 minutes to 2 days to 10 days. Not a long process.

 

[Charlot123]

Appreciate the posting!
Sometimes a significant other fits perfectly on paper and with families.
Families follow our lead and fall in love with them just as we do. Love and commitment may change and we move on, but our family maintains a relationship.

K took a job out of state, to me that signifies a readiness to move forWard. Maybe with or maybe without JD. Idk
IMO if someone was hurt here, it was JD
Men react and handle hurt differently than young women.
Typically they don’t talk, they hold it in.

For people considering JD out of his league with K, they are seeing the boy and not the man.
He is a mechanical engineering major. That is a rigorous pursuit.
Near Thanksgiving profs give a third exam, the last exam prior to the final exam.
He may have been hold up studying for days, exhausted, with projects and exams soon heading into finals.
I don‘t know him, but my dad, brother, and sig other are engineers- so I’m biased.
We do know…
- K and M called JD that night
- the timing of the calls were not long before their deaths
- JD did not answer the phone.
I cannot imagine his sense of responsibility, What if he had answered the phone? He likely has played that out a million times and it will weigh on him for the rest of his life.

JMO

I wish I could like your post five times! To add to it, I always thought that static photographs don't reflect how genuinely attractive some people could be IRL. One has to see the person in motion, listen to them. I feel horribly sorry for this young man, for so many reasons. I hope he has good support of his family and friends.

 

[SMK777]

Family said this. If the killer left a mess of evidence, what is it? Where is it? Why is the only "maybe" evidence the Elantra?

Yes, but family said they were told this by investigators.

 

[SMK777]

Check online - easy to find. DNA forensic tests can be done from 90 minutes to 2 days to 10 days. Not a long process.

Yes, but I meant the part about having to unravel all the mixed evidence.

 

[Trino]

Agree in part.
First: There is no indication that the knife was serrated.
Second: That it was a KA-BAR (only the suggestion based on the statement of a sales clerk that said he was questioned by investigators).
Third: We really have no way of knowing whether or not LE has a clue who is responsible, only that charges haven't been brought yet.
But I do agree that it was planned.

JMHO

Idaho Stateman Dec 1 2022 originally published story. Story included the term "serrated." It was not a sales clerk but the store's general manager who stated this.

Scott Jutte, general manager of Moscow Building Supply, told the Idaho Statesman that police have visited the store more than once to ask whether the retailer sold anyone Ka-Bar brand knives, which are also known as K bar knives.

Read more at: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article268833397.html#storylink=cpy

 

[CityKid]

I was 19 then and in his target demographic, so it seemed to me to take forever until that parking ticket and the witness who called police about a creepy guy who was walking in that area.

And Son of Sam was an attention-seeker, sending very weird letters to the police and to the famous reporter, Jimmy Breslin. He seemed to thrive on the publicity. Those letters sent the police in many different directions, but eventually were part of the evidence leading to the killer.

In this case, unless LE is withholding it, there seems to be no communication nor attempt at publicity from the murderer. Therefore IMO it will take quite awhile to solve, but I agree it isn't cold by any means.

Of course LE has DNA now which was not part of the LE arsenal in 1977. There's an awful lot for LE to wade through, though.

The addition of the FBI and ISP to the small-town MPD is essential, IMO, and I'm very happy they're working together.

Merry Christmas and happy Chanukah to everyone.

Terrifying! I don't think he would've gotten away with it now as long as he did back then, especially the taunting letters, if DNA had been around as a tool. But in general, cases like this are why I'm not concerned about the pace of this investigation. I think it might be hard to really lock down the killer(s) via DNA if they'd previously spent time in this house, and it only takes one juror to hang a jury, so I'm fine if they take their time and make the best possible case.

 

[Charlot123]

Possibly representative of the state's demographics.

Might be economic considerations as well. Cost of tuition in UI is higher than in WASU that is really 15 min drive. This, too, might dictate the choice. In WASU, the percent of Hispanics is 13%, with basically equal percentage of Hispanics in WA and ID (13 and 12%, respectively). In Eastern University, with financial support and scholarships, the Hispanics make 19%.

 

[ktm44]

Family said this. If the killer left a mess of evidence, what is it? Where is it? Why is the only "maybe" evidence the Elantra?

LE does not share evidence with the public. The end goal is a conviction in court not satisfying public curiosity.

 

[layer]

Idaho Stateman Dec 1 2022 originally published story. Story included the term "serrated." It was not a sales clerk but the store's general manager who stated this.

Scott Jutte, general manager of Moscow Building Supply, told the Idaho Statesman that police have visited the store more than once to ask whether the retailer sold anyone Ka-Bar brand knives, which are also known as K bar knives.

Read more at: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article268833397.html#storylink=cpy

Sales clerk, general manager... either way it's never been specified by LE. In fact, from the article you linked:

Idaho State Police spokesperson Aaron Snell told the Statesman on Thursday that detectives visited several local hardware stores that may carry “fixed-blade type knives,” but that they weren’t solely asking about Ka-Bar knives.

As far as serrated goes, even the KA-BAR knife they show in that article has a non-serrated blade. The word only appears in Jutte's general description of what a KA-BAR knife is; it has nothing to do with what LE asked him.

He also claims that they are “similar to the knife Rambo has." KA-BAR never made any Rambo style survival knives. They have a hollow hilt used to store junk like fishing lines etc, basically a novelty item as far removed from a real combat knife like a KA-BAR as you can get.

This man is undoubtedly the source of more misinformation in this case than any other single individual, rivaling social media rumor mongers.

JMHO

ETA:
A lot of people were led down the path of thinking that the murder weapon had to be a KA-BAR, a Rambo style knife with a serrated edge. It was widely reported and commented on early on in this case. It's just incorrect.
Sorry if I came off as a jerk.

 

[layer]

Not if you don't know whose DNA it is. And Idaho doesn't take fingerprints for driver's licenses. If the person is a felon, they'd likely be in CODIS and therefore identified - clearly that isn't the case here.

Presumably, if they DO have DNA, it must be from the intimate zone around the killings and not just associated with one of the many people who had been in the house. Otherwise, DNA isn't going to lead them very far (a point I keep trying to make - which is that there's likely touch DNA from dozens of people inside the house, not all of whom are known to the roommates who survived).

What they need is good evidence that this person did the murder, and then the DNA/fingerprints will bolster the case.

If there's one strong DNA profile in each of the murder rooms, commingled with crime scene elements like blood, that could help more - it can give LE ideas about phenotypes the killer might have (hair color, eye color, ancestry) but most of the time that's not enough to catch someone. And that's presuming that the killer did something really sloppy - like cut himself. If it's all fragmentary DNA, it will be a long slow process to put it into use.

OTOH, if the evidence points to someone known to the housemates (any of them), then the DNA will be of any less use in court (unless it is collected in a manner very obviously connected to homicide, such as a glove that was both sliced in the attack and then lost; or a ski mask left behind).

If I'm not mistaken, you have actually been involved in the collection of DNA swabs from suspects in criminal cases. I should have just directed my response to you.