ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[MountainDad]

I thought I'd point out that we have no idea if the girls were calling attention to themselves in some way at the bar (maybe a little loud, maybe one had gotten to the point where they started stumbling more than the average person, etc) So maybe their actions were such that it cause more than this guy to notice, but he's the only one quoted. A lot of people who might have seen something will talk to LE and that is it. No interviews.

Some of Maddie's behavior in the grub truck video would be considered inconsiderate (walking between people who are talking instead of going around the group), and that is often indicative of being drunk or just having poor manners. If it wasn't a normal thing for people to do that, it would stand out. No one else there did it.

It's not necessarily obsessive to notice things that are out of the ordinary and in your face. Again, we have no idea of the behavior at the bar.

I thought the male(no defining characteristic) at the food truck was not involved per LE?

 

[hopewell]

I suspect they have a line on the car and owner, just not proof on the occupants at that time in question. They are hoping that there might be someone who saw the cars occupants and can ID them. They may have the license plate and are not releasing it to avoid harassment for the owner. If owner not involved, need no harassment, if owner is involved, need to not scare them into running. JMO.

If they have a line on the car and the owner is known, they would be relentlessly interviewing him/her to find out who was driving the car during those times. They wouldn't be worried about scaring him/her into running if they had such an advantage of surprise. Unless the car was reported stolen prior to the crimes, one can deduce that the owner is at a minimum holding vital information about the driver.

My opinion.

 

[10ofRods]

It's possible, but how probable? IMO if more than one person is involved (local or not) they arrived and left together. The alternative complicates things.

It's improbable and it does complicate things (having multiple people involved in the killings). ALL MOO.

However, this is a highly unusual crime. Since most of this thread has been speculation about various combinations of motive and opportunity, I thought I'd SPECULATE and chime in about scenarios I haven't seen discussed much.

What it someone had a secret? Let's say the secret involved something illegal or highly disreputable or simply very private? What if one of the four victims learned this secret and the secret-keeper believes they told their friend group and that they're being gossiped about? What if they are being gossiped about? This person could be a frat boy (more on that below) or a sorority sister. This person could have a loyal defender (who is also, for lack of a better word, crazy aggressive and aggro). We have spoken of Neighbor Wars, because we all know that occasionally neighbors kill each other (or even more than one person) over petty things (petty to us). But there can be other kinds of social networks that result in violence - rare, of course, but I believe we'll eventually learn that this rare crime does have reasons behind it (from the killer or killers' points of view).

What if someone had a longterm drug problem? (NOT the victims - the perpetrator). What if the drugs included various combinations of meth (common enough in a college community) and some of the hallucinogens that college students are so into these days? What if a person spent a lot of their waking time fantasizing about violence and killing? They go on the internet and learn about weaponry, how to kill. The meth makes them feel invincible and indeed, meth can temporarily improve certain aspects of performance (like speed), but its ability to give artificial grandiosity and purpose to a user is well known. In the ER, when a person comes in under the influence of meth, almost no one can immediately tell the difference between their mental states, and a manic person - or a schizophrenic person. Psychoses can look very much alike. I haven't done research in an ER in over a decade, but when I did, of the possibilities here in the Los Angeles area, it was almost always meth causing the psychosis (not mental illness - but that did occur as well). And it was common. I was also working in jails at the same time, and we saw a lot of people go straight from a violent situation in their neighborhoods to jail - under the influence of meth. Knife waving, cutting self and others, stabbings (including of police officers), attempted stabbings (often aimed at police), etc. Most were on meth. Some were just mentally ill or drunk. Drunk + meth is a terrible combo.

Third scenario: Frat Boys. Sorry to say, but frat boys do occasionally commit crimes (often under the influence of alcohol or drugs). Some of the crimes are minor (hazing) and some are major (hazing again - because surely even frat boys know that they can kill someone with alcohol, asphyxiation (sitting on chests), or...soy sauce.

Okay, so the soy sauce didn't actually end in a death, but it came close:

Soy Sauce Overdose Nearly Killed University of Virginia Student

A young man at a frat party ingested a quart of soy sauce on a dare and began having seizures when his friends rushed him to the ER.

www.universityherald.com

Here's a link to one of the worst fraternity based crime stories:

What We Know About the 37 Frat Guys Facing Charges for the Hazing Death of a 19-Year-Old

Five men will face murder charges over a 2013 incident where a college freshman was beaten up while walking blindfolded across a frozen yard in the Pennsylvania mountains.

www.vice.com

And another:

Penn State fraternity hazing scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The degree of cover-up that can happen in a frat is actually mind-boggling.

(There are way more examples over the past century - but the past decade is enough to peruse if you get interested in frat crime - there's always the Cannibal Face Eating Frat Boy who, of course, was on drugs).

-------
Having written all that, I am not any closer to a real scenario, except that I do believe this could be either an individual or more than one individual. If more than one individual, my money is on it being related to Greek life/frats/sororities. Both sororities involved in this story were on probation for hazing. Sigma Chi was in good standing, but there had been general hazing issues on campus over the past 7-8 years.

I believe that everything from crazed psycho killer to "personal reasons" killer should still be on the table. And while it seems very odd to me that there would be more than one killer or that the killer had some kind of car or back-up at the scene, I can't discount that either.

My hope is that the killer is not a loner, as they will be very hard to find. If no one knows them well, no one knows they had a certain type knife, no one ever knows that person's whereabouts and they don't always carry a cell phone, it's very depressing. But LE seems optimistic and I still believe they've had a short list of possibilities since Day 1 and that they're still working those leads. I'm guessing the siblings of EC would know quite a bit about EC's situation. If K was the actual target, unfortunately her BFF died with her. A rando who had studied the neighborhood and zeroed in on this house, on that night, is going to be very hard to find.

MOO

 

[emstar8777]

The house plan could be found online (Zillow, etc) once the address was known. The address could be found pretty easily via social media since location markers in many of the apps they used in their public profiles were in real time. Indeed, a person anonymously stalking them online from afar could know exactly where they were at pretty much any time.

If the perp was local, the car would've almost certainly been identified by now. Maybe not found, but identified.

<modsnip - rumor>

My opinion.

But that's assuming they arrived or left by car when it may have been by foot. We don't absolutely know the owner of the white car did it, only that they're right in the spot where things went down, or that they could've seen something. There's tons of woodland, trails, you could leave, change clothes in the woods, and hike to the nearest bus/train stop. It really might not be a driver.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Nope. Just that he and XK had been over at Sigma Chi all evening, where there was a large party. That's the current timeline, as I understand it (at first LE was asking for help reconstructing their whereabouts from 9-1:45 but now I believe it's public and MSM that they were at the Sigma Chi party).

RSBM

I have seen the question asked several times but have not seen an answer -- didn't Ethan *live* at the Sigma Chi house? If so, then he and X could have been partying or could have just been hanging out in his room, or some combination (including maybe going elsewhere as we don't know their timeline).

I agree it's *statistically likely* he was drinking, as a generality, but if he lived there then his presence in the frat house doesn't automatically imply "there to party".

MOO

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

In am, as someone who has also worked in mental health, of the same opinion and am going to have to concur. Most of my work was not forensic, but some of the early work was. A personality disorder, perhaps -- antisocial, borderline, obessive-compulsive pd, schizotypical, schizoid, schizotypical, histrionic and dependant thinking could give some good motives for murder, but substance abuse, while not incomptable with those, was not likely to be out of control on the night of the murders (there are exceptions of course where people have done some organized murders while on psyedelics).

But... all that said, we might not want to speculate on PDs because, in my opinion, plenty of people without PDs kill people for pretty less exotic reasons, and most people with PDs are more likely to be victims who do not harm a soul.

I’ve been taught that a PD is a personality disorder such as a psychopath, which is untreatable. Whereas people suffering from mental health disorders such as Schizophrenia can be treated (though not cured) and it’s they who are usually harmless and have more chance of being hurt themselves.

Someone with a PD (psychopath) has no empathy and can kill easily. Nearly all mass murderers are psychopaths, that’s established.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

If you aren't sure if a source is approved, please seek approval before discussing any of the content. It makes thread cleanup so much more difficult and time-consuming when Mods have to go through pages and pages of posts to remove the OP and all the responses, and responses to those responses, etc.

Just as an example, yesterday out of many, many pages of Reports, just 2 pages alone were 40 Reports with 38 of them relating to this discussion alone. Mods are swamped with this discussion. Please don't make things more difficult for them.

Thank you.

ETA: Also, please move on from the discussion as to whether E was or was not drunk as there is nothing to substantiate either way. It is speculation that is not based on any known fact, and is not victim friendly. As per TOS:

"Discussing known victim behavior, good or bad is fine, but do so in a civil and constructive way, and only when such behavior is known to be relevant to the case."

The qualifying word in the above is "known".

 

[Jawds78]

It appears that the third floor was the target. It appears that the second floor was killed because they were witnesses. 1st floor were not whitenesses so we’re not killed. Perhaps someone who was jealous and could see in the window just decided to act out in a fit of rage. I think that he just got lucky that the local LE were not staffed to handle such a case with absolute precision and integrity from the very beginning. Simple as that. He may get caught but it will be from luck or him making another mistake. He will not be caught from LE investigation tactics. How often have you heard.. police crack a 25 year old murder mystery. And the “Crack” had nothing to do with investigative tactics. It’s simply someone who knew who just decided to confess or overhear something decades later. IMHOO

To be fair they call in FBI almost immediately and then later added more officers. I do not think LE on any level are going to let this sit. MOO

 

[Jawds78]

Yeah, but entering a home with five cars in front and not knowing the way around the house, don't know a random stalker would do that. The killer already took a lot of risk, but this would even bring it to a whole new level.

Just my 2, wouldn't a random killer pick a house closer to a main road? Like you mentioned, this is pretty much taking a risk on this one. I believe that says something. MOO

 

[3FrenchHens]

ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 36

IMO yes I do, and for good reason. Why would they say otherwise? Right, that’s what I was hoping. Otherwise it would mean that they haven’t really made much progress in 40 days.

www.websleuths.com

ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 36

IMO yes I do, and for good reason. Why would they say otherwise? Right, that’s what I was hoping. Otherwise it would mean that they haven’t really made much progress in 40 days.

www.websleuths.com

All in My Opinion Only.
Circling back to add clarification. I appreciated (still do) the feedback and ask for openness to mine.
-You (and all other members) selected a certain sorority for a certain reason. That includes self-awareness, social identification, posturing, etc. Doubtful you will ever know what the other sororities said about you/your group. The different sororities likely had different reputations and association with specific other campus organizations and/or fraternities. Each person’s situation is unique, yet the greek systems' dynamics seem to trend across campuses. JMO
-Easy to understand that a member can share the 'secret book' and/or the organization's confidential information. That is very different than divulging the indiscretions, secrets, dealings, and other private matters of another 'brother' or 'sister.' Most members won't volunteer information and some actually ‘cover’ for each other. How would you know what he didn't tell you? JMO

Some criminal cases with fraternity brothers end with Guilty pleas. No witness testimony or secrets shared. Guessing (only) that very few know the details. IMOO.

IMO
It could be that there is an investigation running parallel with the one being discussed herein.
That explains the LE’s various word selections (eg 'trends') and 2 BAU units on-site; and allows simplification of the details, like knowledge of house, occupants, schedules, parties, neighborhood, timing, weapon, and no one apprehended. Could be that someone does know a hint of something, behind the organizations' walls, whether/not a member, just damage control. It must be very challenging to obtain the information, connect it, and confirm it across the subcultural network. Just food for thought. IMOO. Much respect and trust for the LEs.

All four (4) victims were members of a greek-letter organization at one time or another, a unique characteristic compared to the other cases mentioned throughout.
Next post will have information and references about sororities/fraternities and fraternity lawsuits to support the significance of this factor related to speculation on how the case is going and why it may be taking so long.
All JMO. IMO. MOO.

 

[10ofRods]

I agree with this analysis; and further, as I have stated before, I don't think the car in the video was an Elantra, I think it was a Nissan Sentra. If so, the cops are stumbling down the wrong alley.

It may be that this is only solved with DNA....if it is ever solved.

LE has not released any video footage of the car.

They say they have neighbor cam video, but have not released it.

If you're speaking of the underage drinking body cam video from the night of the murders, LE has stated that the car in that clip is not the car they are referring to.

The details are on the media thread. So we have no way of knowing exactly which images LE is using in this quest, nor how many people they could see inside the car.

The gas station video may or may not be the car that's sought after - LE has not confirmed.

Idaho police debunk rumours around car seen in bodycam on night of student murders

Investigators have determined that all the details associated with bodycam of the unrelated incident, including cars captured on it, are not related to the murders

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Ghostwheel]

If they have a line on the car and the owner is known, they would be relentlessly interviewing him/her to find out who was driving the car during those times. They wouldn't be worried about scaring him/her into running if they had such an advantage of surprise. Unless the car was reported stolen prior to the crimes, one can deduce that the owner is at a minimum holding vital information about the driver.

My opinion.

I respectfully disagree. That isn't how any investigation I have been involved in or followed works, at the very least. If the car was reported stolen, the owner would have no idea. If someone returned from a trip and their car was still there but the odometer was higher, they'd have no idea who drove it. If there are people who ID'd the people in the car and it wasn't the owners or anyone the owners know, the owners could not help (say a kid let a friend drive the car he uses but his parents own or someone "borrowed" the car without the kids knowledge.) LE would follow that until the end,, but it could take some time.. You can deduce anything you want, but if you can't prove something it is useless. LE can ask for interviews, but if you aren't charged with anything, you don't have to give one, and certainly not multiple interviews.

In my experience and IMO.

 

[Ghostwheel]

I thought the male(no defining characteristic) at the food truck was not involved per LE?

Help me understand. I didn't think I posted anything about anyone being involved. Which part of my post were you referring to?

 

[hopewell]

It's improbable and it does complicate things (having multiple people involved in the killings). ALL MOO.

However, this is a highly unusual crime. Since most of this thread has been speculation about various combinations of motive and opportunity, I thought I'd SPECULATE and chime in about scenarios I haven't seen discussed much.

What it someone had a secret? Let's say the secret involved something illegal or highly disreputable or simply very private? What if one of the four victims learned this secret and the secret-keeper believes they told their friend group and that they're being gossiped about? What if they are being gossiped about? This person could be a frat boy (more on that below) or a sorority sister. This person could have a loyal defender (who is also, for lack of a better word, crazy aggressive and aggro). We have spoken of Neighbor Wars, because we all know that occasionally neighbors kill each other (or even more than one person) over petty things (petty to us). But there can be other kinds of social networks that result in violence - rare, of course, but I believe we'll eventually learn that this rare crime does have reasons behind it (from the killer or killers' points of view).

Revenge kills are typically committed with a more private (re: solo) opportunity to kill the object of hate. Likewise, even if this was a 'spur of the moment and rage-based' revenge kill, and the perp just couldn't wait for a private opportunity, there would almost certainly be evidence everywhere. Furthermore, any real connection to the victims, even if tangential, would've likely been identified by now.

What if someone had a longterm drug problem? (NOT the victims - the perpetrator). What if the drugs included various combinations of meth (common enough in a college community) and some of the hallucinogens that college students are so into these days? What if a person spent a lot of their waking time fantasizing about violence and killing? They go on the internet and learn about weaponry, how to kill. The meth makes them feel invincible and indeed, meth can temporarily improve certain aspects of performance (like speed), but its ability to give artificial grandiosity and purpose to a user is well known. In the ER, when a person comes in under the influence of meth, almost no one can immediately tell the difference between their mental states, and a manic person - or a schizophrenic person. Psychoses can look very much alike. I haven't done research in an ER in over a decade, but when I did, of the possibilities here in the Los Angeles area, it was almost always meth causing the psychosis (not mental illness - but that did occur as well). And it was common. I was also working in jails at the same time, and we saw a lot of people go straight from a violent situation in their neighborhoods to jail - under the influence of meth. Knife waving, cutting self and others, stabbings (including of police officers), attempted stabbings (often aimed at police), etc. Most were on meth. Some were just mentally ill or drunk. Drunk + meth is a terrible combo.

People who murder under a state of psychosis - drug induced or no - and/or heavy intoxication do so messily and are generally caught pretty quickly.

Third scenario: Frat Boys. Sorry to say, but frat boys do occasionally commit crimes (often under the influence of alcohol or drugs). Some of the crimes are minor (hazing) and some are major (hazing again - because surely even frat boys know that they can kill someone with alcohol, asphyxiation (sitting on chests), or...soy sauce.

Not saying a frat boy can't mass murder, but to me it is unlikely that it was a frat boy in this case simply because if there was a mere tangential connection to either/all of the victims or the car, he would almost certainly be behind bars by now.

My opinion.

 

[10ofRods]

Was she not living at n Moscow at the time of her death?

I haven’t been following closely enough.

According to her parents, she had moved back home about 10 days before her death.

She came back to Moscow (according to her parents) for a party at her (former) sorority on Friday night, I believe, and to show her best friend, Maddie, her new-to-her car (a 2016 Range Rover, IIRC).

It's just strange that she started out in mid-August as a campus-based student, with a lease, but decided to leave. It just keeps popping up in my mind that perhaps she was scared. Of something. I know from being the parent of two daughters that, at that age, they want to handle everything themselves without telling parents all the details.

Good to see you here, Gitana! Hope life is treating you well.

 

[jgarris]

Obviously (and rightfully so) LE is very tight lipped on what they may or may not know.

Some thoughts that have come across my mind lately.

1) Based on the timing of the white car and the direction of travel, I think it’s apparent that *this* is the suspect. If that is true, I side more on a targeted attack vs crime of opportunity. The timing is way too lined up to be a crime of opportunity. With that in mind, I think there’s circles of people to consider - those in/around the bar that evening, the fraternity house, family/friends, OR drivers taking people home from the bar that night. This is not indicative of the driver that took them home but any others that may be dropping in nearby areas.

2) I’m sure they already have, but I’d be really keen to know who left the bar/food truck after them. I’m sure cameras abound nearby and again, based on timing, I am confident this is someone who knew they would be home. They would only know from knowledge of them leaving or presuming they would be home that time.

3) I’d be curious to see data of rides from out of town to Moscow that early morning. I believe the car was ditched somewhere difficult to located, but I think the driver is from the Moscow area and had to have a way back home…

All just my thoughts, but I think it’s going to be someone mentioned in their circles (wether close or aquantice) that did this.

 

[MountainDad]

Help me understand. I didn't think I posted anything about anyone being involved. Which part of my post were you referring to?

Apologies ghostwheel. Quoted wrong person. The spirit of my post was to point out that LE cleared a male at the food truck. There were many males at food truck

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Clipped by me to respond specifically and not fill an entire ws page. everything here is JMI IMO IMI.

There's only two roads leading out of the whole area - through Taylor Ave where there are a bunch of cameras or Walenta Dr from which there are only two real "escape routes" from. The rest are dead ends. This speaks volumes as to the knowledge of the killer of the area to me. He either lives there, has lived there or knows the area very well (parties and such).

IMO you're right if the killer drove right up to the door, then Taylor/Walenta would have been the only options, but they could have parked on Linda lane and walked from there IMO, or they could have lived in the area and walked (I don't subscribe to this one, but ICBW).

IMO there are actually four main roads, and those are the ones cited by LE for their request: https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24740/11-19-22-Moscow-Video-Collection-Map

IMO If the killer parked and walked from the arboretum, for ex, they could have slipped into the neighborhood on Palouse river dr and left the same way. If they'd come from the east of 95, they could have crossed at styner/Lauder, parked on boyde, etc. And honestly, imo I could find my way out of there now having spent far too much time with the maps and possible escape routes. I could probably give tours of the area lol. IMO Taylor would have been the riskiest b/c of the aforementioned cameras.


Clipped by me to respond specifically and not fill an entire ws page. everything here is JMI IMO IMI.

Was day and time of the attack carefully selected in advance? No classes on Sunday, fewer people around at 3am. An all-night party at the house could have spoiled the plan.

IMO the murders for the targets were planned, but not the date IMO. IMO the killer stalked/monitored several ways, and I think that the killer took the opportunity and was ready to go and confident. IMO the killer knew the window of opportunity was closing (holiday, change in weather, roommates leaving, etc.). IMO the killer was lucky because 'luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.'


Clipped by me to respond specifically and not fill an entire ws page. everything here I JMI IMO IMI.

There were stolen panties that are exactly like the kind of crimes I wondered if our perp had done before, hopefully with a record. I think stealing panties is kind of a sexual crime, and it's obviously B&E.

Do you have a stolen panties link? When I was in college, a woman was murdered (lying in wait, stabbing, etc.) and he had gone through her laundry and she had missing undergarments iirc, so stolen panties would be concerning imo jmo.

Clipped by me to respond specifically and not fill an entire ws page. everything here I JMI IMO IMI.

Most people are not at their best at 3 am, though, drunk or not. And we don't know the order of events, so it's possible that Ethan was the first victim (if someone had watched the house and knew a man was inside).

JMO but I believe E&X were killed first. IMO E was the biggest threat, therefore required the most 'surprise'. IMO IF E&X were asleep and surprised, the killer would have had a real advantage and it would have not been as risky. Stab E in the chest, puncture the lung, another couple of well-placed plunges, even if E tried to fight back, he couldn't for long. X was small, and even if she fought back, IMO easy to overcome. And IMO even if the bedroom below did hear scuffling or even a subtle cry, it could easily be dismissed as 'couple in love'.

Also, IMO, completing my 2nd floor mission first gave me opportunity to sit and wait. IMO If I'd failed at that point, I'd have had multiple avenues for escape (sliding door, front door, third floor sliding and jump). IMO Once second floor was subdued, I'd have waited for sounds below and made sure I was safe to move upstairs. IMO I could easily sit and listen and still go out the window in X's room. In fact, IMO I would have unlocked it and been ready to leap while I waited. IMO going to the third floor first would have been riskier because if K&M had made too much noise, I'd have potentially had to overcome four people and four phones on the way out. Also, my exit plans wold have been more limited & could have been foiled.

Everything here is JMI IMO IMI, but not wild speculation, just an application of the few facts we know filtered through my own opinion after evaluation of the known facts. Known facts include: police map, map of Moscow, four people killed in two bedrooms (potentially - this from SG not LE), killings done with a knife, two roommates and a dog left alive, layout/floorplan of house, and time/location of killings.

 

[CityKid]

In the "Like, I told Adam everything" video...wasn't that hoodie guy aka JS walking with them? In the timeline when was that video taken? After the food truck and before the Uber?

I'm not sure HG's identity has been revealed, but that video was on the walk from Corner Club to the food truck.

 

[Tillyjames]

According to her parents, she had moved back home about 10 days before her death.

She came back to Moscow (according to her parents) for a party at her (former) sorority on Friday night, I believe, and to show her best friend, Maddie, her new-to-her car (a 2016 Range Rover, IIRC).

It's just strange that she started out in mid-August as a campus-based student, with a lease, but decided to leave. It just keeps popping up in my mind that perhaps she was scared. Of something. I know from being the parent of two daughters that, at that age, they want to handle everything themselves without telling parents all the details.

Good to see you here, Gitana! Hope life is treating you well.

Or maybe after the break up she was having a hard time and wanted to be home, MOO (really just a possible scenario) I do agree it’s a bit strange she was home at that time so close to end of school year