ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[sunshineray]

IMO it would be unlikely for college students to pay for a cleaning service, but I don't know about the frats

I would think so also but if my house was regularly filled with kids, using the bathrooms especially, I don't think I'd want to always be cleaning up afterwards. Having a cleaning service come in a couple times a month, on a Monday, for an hour and a half would sound like money well spent to me. Just a thought.

 

[10ofRods]

Doesn't K appear to taking a video or photos behind her at one point while waiting at the Grub Truck?

She's taking a picture of another woman, they seem to know each other or are friendly after just meeting. I think it might be a selfie with that woman.

 

[layer]

IMO it would be unlikely for college students to pay for a cleaning service, but I don't know about the frats

I was thinking more along the lines of the property manager.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I’d agree with you but there are countless cases where people come in under the guise of just offering information and things quickly get turned around on them.

If you’re claiming that this Elantra is strictly a witness and there’s no possible way that they are a suspect then we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Which is fine with me.

1. There are countless cases where the 'guise' ends up with evidence suppressed. There are plenty of examples on both sides of this. Miranda and custodial interrogation are grey areas and lots of case law to argue both sides. I am not arguing with you, I'm presenting add'l facts for consideration. "Custody" and "interrogation" are required for miranda, BUT the definitions of those two terms are not as simple as they might seem. Miranda Warning

2. Idk what the HE driver/owner is. I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing. I'm saying that from a risk standpoint, if the HE is a suspect, they'd be really stupid to go to LE.

 

[CLGM]

Thinking about other kinds of electronic evidence that LE could obtain (and probably has obtained) from the victims’ phones, devices (Alexa, for example), smart watches, etc.

Sleep monitoring apps - some monitor sleeping (talking about the non-wearable ones that use the phone microphones) - sounds in the rooms. Do the apps record the sounds? If so, are they stored by the company? Can they be obtained?

Alexa, Siri, etc. - they can listen for a variety of commands and id you have an iPhone, you know how easy it can be to summon Siri without meaning to. Does LE seek this kind of data in crimes like this?

Also, it occurs to me that the police know exactly where E and X were, between their two phones and all the given apps with location access. IMO (Which apps would LE request records for? Some? All?)

 

[schooling]

Hazing is included in the announcement:

Idaho murders: Victims' sororities on probation for 'health and safety' violations

The two sororities to which three of the slain University of Idaho students belonged are on disciplinary probation, according to community accountability records.

www.q13fox.com

Of 10 sororities recognized by the University of Idaho, Alpha Phi and Pi Beta Phi are the only two listed as on probation for health and safety reasons, which refers to "violations or concerns regarding risk management, alcohol/drugs, or hazing."

I went to a 30k student population major state university / party school (consistently on the playboy top 10 list) and we always had 2 to 3 fraternities suspended or on probation for various reasons (loud parties, underage drinking, hazing, disorderly house etc). It’s not as uncommon as it might seem.

 

[TooMuchGun]

Interview with Ellen O’Toole, former FBI BAU

2 days ago

About Mary Ellen O’Toole, Ph.D. | Mary Ellen O'Toole, Ph.D.

maryellenotoole.com

MEOT is my favorite profiler

 

[sunshineray]

The 50 warrants is being overblown in my humble opinion.

Just getting various types of cell phone location data from the 4 victims might have been 8 to 12 warrants. Then add in 1 for each social media account. Etc etc. and you very quickly get to your 50.

It was stated as "more than 50" and that was in the first 3 weeks. I'm sure many were as you've said but that's still a lot, IMO. I wonder what the count is up to now.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Edit: after reading your post we’re not disagreeing at all. But that doesn’t change my opinion that LE is purposely using diffusing language with this perp. If they got on a bullhorn and yelled “this is the murder car!” And had no plate, no vin, no owner information it would cause a public panic and they’d likely never see the car again.

yay! bad habit of mine to see both sides of the argument, but I think it's important to consider things from LE, perp, defense etc. POV to cover the bases. And heck to the yeah on what LE is doing with the language IMO too. Just wondering what the killer will do with it. Some killers are Candy Land level, some are checkers, some are chess - and it remains to be seen what this one is. JMO

 

[10ofRods]

I went to a 30k major state university / party school (consistently on the playboy top 10 list) and we always had 2 to 3 fraternities suspended or on probation for various reasons (loud parties, underage drinking, hazing, disorderly house etc). It’s not as uncommon as it might seem.

It's not uncommon at all, and I've spent the morning reading the last couple of years of news stories about hazing (and some of the more serious ones within the past 7). It's crazy. I'm so glad we do not allow frats to actually be on campus where I am. Or sororities. They can register as clubs and have tables on campus, but their residences have to be privately leased off campus (so they are declining as the years go by).

In 2018, U of Idaho issued a moratorium on any use of alcohol in a sorority or frat. I do not know if they ever lifted it - would be interesting to know. One fraternity was actually shut down over rules violations regarding alcohol and hazing. Now, if you believe that means that there's no drinking in those frat and soror houses, I got a bridge to sell you. But they have to be very much on the down low, have sober individuals who will come to the door to deal with complaints, and a good system for hiding the alcohol.

But the moratorium probably caused an uptick in the use of off-campus party houses, like 1122 King Road.

If anyone knows the history of this moratorium and whether it was ever lifted, please let us all know!

 

[debbiediablo]

It appears that the third floor was the target. It appears that the second floor was killed because they were witnesses. 1st floor were not whitenesses so we’re not killed. Perhaps someone who was jealous and could see in the window just decided to act out in a fit of rage. I think that he just got lucky that the local LE were not staffed to handle such a case with absolute precision and integrity from the very beginning. Simple as that. He may get caught but it will be from luck or him making another mistake. He will not be caught from LE investigation tactics. How often have you heard.. police crack a 25 year old murder mystery. And the “Crack” had nothing to do with investigative tactics. It’s simply someone who knew who just decided to confess or overhear something decades later. IMHOO

It appears that the third floor was the target. It appears that the second floor was killed because they were witnesses. 1st floor were not whitenesses so we’re not killed. Perhaps someone who was jealous and could see in the window just decided to act out in a fit of rage. I think that he just got lucky that the local LE were not staffed to handle such a case with absolute precision and integrity from the very beginning. Simple as that. He may get caught but it will be from luck or him making another mistake. He will not be caught from LE investigation tactics. How often have you heard.. police crack a 25 year old murder mystery. And the “Crack” had nothing to do with investigative tactics. It’s simply someone who knew who just decided to confess or overhear something decades later. IMHOO

Not always. Jerry Burns stabbed Michelle Martinko 29 times in the Westdale parking lot in Cedar Rapids, IA, in 1979, cutting himself in the process. Eventually familial DNA led to his arrest 30 years to the day after the crime. What this article doesn't sys say (and what was ruled inadmissible by the trial judge) was Burns' personal computer contained a multitude of searches for images of "dead blonde women" and "raped blonde women" and "stabbed blonde women".... No one has ever found a connection between him and Michelle. Jerry Burns sentenced to life for killing Michelle Martinko in 1979

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

I can't remember the names of the perpetrators, but this does remind me of the murder of a young woman by male friends of hers while she was house sitting. They videoed the entire event, and did it just for the thrill of killing, saying the wanted to be serial killers.

For those unfamiliar with it, the high school victim was Cassie Jo Stoddart murdered by two high school “friends.” It was a horrific murder:
Murder of Cassie Jo Stoddart - Wikipedia

 

[layer]

Anyone familiar the Summer Wells case? It's a heartbreaking case of a 5 yr old Tennesee girl that seemingly disappeared into thin air. It's been over a year and a half; the case remains unsolved. There is even some thinking that there was no foul play, she might have just wandered off into the wilderness surrounding her home.

Anyhow, you might be wondering what relevance that case has to this one.

The search for a vehicle.

This is from the TBI, an Amber Alert issued on June 16,2021:

"We received information that a Toyota pickup truck was seen in the area of Beech Creek Road and Ben Hill Road in the late afternoon to early evening on either Monday, June 14th, or Tuesday, June 15th. The pickup is possibly a 1998-2000 maroon or red Toyota Tacoma, with a full bed ladder rack along with white buckets in the truck bed.

We have been unable to identify the driver of this truck. Due to this, we are asking this driver to contact us at 1-800-TBI-FIND. We would like to speak with you to confirm this information and ask what you may have heard or seen at the time. If you are the driver of this truck, please contact us.

We want to stress that this individual is not a suspect, but is a potential witness who may have heard or seen something that may help us in our search for Summer."

I am struck by how much of that verbiage mirrors our search for a white 2011-2013 Elantra. Amber Alerts are no joke as far as being broadcast and spread.

The point is... that red Toyota truck has never been located, to this day.

So we could be in for a long ride looking for the Elantra.

ETA: JMHO

 

[Katrinepa]

I’m curious as to how you came up with this - i.e. petty criminal record, heavy drinker, recreational drug use - as well as disordered thinking due to drug use. IMO, and I’ve been a psychiatric RN for many years, this is not the work of anyone who has disordered thinking. Personality disorder, yes — Antisocial - no conscience. If this person were high on drugs / alcohol, or had disordered thinking, FBI would have likely already identified him b/c there is no way evidence of his identity would not have been left behind.

Exactly. Impairment from Drugs/Alcohol whatever would have made him/her sloppy, careless, unable to Focus on the intent. He may have killed animals before, as many who kill people often have done at some previous point, and perhaps a hunter/fisherman, IF local, as many in that area are, but as it is a college town, plenty of traffic in and out, especially out of town/country students, and perhaps workers. Many variables, but this reeks of a well planned crime impov. LE involves many outside resources, and gathering, testing, interviews all take time. I trust they have included Tope investigators, etc., and being careful. Even if they have a suspect, they must put together a Prosecutable Case for the DA. Patience is needed by the public at large.

 

[blackbeary]

Doesn't K appear to taking a video or photos behind her at one point while waiting at the Grub Truck?

Yes and nodded her head that way several times to get M to look back that way.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Based on JD aunt's interview, estimate Kaylee and JD breakup:

October 23rd or so

Kaylee's mom mentioned she had been at family home about 10 days for a visit prior to returning to Moscow. Estimated return to family home:

November 1st, 2nd or so

Could she have been finishing up something at another U of I location? Unknown, but interesting.

University of Idaho Coeur d'Alene - University of Idaho

U of I CDA offers selected undergraduate, graduate and certificate programs with class schedules that are designed for working professionals.

www.uidaho.edu

All JMO

 

[10ofRods]

Based on JD aunt's interview, estimate Kaylee and JD breakup:

October 23rd or so

Kaylee's mom mentioned she had been at family home about 10 days for a visit prior to returning to Moscow. Estimated return to family home:

November 1st, 2nd or so

Could she have been finishing up something at another U of I location? Unknown, but interesting.

University of Idaho Coeur d'Alene - University of Idaho

U of I CDA offers selected undergraduate, graduate and certificate programs with class schedules that are designed for working professionals.

www.uidaho.edu

All JMO

I don't see how she could change classes to another campus in the middle of the semester (and I checked U of I for short term classes last semester - and next - and don't see any). Registration periods for classes (and payment for classes) are set by Ed Code in each state, so it's not like students can just drop and add throughout the semester, thankfully.

BUT, there were plenty of online only classes at U of I, Moscow last semester. Kaylee's major, according to the University President, was their popular GE Studies Bachelor's degree (which essentially allows students to construct their own major around one of three "themes"). But, she would have had to register for an online only class at the beginning of the semester - which she may have done. She could have convinced a professor teaching a hybrid course to allow her to complete from home (but most universities require the prof to ask proof of a valid reason to excuse a student from attendance and give them alternative testing arrangements).

I do believe, though, that after COVID, we've seen a huge increase in students taking online classes - or asking to switch to online (because they are sick, because their household members have COVID - and now, flu and RSV as well). I don't personally require a doctor's note. I also am glad if a student decides to stay home if they're constantly coughing or sneezing.

It's just strange that she'd want to pay for a semester long lease if she had *planned* to go home in early November.

 

[layer]

Unless/until LE, UI, or Nationals provide specific info, it seems to me it’s speciation to conclude “hazing” had anything to do with the probationary status of the two sororities & should be identified as such rather than presented as fact.

This may just be displaying my ignorance, wouldn't be the first time. But I have read a lot of news stories about fraternity hazing. I didn't even know that sororities do it.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Hazing is included in the announcement:

Idaho murders: Victims' sororities on probation for 'health and safety' violations

The two sororities to which three of the slain University of Idaho students belonged are on disciplinary probation, according to community accountability records.

www.q13fox.com

Of 10 sororities recognized by the University of Idaho, Alpha Phi and Pi Beta Phi are the only two listed as on probation for health and safety reasons, which refers to "violations or concerns regarding risk management, alcohol/drugs, or hazing."

“health and safety reasons, which refers to "violations or concerns regarding risk management, alcohol/drugs, or hazing."

 

[bonniejeanne17]

IMOO, all In My Opinion Only
Greek-life is a factor. If not related to the crime, then related to its investigation, somehow. All four victims were members of greek-life at one time.

Please read this article; explains the dynamics of the fraternity system and challenges for universities and fraternity members themselves when there are potential lawsuits. It is a lengthy article and worth it. It also discusses student deaths at this same university, a few pages in.
This was written eight years ago, The Atlantic 2014, and the situation has likely evolved since then: Why Don’t Colleges Get Rid of Their Bad Fraternities? - The Atlantic

Greek-life is a subculture, with estimated 10%+ population across US/Canada. The subcultures generally have similar social structure, hierarchy, reputations, and abundant secrecy.

Fraternities and sororities - Wikipedia

“Individual fraternities and sororities vary in organization and purpose, but most share five common elements: 1. Secrecy"
“ … estimated that more than 10 percent of all college students are members of a Greek-letter society.” “ …there are more than 5,500 chapters on 800 campuses throughout the United States and Canada.”

Social Fraternities and Sororities - History, Characteristics of Fraternities and Sororities, Reforms and Renewal - College, Fraternity, Greek, and Campuses - StateUniversity.com
US News says “US Department of Education lists nearly 4,000 …” How Many Universities Are in the U.S. and Why That Number Is Changing (usnews.com)

This is not a negative opinion or criticism of any organization or greek system. BBM Just sharing information about the intricacy of the case with the greek-system layer.

All In My Opinion. MOO. JMO

Thanks for the fascinating article by Caitlin Flanagan in the Atlantic.

It really puts things in perspective regarding U. of Idaho and its fraternities, esp. Sigma Chi.