ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[z0mer]

“health and safety reasons, which refers to "violations or concerns regarding risk management, alcohol/drugs, or hazing."

It isn't allowed, but is it really something that stands out? Sounds like the traditional student life.

 

[Artemus]

Does anyone know whether Kaylee traded her old car in for the LandRover? Or did she sell it herself through advertising such as Craigslist??

 

[CityKid]

This may just be displaying my ignorance, wouldn't be the first time. But I have read a lot of news stories about fraternity hazing. I didn't even know that sororities do it.

Here's a horrifying list of stories (sources at end of stories):

15 Sorority Girls Confess Their Insane Hazing Stories

Here are 15 of the most disturbing sorority hazing stories — they may just make you think twice about ever joining a sorority.

www.theclever.com

 

[pentimento]

I don't see how she could change classes to another campus in the middle of the semester (and I checked U of I for short term classes last semester - and next - and don't see any). Registration periods for classes (and payment for classes) are set by Ed Code in each state, so it's not like students can just drop and add throughout the semester, thankfully.

BUT, there were plenty of online only classes at U of I, Moscow last semester. Kaylee's major, according to the University President, was their popular GE Studies Bachelor's degree (which essentially allows students to construct their own major around one of three "themes"). But, she would have had to register for an online only class at the beginning of the semester - which she may have done. She could have convinced a professor teaching a hybrid course to allow her to complete from home (but most universities require the prof to ask proof of a valid reason to excuse a student from attendance and give them alternative testing arrangements).

I do believe, though, that after COVID, we've seen a huge increase in students taking online classes - or asking to switch to online (because they are sick, because their household members have COVID - and now, flu and RSV as well). I don't personally require a doctor's note. I also am glad if a student decides to stay home if they're constantly coughing or sneezing.

It's just strange that she'd want to pay for a semester long lease if she had *planned* to go home in early November.

Just jumping in here because I haven't really read the previous discussion, but when I was doing my undergrad, there was a required "Senior Project" which consisted of original research related to your major. I had finished all of my classwork but hung around another semester to take it easy, work with my advisor, and finish my project while looking for work, etc., making plans to leave town and such, and once I handed it in and got it signed off, I was basically done and free to go. I did a quick search and I don't know if U of I has anything like this but maybe she could've optionally taken a course like this which could consist of a similar 'Senior Project.' JMO.

Senior Experience | General Education | University of Idaho

Part of the Integrated Studies requirement, the Senior Experience is a culminating, capstone educational-experience for seniors (typically at the 400 level).

www.uidaho.edu

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Anyone familiar the Summer Wells case? It's a heartbreaking case of a 5 yr old Tennesee girl that seemingly disappeared into thin air. It's been over a year and a half; the case remains unsolved. There is even some thinking that there was no foul play, she might have just wandered off into the wilderness surrounding her home.

Anyhow, you might be wondering what relevance that case has to this one.

The search for a vehicle.

This is from the TBI, an Amber Alert issued on June 16,2021:

"We received information that a Toyota pickup truck was seen in the area of Beech Creek Road and Ben Hill Road in the late afternoon to early evening on either Monday, June 14th, or Tuesday, June 15th. The pickup is possibly a 1998-2000 maroon or red Toyota Tacoma, with a full bed ladder rack along with white buckets in the truck bed.

We have been unable to identify the driver of this truck. Due to this, we are asking this driver to contact us at 1-800-TBI-FIND. We would like to speak with you to confirm this information and ask what you may have heard or seen at the time. If you are the driver of this truck, please contact us.

We want to stress that this individual is not a suspect, but is a potential witness who may have heard or seen something that may help us in our search for Summer."

I am struck by how much of that verbiage mirrors our search for a white 2011-2013 Elantra. Amber Alerts are no joke as far as being broadcast and spread.

The point is... that red Toyota truck has never been located, to this day.

So we could be in for a long ride looking for the Elantra.

ETA: JMHO

Thanks for that & I agree about the verbiage.

 

[drmrgrl]

I get the feeling he might like that. Who is that like, Danny Rolling? It's the big reason I think he might be the Juetten killer. That was 3 people in the house, including one man, and also a dog. The dog wasn't injured in that case either.

It's right down the highway from this college town.

I feel like he might like the thrill of a possible fight and having to flee. Maybe a military or a martial arts enthusiast? Kind of a hand-to-hand combat kind of fantasy?

I actually think he might be fairly young (possibly).

All MOO.

IMO, agree on the martial arts stuff-throwing stars, nunchucks, weapons, swords

 

[NuttMegg]

I went to a 30k student population major state university / party school (consistently on the playboy top 10 list) and we always had 2 to 3 fraternities suspended or on probation for various reasons (loud parties, underage drinking, hazing, disorderly house etc). It’s not as uncommon as it might seem.

Health and safety could be somewhat routine kitchen demerits, old expired food, whatever. Just like restaurants get.

 

[Which_pancake]

Are we discussing hazing because there is an idea the murders were the result of a hazing incident? I find that unlikely. As a lifelong university town resident, the worst hazing I have heard of was accidental alcohol poisoning deaths, never anything as bad as quadruple murder. That even sounds a little much for gang initiation, IMO.

 

[NuttMegg]

This may just be displaying my ignorance, wouldn't be the first time. But I have read a lot of news stories about fraternity hazing. I didn't even know that sororities do it.

i never heard of it at the U of Florida. The worst I ever saw was making a new pledge stand on her chair, light a match, and recite the alphabet backwards before the match burned out. (Honest, but a long time ago). It was the frats that got into the hazing.

 

[femto]

A ghost is someone not known by LE and doesn't leave much if any evidence at the scene. He was no longer a ghost when his cigarette butts were identified.

Ah, I'm having a little difficulty on this whole "ghost" term. By your logic isn't everyone basically a 'ghost' if he isn't captured? Who knows what evidence LE has and how that might be relevant to the killer. The killer might even live in that area and be considered a "ghost" per the definition if I'm understanding correctly.

Again, I think you are either conflating my post with other members or are drawing inferences from my posts that simply aren't there.

'This cat is a depraved, sadistic ghost, IMO, and BAU being on-scene within hours should tell all of us that. He ain't no friend. He ain't no aggrieved ex. He ain't no frat boy'

I read this as suggesting the killer is some crazed maniac who nobody knows and I don't believe that to be true. There's a very high chance the killer is in the area and hiding in plain sight. In fact, I've found more often than not these types of killers have already been interviewed, are caught for unrelated crimes but the police are unable to connect the dots or simply nobody pays attention to them because the police are looking in the wrong direction (say friends and "enemies" instead of the friendly neighbor)

Statistically, it is a developmental anomaly for someone this young to have reached this level of depravity. It isn't impossible, as your example of Daniel Marsh denotes, but it isn't probable or likely.

Aren't most killers in their 20 to 30 range? Marsh is on the younger side of the spectrum, but if we assume the killer is a college kid in his 20's, he really wouldn't be that out of place. The male body achieves peak physical performance in its 20's to early 30's.

I posited that he stalked them anonymously online prior. I think that with their online presence being vast and public that that is the most likely scenario here.

I mean they had online presence but I wouldn't exactly call it vast. They weren't popular in the social media sphere. And their presence on social media sites like tik-tok and instagram isn't really all that different from the tens of millions of other girls their age who have it. I assume their lives being under a microscope now gives that perspective.

Why not? Apps like Tiktok have real time location markers.

I don't use tik-tok, but I would imagine that would require the user to actually enable such a setting. On top of that it would maybe require the user to actually post their location manually. I seriously doubt that tik-tok just pastes your information like that openly. And I've never seen such information on any videos or accounts on tik-tok for that matter. Where exactly would a random nobody find such a thing?

Daniel Marsh isn't my example, he is yours.

Which you used as your own example.

It is not a simple mistake to not know the downstairs area existed. If stalking and entering from the back of the home, one wouldn't automatically know that. He also wouldn't know that via social media stalking. Additionally, what I've gathered thus far is that the top of the stairway had a door and it was locked.

My opinion.

But we'd have to assume that the killer literally stumbled on the house by chance at 3:00-4:00 AM and somehow landed on the victims sleeping. That's quite a bit of stretch. And it is impossible for the killer not to know about the first floor because as I said, the staircase to the first floor is right in his path. He literally couldn't have missed it unless he was virtually blind. It's interesting to me that on one side you argue about a stalker that supposedly kept in touch with every part of the victims schedule, but on the other hand he's apparently a complete idiot who doesn't know the basic things about the area he is attacking. You can't have it both ways.

 

[drmrgrl]

The timeline
Time of death 3-4 am
Call to J 2:52
White sedan 2:45-3:15 on Taylor (? if THE car)
Alcohol offense spotted 2:50
Alcohol offense 3:01 - 3:32

So, they were murdered during or after the alcohol offense. I think about the additional risk to the individual with police present in the area.MOO

edit: added link to timeline and MOO

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1GxCMwFKMAQlO0ndDhOqwW8hFbUgx2uiv2AEYLk-Ck1M/htmlview#

IMO, I think the roommates were killed after LE left the area advI think it’s possible the perp SPECIFICALLY waited until they left the area.

 

[drmrgrl]

I’m curious as to how you came up with this - i.e. petty criminal record, heavy drinker, recreational drug use - as well as disordered thinking due to drug use. IMO, and I’ve been a psychiatric RN for many years, this is not the work of anyone who has disordered thinking. Personality disorder, yes — Antisocial - no conscience. If this person were high on drugs / alcohol, or had disordered thinking, FBI would have likely already identified him b/c there is no way evidence of his identity would not have been left behind.

These are just my thoughts IMO.

 

[layer]

IMO, agree on the martial arts stuff-throwing stars, nunchucks, weapons, swords

Ninja?

 

[Palinsmom]

Does anyone know whether Kaylee traded her old car in for the LandRover? Or did she sell it herself through advertising

Facebook Marketplace ?

 

[Fascinated1]

I know LE are really interested in this white car, and reading its movements on the night of the murders it does make you wonder what it was doing out at that time, but it was 3 mile away from the murder scene and so far it hasn’t been spotted on anyone else’s CCTV, certainly not the house in Kings Road which picked up the Uber driver’s car.

So, while LE certainly seem keen to track it down, why exactly do they suspect it’s connected to the murders? Supposing the driver was out visiting an illicit lover, or collecting drugs? That is a possibility, and also a reason why hey wouldn’t come forward.

I mentioned this earlier today in a post that was deleted. I agree. The camera where the car was seen is not that close to the house. Though the time is right (too early IMO) im starting to think the only reason to find the car is so they can account for it to rule it out….

 

[Fascinated1]

Ninja?

There is a fencing club at U of I. I was not able to find anything like a roster though.

 

[10ofRods]

Just jumping in here because I haven't really read the previous discussion, but when I was doing my undergrad, there was a required "Senior Project" which consisted of original research related to your major. I had finished all of my classwork but hung around another semester to take it easy, work with my advisor, and finish my project while looking for work, etc., making plans to leave town and such, and once I handed it in and got it signed off, I was basically done and free to go. I did a quick search and I don't know if U of I has anything like this but maybe she could've optionally taken a course like this which could consist of a similar 'Senior Project.' JMO.

Senior Experience | General Education | University of Idaho

Part of the Integrated Studies requirement, the Senior Experience is a culminating, capstone educational-experience for seniors (typically at the 400 level).

www.uidaho.edu

One of the required courses for KG's major was indeed such a course - so if that's all she had to take, she was good to do it almost anywhere (probably had to meet up with the supervising prof 1-2 times). There was also a senior year capstone course (one for each semester - she could well have taken the spring offering last spring, but I am wondering how she planned to complete that one requirement - it was not offered as a DL course, but she could have special arrangements).

So that then begs the question: if you can do your work anywhere, and you're taking out student loans (as claimed by her parents) to afford your on campus lifestyle, why pay rent? And it sure sounds like she did not have a full time job in Moscow that would have offset her expenses.

She could have used her "internship" money (her parents are a bit confused about what the term "intern" usually means in a college - it means "unpaid work experience," but of course companies can do whatever they want about actually paying someone; I am not sure her parents are the best source on this).

If she got enough internship money to pay for the Range Rover, her rent and utilities, gasoline, medical and vet bills, food and clothing in one summer's work, then it makes sense. But that's one unusual internship, from my experience.

Just some interesting ways of looking at KG, who by all accounts was a good student and ambitious.

Are we discussing hazing because there is an idea the murders were the result of a hazing incident? I find that unlikely. As a lifelong university town resident, the worst hazing I have heard of was accidental alcohol poisoning deaths, never anything as bad as quadruple murder. That even sounds a little much for gang initiation, IMO.

No. I have suggested that one motive for such killings could be that someone, somewhere, had a secret.

Then I also suggested that if people are going to theorize that there was more than one person involved in this crime, I will bet all my lunch money that this will rope in fraternities and sororities - it's not a cartel, it's not a motorcycle gang, it's not the local service workers' union members, it's not a group of neighbors, etc.

I have at least another 50 articles on hazing to read when I get time, but after spending half a day on it (and this isn't my first pass through this information), I do think it sounds like a form of gang initiation (and its intentions are the same - to create a secret code and a bound-together-by-misadventure crew of...pranksters? Sadly, alcohol itself can be fatal to inexperienced young people).

All it would take, though, is one person with a secret and a mission - and a psychopathic mind (which, IMO, goes without saying in this crime - this was the crime of a person who harbors enormous aggression, fantasizes aggression, likes thinking about weapons, is either prone to rage or hate - and is hidden in plain sight, most likely). That's why the police want the Elantra. They believe that someone knew or saw this person that night. They know who the person is. They have found "patterns" in the results of their talks with many, many witnesses - they are still stuck on the Elantra that was on campus/near campus that night. They are not telling the public that there's a rando psychopath at large.

Could one person in a frat be that person? Of course - and in that case, would all his brothers immediately turn him in? Maybe. But if, as Chief Fry said on Friday (I think it was Friday), "we don't know where the individual is." Something like that. Very scary for the town of Moscow - and especially, for LE. If, however, the frat people do not turn him in - but simply tell the truth about not knowing his whereabouts that night, that would make him highly suspicious to LE. POI's are not generally named these days, in any case.

What LE needs is for the witnesses in the Elantra to place this person at or near 1122 King Road or vicinity that night. They may have a good idea that this person left his dwelling and was out and about, but so far, haven't got him on a neighbor's camera. If it's the other scenario, in which the occupants of the Elantra are involved somehow - then yes, we do get an example of a group of people, most likely young people and university-related, being involved in a quadruple murder. In my mind, it's possible that the Elantra driver and occupant (if any) might know this person and might have seen him in the area of the house (and may even have told others this already - but are unwilling to tell LE).

There's a secret. Somewhere. IMO. The dynamics of this situation could be applied to other possible suspects, but it makes sense that it would be a student (probably not undergrad) who has known anger issues and has been mentioned to LE, and the Elantra people are crucial to confirming that they saw him that night, outside of his dwelling and in the neighborhood of 1122 King. Could be non-fraternity related, but my intuition (MOO) says that there are students who know more than we do.

IMO, agree on the martial arts stuff-throwing stars, nunchucks, weapons, swords

Me too. Something like that. Surprising to look through instagrams of some of the frats and see a few ski masks, too. I was thinking that a person with a big self protection knife would want opportunities to display it and practice with it, too. But I bet there are quite a few people who meet that description out of the 10-11,000 students in Moscow (and some locals could fit the description as well).

 

[CityKid]

Are we discussing hazing because there is an idea the murders were the result of a hazing incident? I find that unlikely. As a lifelong university town resident, the worst hazing I have heard of was accidental alcohol poisoning deaths, never anything as bad as quadruple murder. That even sounds a little much for gang initiation, IMO.

@10ofRods alluded to it in a discussion of possible secret activities that involved hazing in the past; there was no discussion of hazing in reference to this murder (and I don't believe this murder was a hazing).

 

[Montecore1]

At the very least, they should wait the months it takes for DNA analysis, IMO.

What is the time frame these days for a complete DNA analysis to come back in a case like this?

10ofRods Can you explain what that process is why it takes as long as it does please?

 

[What's up Doc]

Idaho murder victim's dad believes killer will be caught: 'This isn’t something that people get away with'

The father of Madison Mogen believes that whoever is responsible for his daughter's death will be caught because it is too difficult for someone to get away with such an act.

www.foxnews.com