ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[drmrgrl]

I think so, yes. He watch them over time. If the girls disgusted him so much, why would he insert himself into the story via an international newspaper, and via video which ended up on youtube.

Imo

IMO, he probably felt the need to defend himself under the circumstances.

 

[NuttMegg]

IMO. He was escorting them and looking out for their safety. Actually, it was very honorable. My guess is that another persons presence that very night made them uncomfortable.

I'm referring to the guy who nastily badmouthed the girls (eewwww) and went out of his way to insert himself into the case, speaking with the international DM, ending up on youtube drawing attention to his derogatory comments, when he didn't even know which girl was which. The guy who mentioned that they were talking to a lot of guys in the bar, as he apparently was watching them over time. As I said earlier, I think he was exhibiting sour grapes, that so many others were talking to them but, apparently, the girls weren't talking to HIM. Imo

 

[RainbowRoad]

MOO - I think that murdering 4 people with a knife would require some purposeful decision making in the order that the victims were killed. There is potential that upstairs and downstairs occurred separately without alerting others in the home who were asleep.

Just MOO, there has not been mention of specifically who had defensive wounds with any certainty, only that 1 or more victims did (that I am aware of).

In the upstairs incident, the killer may have approached while both were sleeping, and attacked K first..she appears stronger than M in the picture where M is on her shoulders and in the videos. This could explain why M and K's wounds are described as different (M might have received more defensive wounds upon waking and K was already incapacitated). X and E's incident can be described in the same way, with the killer incapacitating E first, judging him as stronger of the two, and would explain why X might have more defensive type wounds.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

For anyone who gets any type of pleasure from this stuff…the knife…was probably the point.

Schooling, you just succinctly summarized the whole 'why the knife?' answer IMO. Thank you.


also, not part of @schooling quote above, just JMO IMO re the Atlantic article and bad frats a few pages back.

The Dark Power of Fraternities

A yearlong investigation of Greek houses reveals their endemic, lurid, and sometimes tragic problems—and a sophisticated system for shifting the blame.

www.theatlantic.com

I'm not going to get into this part of the discussion imo and jmo it's way overblown, but I did see something in that article that I think was intentionally skewed. I subscribe to The Atlantic and IMO it's credible journalism, but when I read the section of this article re what was described as "the chillingly comprehensive crisis-management plan", I could basically hear the JAWS theme playing and Nancy Grace on full-blast ominous (as always lol). Talk about loaded language IMO, so I offer just a caveat here to anyone interested: It's very common for any national organization or even state one or even volunteer to have a crisis management plan/approach for how and whom to speak to, press mgmt, etc. I checked and the college where I'd recently taken post-grad classes has something similar. My current workplace has one. Every corporate entity I've worked for has one. I've also had to agree to similar steps for volunteer organizations. So just something to keep in mind IMO.

 

[drmrgrl]

Not many people are precise. The level of precision is creepy.

IMO. He has a job that requires precision.

 

[Spb1213]

One thing that is bothering me is E&X's timeline. In some MSM it says they were at the frat house until 1:45AM. In other articles it says LE is still seeking information on their whereabouts that night.

The other thing is this, they have it on a doorbell camera that K&M arrived home at !:56 by car. But there has been no mention of E&X being on that door camera. If E&X walked up the back path from the frat house, they would not be captured on the door camera as they would not be in the front. So my question how do they know that E&X arrived home at precisely 1:45 am? Also how would they know if other people returned back home with them? In other words did they return home with friends to continue the party and those individuals gave them the information that E&X along with themselves arrived home at 1:45 am and this is how LE knows that precise time?

If the party continued after E&X returned home did K&M walk in and join the party in the hour before going upstairs to bed? We know an hour passed because the last call to J was 2:52 am. Were there other individuals there during that hour? If so then it makes sense that after K&M went upstairs and after the last call was placed at 2:52 am, there could possibly be a fight that broke out between E and someone else in which the perpetrator left then returned with a knife. This is my SPECULATION only.

IMO this entire thing is over something that happened at the frat party or after E&X returned home. IMO K&M were killed because they walked in on it and could identify who was there at the time they returned home.

That is why the other two survived because they were in bed and did not see who was present in the house at that time.

This has to be JMO, NOT A FACT, because I do not have the link handy, but in one of the earlier MSM articles it stated that one of the girls on the lower floor heard loud male voices upstairs but just thought it was a party going on. I do not know if anyone else remembers reading that or not. BUT I DO NOT HAVE A LINK SO IT IS JUST MY OPINION.

Another thing from the video where the girls were pretending to be each other, one of the girls pretending to be X says "Can I have a party? It will be just a few friends." This leads me to believe that X was the one who most frequently invited friends over. This is my SPECULATION only.

JMO

I’m with you (see my comment directly above yours).

If some coward was lying in wait

One thing that is bothering me is E&X's timeline. In some MSM it says they were at the frat house until 1:45AM. In other articles it says LE is still seeking information on their whereabouts that night.

The other thing is this, they have it on a doorbell camera that K&M arrived home at !:56 by car. But there has been no mention of E&X being on that door camera. If E&X walked up the back path from the frat house, they would not be captured on the door camera as they would not be in the front. So my question how do they know that E&X arrived home at precisely 1:45 am? Also how would they know if other people returned back home with them? In other words did they return home with friends to continue the party and those individuals gave them the information that E&X along with themselves arrived home at 1:45 am and this is how LE knows that precise time?

If the party continued after E&X returned home did K&M walk in and join the party in the hour before going upstairs to bed? We know an hour passed because the last call to J was 2:52 am. Were there other individuals there during that hour? If so then it makes sense that after K&M went upstairs and after the last call was placed at 2:52 am, there could possibly be a fight that broke out between E and someone else in which the perpetrator left then returned with a knife. This is my SPECULATION only.

IMO this entire thing is over something that happened at the frat party or after E&X returned home. IMO K&M were killed because they walked in on it and could identify who was there at the time they returned home.

That is why the other two survived because they were in bed and did not see who was present in the house at that time.

This has to be JMO, NOT A FACT, because I do not have the link handy, but in one of the earlier MSM articles it stated that one of the girls on the lower floor heard loud male voices upstairs but just thought it was a party going on. I do not know if anyone else remembers reading that or not. BUT I DO NOT HAVE A LINK SO IT IS JUST MY OPINION.

Another thing from the video where the girls were pretending to be each other, one of the girls pretending to be X says "Can I have a party? It will be just a few friends." This leads me to believe that X was the one who most frequently invited friends over. This is my SPECULATION only.

JMO

I’m with you on this (see my comment directly above yours).

If some coward was lying in wait for all 6 occupants to be asleep, he was taking an enormous risk entering the house only a few minutes after K and M hung up the phone with their final call to the ex at 2:52. Lights out doesn’t mean everyone is asleep.

Rather, LE and the media have been an absolute vault when it comes to X and E’s night, only seeking context to their activities. So much focus has been on K and M, perhaps due to Mr. G’s interviews and the abundance of social media. But, in one of Mr. G’s interviews, he said (paraphrasing) that the killer didn’t have to go upstairs. Is it possible killer’s beef was only with the 2nd floor residents? That K and M may have known of something that transpired earlier in the evening b/w X and E and perpetrator after returning from the Grub Truck?

 

[drmrgrl]

He didn't know there were other bedrooms
He didn't know there were other roommates
He didn't know they were home
Their bedroom doors were locked

IMO He may not have known them period.

 

[Montecore1]

Are we discussing hazing because there is an idea the murders were the result of a hazing incident? I find that unlikely. As a lifelong university town resident, the worst hazing I have heard of was accidental alcohol poisoning deaths, never anything as bad as quadruple murder. That even sounds a little much for gang initiation, IMO.

I took the hazing comments as more of retaliation for being hazed than murder was the hazing..

 

[10ofRods]

What is the time frame these days for a complete DNA analysis to come back in a case like this?

10ofRods Can you explain what that process is why it takes as long as it does please?

Sure. First, let me point out that a house that size would have hundreds of samples to go through. There are several steps in the process. It's not possible, aside from blood or semen, to know where exactly DNA will be found - so lots of swabs. Here are the national stats:

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/rpt/2010-R-0086.htm

Now, if your question is why, in a nation like the US, it could take this long for most places to process lab materials, the answer to that is money. That, and a lack of qualified people to run those labs. Where I live, there are people older than me putting in "just a few more months" before they retire - while their labs wait to find new hires. There aren't many. So it's not just money - but if they made the jobs pay more, I suppose eventually they'd have more recruits. They pay around $100,000 a year here for an experienced tech - which is considered "not enough" by my students looking for a program of study. Naturally, it takes a degree in science - preferably genetics or genetic anthropology.

Take a look at Idaho. Homicide - rush situation - is 45-60 days. And that's for each stage of this analysis. First, there would be the separation of organic particles from inorganic - with carpet fibers, clothing fibers, etc, going off for further analysis in another pace, and the biologic evidence going on for separate DNA analysis. Typically, one would want a cluster of various blood cells and samples from the autopsy. But for touch DNA, they'd need to include other detectable bits of DNA from swabs - all the swabs have to be analyzed - but only some will have DNA.

So for the two stages to take place and the touch DNA to be isolated and sent to yet another specialist, it would be 90-120 days (from receipt of samples, so let's say 7 days after the murders). I doubt they'll release any final autopsy report until all of this is done.

Since the DNA of the victims is only being used for ruling out who the perp is, that's likely been done. But now - they'll process certain swabs/samples first (getting stranger DNA from a pool of blood is not guaranteed to work - part of it will be luck). A well prepared killer would leave very little touch DNA. The DNA from all around the house (door jambs, door knobs, faucets, etc) will likely turn up dozens of partial profiles.

The sorting of partial profiles into meaningful perp data may or may not work and can take months. They would have little bits of a strand that we can picture as string - a piece of string that would reach to the moon and back 150,000 times. Almost none of it is useful for the task at hand - just little areas that contain SNP's (markers unique to families, lineages and sometimes, individuals).

If they get lucky and do have, say, spit from the perp or the perp cut himself or lost a glove, they can move on to trying to find him through genealogical DNA analysis in as early as 6 months, maybe even less. If they think they know who he is, then they'll be trying to get trace DNA from him by the usual investigative means.

I am guessing that within just the bedroom zone of the two rooms, they're going to find DNA profiles of more than 2 people.

Did you know that even washing, with bleach, does not destroy all the DNA in underwear? And that women's underwear has been used to track their killers or to create a list of possible suspects? So the forensic vacuum contents could contain lots and lots of profiles - including people who lived in the house a year or more before. It's kind of a forensic nightmare.

People are used to saying that "rapid DNA results" occur - yes, they do. If you give an actual cheek swab and it goes directly into lab solution. Can be overnight, if the tech is available. But the murderer isn't going to give that kind of sample - and the victims' blood types and DNA are already known (and only useful to exclude stranger DNA, really).

 

[Nila Aella]

One (of many things that confuses me about this case) is the timeline, specifically the timing around the known calls to the ex-bf at 2:52. Clearly, K and M were wide awake at that point. Elantra in area between 2:45 and 3:15. Is the suggestion that the murders happened in the earlier part of the 3:00am hour? Seems so risky to assume K and M would be fully asleep so quickly after calling ex.

The timeline has made me think more about the reported time of death and if they were sleeping, and yes, the phone calls. I know I know, K was reported to normally place multiple calls until someone picked up, but what if this was not one of her normal dial until someone answers series of calls? In addition, the alcohol offense was occuring outside during this time as well (2:50-3:30). So if TOD is accurate, sleeping is accurate, phone calls are benign, I think it would have occured toward the latter part of the 3-4 window. After the police left. JMO

Family of Idaho college killing victim wants answers on alibis

The family of one of the four victims in the University of Idaho killings wants answers from police.

www.newsnationnow.com

Idaho murders: What we know and what's still a mystery

Diving into the unanswered questions in the mysterious University of Idaho quadruple homicide.

abcnews.go.com

Idaho murders: Police release bodycam video from night of killings

Idaho officials released body camera footage Thursday of a police stop recorded around the same time four college students were stabbed to death and near the crime scene.

www.yahoo.com

 

[layer]

I have seen many on here state that a gun would be very loud, even with a silencer, and that isn't necessarily true. Look at this video starting about the 2 minute mark, demonstrating the volume of various types of guns with silencers. A 22 would definitely be very quiet. Either of the first two guns would likely not be heard outside the house or even in it if someone had in ear buds or a noise machine, etc. Some criminals do things like shoot with a silencer into a pillow placed over the victim to reduce the sound even further. I know it's moot point in this case, since the perp used a knife, but it does inform our knowledge of his profile. He killed by stabbing, likely because he derived from enjoyment from that up close and personal action.

Suppressors are designated Class 3 firearms. To legally obtain a suppressor in Idaho you must be 21, then you have to purchase the suppressor, submit a Form 4 including fingerprints to the ATF, along with $200 for the tax stamp and wait a bare minimum of 90 days to pass a background check and get approved (this often takes 6 months or longer). Suppressors that are even minimally effective start at around $1000 and go up from there. And of course you have to buy a gun to put it on.

A genuine KA-BAR combat knife costs around $100, much less for a knockoff, has no age limit, requires no background check, no fingerprints, no waiting period, no ID, and is quiter than the most expensive suppressor on the market.

 

[drmrgrl]

This has been a question of much discussion in my household. Two of us are college professors. Most classes at U of Idaho were being held in the real world. I noticed that K's name was not on the list of graduates at the recent graduation, so she must have had coursework to complete. In fact, I find it hard to believe she didn't have at least 9-12 units, given that she was graduating a semester early and had done an internship (rather than stay in Moscow and do coursework) during the summer. Maybe there were more online classes during the summer.

K arrives in Moscow around mid-August (August 11?) and the party at 1122 King Road is Sept 1. She is on body cam in August for a noise complaint (at 1122 King Road). Her mother says she came home about 10 days before Nov 12, so let's say around Nov 2. It doesn't sound like she was planning to come back again until graduation. It's possible she found shorter courses (accelerated courses) to finish her units, but units are units, and that would be an unusual way to finish out a degree (accelerated courses are usually lower division courses, for what I hope are obvious reasons).

Why did she leave early? Getting a paid internship during the summer is quite an accomplishment, and may have signaled a career change for her (University president announced her major as General Studies when he gave his press release regarding the tragedy). How did she find the internship? She had over 50,000 followers at the time of her death (and almost 60,000 now). That's a lot of social contacts. We know nothing about her online interactions with this growing group of people - nor do we know what aspects of her content on instagram drew that many followers. Was she networking nationwide?

Her lease must have been up in December, so why did she leave early? AND break up with her longterm boyfriend at around the same time? The break-up is said to have occurred about 10 days before she went back home (so let's say Oct 24ish).

This is a lot of change for even a young person. It's possible she had only lower division requirements to complete (say, an English course) and got permission from a prof to work from home (students ask for that all the time - but generally, they have to have a good reason, such as illness).

Anyway, at what point did she register for fully online classes, if she did (I'm finding plenty of GE classes that were fully online). Why would a student pay for rent if they didn't have to? She apparently intended to occupy (and party at) 1122 King Road for her last semester. What changed her mind?

I'm not disrespecting her goals of having fun during her last semester at university, I'm just curious about what changed during the semester, given that she signed a lease, apparently had classes on campus (why else be there?) and then changed midstream. She apparently gave no clues to her parents, other than excitement about wanting the next phase of her life to begin (which might be precisely what motivated her to move away from Moscow). Was she really going to backpack Europe by herself?

IMO,maybe she had become aware of someone stalking her and was afraid for her personal safety. From what I have read about K, she was smart and INTUITIVE. Maybe she just had a bad feeling about what was going on in her current life situation or maybe she no longer felt safe in Moscow. I never ever doubt someone when they say they have a bad feeling. Also, maybe it was a feeling that she had about her future that she couldn’t quite articulate.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Not many people are precise. The level of precision is creepy.

IMO. He has a job that requires precision.

What type of job would require that type/level of precision?

 

[al66pine]

The killer always makes a mistake. It’s up to LE to find it.

@OldCop

The killer always makes a mistake. Or more. It’s up to LE to find it. Or them.

There, fixed it for you. [WINK, LOL] Good to see ya.

[[[ETA. Am confident LE will find it/them.]]]

 

[10ofRods]

The risk management part is significant

Yes, I included a link about the collapse in my first response to you — did you miss it?

To which I’ll add that as decades’ long local resident affiliated with the UI who follows this kind of local stuff quite closely, the most significant issue with the Greek system at UI has long been alcohol, Alcohol, and ALCOHOL.

Especially as alcohol relates to risk management, lawsuits, & settlements without admitting liability at UI.

I’ll recommend researching two specific tragedies as emblematic of the Greek system at the UI:
Rejena Coghlan (Greek system escaped, reportedly there was eventually a confidential settlement with UI in which no fault was admitted)
Joseph Weiderick (Joe was a non-Greek student who attended a frat party as is common here, one or more frat members were subsequently charged & entered into plea agreements)

There are several others, of course, and a decent quasi-recent overview is available (in additional to reporting by the Argonaut, the student newspaper, & other local reporting). Actual hazing pales in comparison to alcohol problems at the UI:
U. of Idaho dean of students resigns after failed attempt to punish fraternity

Hazing is a serious problem wherever/whenever it happens, but conflating hazing with actual long-standing alcohol issues within the Greek system at the UI isn’t helpful, it seems to me.

MOO.

I didn't make the rules (which, in this case, are fully compatible with federal accreditation standards - so U of I has decided to word it that way for a reason). I suspect that the intensity of hazing is directly correlated to alcohol. I also suspect that peer pressure or even physical force in administering alcohol to underage students is also a part of the problem. So I see why they lump those things together for both punitive and investigative purposes - they didn't write their rules to make ay of the rest of us more enlightened, they wrote them so that they could have committees, councils and policies to address clusters of issues, as they must do in risk management.

I didn't see the building collapse link in my first pass through - but I did see the dean resignation.

Can you suggest a way of disentangling the alcohol use from the other problems? Is the hazing situation newer than the alcohol problem? Since there clearly is some hazing going on, why would we want to separate it? What would our purpose be in that regard? If it's true that "everybody drinks alot" but "only some people are mean hazers," it's still useful to have the first group identified (and subject to the rules) and then separate out the second. I seriously doubt that the seniors who are in charge of the hazing (and sometimes it's even older students) are on the wagon.

 

[IspyWithMyBigEye]

I'm married to a man who loves guns, mainly antiques, and we seem to have at least one of almost everything. The sound of a suppressed (silenced) gun depends entirely on the gun and the silencer. Some barely sound different; others sound like a snap that would not likely be taken for a gunshot.

Gosh, some of those quieter shots don’t sound like gunshots at all, and they’re very quiet considerably that was filmed standing next to the gun.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Just my 2, wouldn't a random killer pick a house closer to a main road? Like you mentioned, this is pretty much taking a risk on this one. I believe that says something. MOO

I don't happen to be a homicidal maniac, but if I'm going to bother doing something I'd want to do it well, so imo jmo, if I were picking a house for a quadruple murder, I would look for location outside of the city camera system, in an area with a lot of traffic around and about, but not much security. IMO JMO I'd also scout the location at many times throughout the day to determine patterns. Unfortunately, IMO LE could become aware of my patterns, so I'd have to mix it up a bit (different cars, different modes of transportation, different burner phones, etc.) I'd also want to have multiple options for escape, so I'd spend time developing multiple plans for both inside and outside, pre-attack and post attack. IMO I'd much rather risk the random ring camera than business/road camera system. I personally think the house is a great choice, if one is careful, prepared, organized, and has a plan that account for multiple variables.

IMO and JMO I think that in our various interpretations of what we know and theories based on that, we put a lot of ourselves into our analysis. I choose organized and making a game out of the various angles because that's what I do. So I try to step outside of that to think like a different kind of killer. (In this case, it's hard because 6 weeks have gone by and still nada that we know of). Even doing that, I can say I wouldn't pick a house on a main road or even close to if it were only accessible that way. Too many eyes of all kinds.

 

[Kittycat40]

I think one killer in each victim room, each killing two people quickly, is definitely a probability. The third person would be the Elantra driver, circling around and waiting to pick up either the killers or their bloody garments. I'm hoping this is what happened; as soon as one is cornered by LE, there's a greater likelihood in another rolling over. I think they're local and home for the holidays, and I think this will break wide open then. MOO

That’s a possibility for sure. If there was more than 1 killer. I too wonder if the driver in the Hyundai wasn’t the killer per se. But rather the driver and look out person for the killer and or killers that helped bring them to and from the murder house the morning of the murders.

Not saying for sure it was multiple killers. As it could have been just one killer driving himself to and from murder house. But the possibility of more than one killer has not be ruled out by me.

Jmo

 

[10ofRods]

I’m with you (see my comment directly above yours).

If some coward was lying in wait

I’m with you on this (see my comment directly above yours).

If some coward was lying in wait for all 6 occupants to be asleep, he was taking an enormous risk entering the house only a few minutes after K and M hung up the phone with their final call to the ex at 2:52. Lights out doesn’t mean everyone is asleep.

Rather, LE and the media have been an absolute vault when it comes to X and E’s night, only seeking context to their activities. So much focus has been on K and M, perhaps due to Mr. G’s interviews and the abundance of social media. But, in one of Mr. G’s interviews, he said (paraphrasing) that the killer didn’t have to go upstairs. Is it possible killer’s beef was only with the 2nd floor residents? That K and M may have known of something that transpired earlier in the evening b/w X and E and perpetrator after returning from the Grub Truck?

Yes - and that could be the "secret" that the killer wished to prevent from circulating further, for sure. If the killer knew that X, E, K and M had all arrived home within minutes of each other and spent some time talking in the brightly lit kitchen, this suspicious, angry and possibly rage and panic-filled person might have gone over just to prevent whatever info it was...from being circulated further.

I think we'll find that the killer was in position outside the house by 1:30-1:50, that he moved around the neighborhood and was caught on a couple of cameras but was disguised, and that the people in the Elantra may have already shared information that they are unwilling to repeat to police. It all gets circular (LE needs to talk to those people, those people are terrified of the killer - whom they recognized in some way - they won't talk until he's apprehended, etc., etc).

I also think we'll find the killings happened more along the lines of 3:30-4:00 am.

 

[Jbootneil]

Why was hoodie guy there for protection? Who was stalking or mad at Kg