ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[debbiediablo]

Yes - and that could be the "secret" that the killer wished to prevent from circulating further, for sure. If the killer knew that X, E, K and M had all arrived home within minutes of each other and spent some time talking in the brightly lit kitchen, this suspicious, angry and possibly rage and panic-filled person might have gone over just to prevent whatever info it was...from being circulated further.

I think we'll find that the killer was in position outside the house by 1:30-1:50, that he moved around the neighborhood and was caught on a couple of cameras but was disguised, and that the people in the Elantra may have already shared information that they are unwilling to repeat to police. It all gets circular (LE needs to talk to those people, those people are terrified of the killer - whom they recognized in some way - they won't talk until he's apprehended, etc., etc).

I also think we'll find the killings happened more along the lines of 3:30-4:00 am.

I've never seen ToD to be nearer 3 AM than 4 AM, and I'm beginning to think the killer was inside the house when everyone came home.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

MOO>> This is an *EGO BASED* killer. The only alternative would be a professional *hit*, a theory which I do not subscribe to. So, this then begs the question....was it based on affront to their EGO (rage,, jealousy) or did this arise from an inherent urge to kill? The former would entail some form of previous contact, which I find possible but unlikely. This is a lone killer who may done in the past and will probably do so going forward. MOO.

thank you for answering. I'm listening to a panel now, and imo I'm really leaning this direction imo and concerned that this could move forward. imo.

 

[kbckcern22]

All I know is that the closer LE gets to the truth…the closer they hold all of the details to the vest. They definitely HAVE something. They need time to develop it sufficiently so it has teeth. They’ll get there. My hats off to them. They have the worst task with this one. If they are determined to “hunt him down” (as I believe them to be), they will find him and arrest him. All good things in time. Jmoo

I feel the same!!! They are onto someone and they are making sure every thing adds up! This one is a doozy and by far one that will haunt LE for a very long time. I am at the point that no matter how many weeks go by, as long as the awful person that committed this heinous crime is arrested and convicted, a heck of a lot of people will be standing by cheering and giving LE all the love and respect they so rightfully deserve.

 

[Past Mortem]

Sorry if this has been covered, but has LE commented on the petrol station CCTV image of that white car?

Also, at what point do you all think LE will provide further information (if they do at all) either regarding the car they’re searching for or some other piece of information that could jog someone’s memory? IMO the information they have on the white Hyundai has been provided by an eye witness rather than a camera otherwise I feel they would’ve released some type of image to the public by now given they haven’t gotten any further on tracking it down, however then the other part of me wonders if it was indeed CCTV that captured it given they area dead set on it being a specific year white Elantra Hyundai.

How long do ring cameras or home security keep recordings for? I find it hard to believe in this day and age with all the people with cameras on their house/in their cars that it hasn’t been captured elsewhere even on the days preceding the murder. And if it has been captured, why have LE not released something to further encourage people to come forward? The car had to drive to and from 1122 King at some point for it to have been there… how can a car just appear and disappear into thin air?!

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

One reason I think this case must be unusual is the take of the many experts from detectives to FBI to profilers who have chimed in and given their perspective. The combined experience of all of them together is impressive, and yet they do not agree.
While I understand that their experience is liked to a highly informed gut instinct, some based their thoughts on studies, statistics, and large numbers of cases.
These basic thoughts are still in debate regarding this quadruple murder that is 5 weeks old. I‘m sure some are known by LE, but based on what is known the experts can’t seem to solidly agree.
- male or female
- individual or pair
- known or unknown to victims
- peer student or older
- local or not
- prior experience with violent crimes or not
- hiding in the house or entered after everyone was asleep
- drove or walked to and from
- loner or member of social group

I wonder if crime trends change, and the categories of the past may have never fit very tightly and as enough research is available to apply for understanding- trends change.
So many comparisons have been made to famous killers, and yet society has changed in dramatic ways since these killers were active.
How has social media, expansions of video media outlets, and the web in general changed the information available to criminals? I would assume these info sources have dramatically changed crime.
We know that web based crime is rampant And changes so rapidly that hackers seem to evolve as LE is trying to stay one step ahead to react and attempt to prevent.
Surely it is the same with other types of crime including stalking, predation, and voyeurism.
Platforms for criminals to teach each other have expanded- a budding criminal does not have to be incarcerated to learn- forums are full of how to discussions.

For example in this case- What even does the choice of weapon and wounds mean?
We know the weapon had a sharp blade- it has been described as Rambo or KaBar or fixed blade hunting knife.
Some experts have strongly suggested that the knife and method support that the perp must have access to military gear and military experience. With online shopping and a vast library of how tos- how can this be a strong expectation?
A person could buy online, watch how to videos, practice on a raw chicken.
What is tough for me to walk through is the mental preparation, do video games allow for a mental preparation?
Connect all these pieces together with a motive, unhinged mental illness, and In the past 25+ years we should be seeing new kinds of trained killers- shouldn’t we?

Apologies for the length, I’ve tried to edit gettign sleeping
JMO

thank you for your thoughtful response! way more to think about imo

 

[Stratocaster]

Understand that this is within a more rural small town environment rather than a city. There is an unusual amount of factors to consider. In mathematical terms what is the value of 4 factorial ? It is 24 variations of possible interactions between the victims. However, if we include the suspect we have 5 factors which increases. to 120 combinations and keep adding a variable factor to 6 factorial. That number becomes 720 combinations of possible relationships. The relationship between the victims suspect, the University, the community creates a very complex set of conditions that solve the problem.

I think you're trying to say this is a complex case, agreed....

Still going with my notion inside job with extended social circle.

Also something else not adding up for me.....if there's by all accounts, a defensive struggle with either E or X on the middle floor, there's no way the two surviving first floor roommates don't hear ANYTHING in the supposedly 'creaky, hear everything' house, not buying it.

Someone knows something.

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

It's been six weeks in now....

Leaning wayyyyy more inside job with extended social circle, than random serial killer.....after digesting several reads, some fact, some fiction.



MOO

Understand that this is within a more rural small town environment rather than a city. There is an unusual amount of factors to consider. In mathematical terms what is the value of 4 factorial ? It is 24 variations of possible interactions between the victims. However, if we include the suspect we have 5 factors which increases. to 120 combinations and keep adding a variable factor to 6 factorial. That number becomes 720 combinations of possible relationships. The relationship between the victims suspect, the University, the community creates a very complex set of conditions that solve the problem.

 

[al66pine]

HOMICIDE. MOSCOW PD. HOMICIDE UNIT.
@DizzyB post commented about Moscow PD.

Why do you believe there is no homicide unit ? There are homicides that occur in Moscow, ID. They are near other cities. Not sure how you are assessing Moscow police capabilities.

@samanthadaniels1995 Yes, homicides occur in Moscow.
A report covering 2007 thru 2019 shows 7 homicides in 11 yrs.*
"Full-time law enforcement employees in 2019, including police officers: 45 (37 officers)."*

Unless MPD has 'imported' homicide personnel from other LE agencies, seems MPD's homegrown investigators do not have deep, wide homicide experience.

@DizzyB
Can a deficit in that regard be remedied by assistance from other LE agencies? Like what has happened/is happening here?
Moscow PD Chief promptly requested assistance from both ID. St.Pol. and FBI which promptly started providing. Still are.

Yes, every homicide needs to be thoroughly, properly investigated no matter what the population or size of LE agency, and even if homicide frequency is one per decade.
IRL, Moscow PD is not staffed w homicide detectives, investigators, crime scene techs, lab personnel, etc. like the Top Ten Murder Cities in US.
Nor are thousands of other hamlets, villages, town, cities.
But w state LE & FBI assistance, as needed, requested & provided, homicides can be properly investigated, solved, & prosecuted.

BTW, per below, seems being/living in Moscow is
SAFER in EVEN-NUMBERED years.

----------------------------------------------------------------
* A report covering 2007 thru 2019:
2007 = 1.
2008 = 0.
2009 = 1.
2010 = 0.
2011 = 1.
2012 = 0.
2013 = 1.
2014 = 0.
2015 = 3.
2016 = 0
2017 = 0.
2018 = 0.
2019 = 0.
So, per this source: 7 homicides in 11 yrs.
^ from Crime table and info at
Moscow, Idaho (ID 83843, 83844) profile: population, maps, real estate, averages, homes, statistics, relocation, travel, jobs, hospitals, schools, crime, moving, houses, news, sex offenders
I've read on that site that crime data come from FBI UniCrimeRpt, but am not seeing it now.

 

[The Observer]

We can only hope the Christmas break actually works in LE's favour. I hope this gives students, uni employees and the likes time away from uni/sorority/frat influences and time alone with family.

Not only to heal but my hope is it gives them time to open up and confide in a loved one things they may know, or hunches they may have, and that loved one convinces them to call the tip line. Someone knows something and I hope the comfort/safety of being at home perhaps gives them the nudge they may need to speak up.

 

[The Observer]

Sorry if this has been covered, but has LE commented on the petrol station CCTV image of that white car?

Also, at what point do you all think LE will provide further information (if they do at all) either regarding the car they’re searching for or some other piece of information that could jog someone’s memory? IMO the information they have on the white Hyundai has been provided by an eye witness rather than a camera otherwise I feel they would’ve released some type of image to the public by now given they haven’t gotten any further on tracking it down, however then the other part of me wonders if it was indeed CCTV that captured it given they area dead set on it being a specific year white Elantra Hyundai.

How long do ring cameras or home security keep recordings for? I find it hard to believe in this day and age with all the people with cameras on their house/in their cars that it hasn’t been captured elsewhere even on the days preceding the murder. And if it has been captured, why have LE not released something to further encourage people to come forward? The car had to drive to and from 1122 King at some point for it to have been there… how can a car just appear and disappear into thin air?!

Interestingly so no they haven't.

 

[AngTxGal]

Understand that this is within a more rural small town environment rather than a city. There is an unusual amount of factors to consider. In mathematical terms what is the value of 4 factorial ? It is 24 variations of possible interactions between the victims. However, if we include the suspect we have 5 factors which increases. to 120 combinations and keep adding a variable factor to 6 factorial. That number becomes 720 combinations of possible relationships. The relationship between the victims suspect, the University, the community creates a very complex set of conditions that solve the problem.

Moscow isn’t a ‘rural small town’ in the way that I would use those words. Maybe because I live 10 min outside of a city similar to Moscow?
To me ‘rural small town’ describes cities in the Dylan Rounds case, but I would add isolated to those. Moscow isn‘t isolated.
Interstate hwy 95
Major chains of restaurants/ businesses
30 min from Pullman, 5.5 hours from Boise
Major employers- I’m guessing
- university
- public school district
-city government/ services
- retail, shops, dining
- health care
- trade

How does this help us understand the killer and this crime? I’m not sure

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

We can only hope the Christmas break actually works in LE's favour. I hope this gives students, uni employees and the likes time away from uni/sorority/frat influences and time alone with family.

Not only to heal but my hope is it gives them time to open up and confide in a loved one things they may know, or hunches they may have, and that loved one convinces them to call the tip line. Someone knows something and I hope the comfort/safety of being at home perhaps gives them the nudge they may need to speak up.

This is a very good point, IMO
For this reason I am hopeful families will get answers in January!

What that hope implies is a link to students or someone that works at the Univ of I.
It is possible

JMO

 

[Muddy K]

We can only hope the Christmas break actually works in LE's favour. I hope this gives students, uni employees and the likes time away from uni/sorority/frat influences and time alone with family.

Not only to heal but my hope is it gives them time to open up and confide in a loved one things they may know, or hunches they may have, and that loved one convinces them to call the tip line. Someone knows something and I hope the comfort/safety of being at home perhaps gives them the nudge they may need to speak up.

I’m thinking about this tragedy even when I’m not focused on thinking about it. I know nothing beyond the few LE-provided facts that we all know, but I keep trying to figure it out. I can’t seem to help it. The cruelty is something I can’t look away from.

“If you see something, say something.”

I’ve heard this classic reminder in varying contexts so many times; I think many of us have. Often it comes from LE, though it was initially created by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) after 9/11 to show the importance of reporting suspicious activity.

I hear in the video press conferences and on-the-spot interviews with MPD personnel – despite the thousands of “tips” they have received – the continuing plea for information, anything at all. I can translate that to “if you saw something, say something.” But do you always know that’s what happened, that you saw something?

In October 1989 I was working with a theater company. Long evening rehearsals downtown, then driving home late, midnight, 1:00 a.m. After one of those rehearsals, I was waiting on a stoplight at a well-lit intersection. I noticed a man leaning casually against the wall of a brick building, hands in pockets, one leg bent at the knee. At first glance, he was attractive - blond hair, jeans, well-worn denim jacket. I looked again. On second glance, there was something wrong about him. Uneasiness suddenly overtook me. Instinctively I realized that he was waiting to be seen, waiting to be approached. Not by me, but by a person of his own choosing. I wanted the light to turn green. When it did, I looked back over my left shoulder one last time to check my silly reaction. But it held, he was all bad ju-ju, skin crawling. I floored it, drove home fast and never forgot him. It turned out to have been Jeffrey Dahmer. I recognized him instantly on July 25, 1991, during his first televised court appearance.

“If you see something, say something” would have meant what, in this instance? What had I seen? I could have called LE and said “Officer, I saw a guy loitering at the corner of Jackson and Chicago and something is not right about him.” Non-starter, IMO. LE likely would have been polite, but what actionable information would they have received from me? In hindsight, that day in July 1991, watching Jeffrey Dahmer in court, even I didn’t know what I possibly could have said to LE about some strange guy leaning against a wall. And he killed so many more more men in the interval.

The obvious difference is that at the time I saw Jeffrey Dahmer in October 1989, Milwaukee didn’t know he was five murders into his run, operating in plain sight around the city. Moscow, Idaho, does know that someone killed four people five weeks ago. Somewhere, someone, some few, some many, saw something. They may not trust that they did. They may have dismissed it as their own self-dramatizing, which is basically what I did. I wish Moscow LE could offer some guidance about what kinds of “something” they want to hear about, and some encouragement too, because it is not always easy to recognize that you’ve seen something and it is not always easy to trust in yourself that you really did see it, let alone pick up the phone and tell someone about it.

JMO

 

[Helechawagirl]

Understand that this is within a more rural small town environment rather than a city. There is an unusual amount of factors to consider. In mathematical terms what is the value of 4 factorial ? It is 24 variations of possible interactions between the victims. However, if we include the suspect we have 5 factors which increases. to 120 combinations and keep adding a variable factor to 6 factorial. That number becomes 720 combinations of possible relationships. The relationship between the victims suspect, the University, the community creates a very complex set of conditions that solve the problem.

Math again. Nooooo.

That’s why this case is difficult. There are too many possibilities and too many unknowns.

The common factor that ties these victims together is lifestyle.

Whether someone resentful or judgmental of the lifestyle put an end to it or did it to send a message

Or

someone within the lifestyle had a grievance with these individuals or felt threatened by them and acted to eliminate the threat…

remains to be seen.

I still think it’s a good possibility all 4 were targeted. More wounds on an individual could mean more resistance or the killer could simply have gotten tired. Or perhaps that assumption is incorrect. Or perhaps some were attacked through blankets and some were not.

Moscow LE will solve this. This is their town and no stone will be left unturned. It’s just a matter of time.

MOO

 

[Whatif1964]

Was just trying to picture the neighborhood a little better, so googled the address. Upon using street view from Oct, 2021,noticed the white car pulled off the road, in what appears to be next door to the students house.Just my observation and someone else may have already noticed this. Just an observation.

 

[10ofRods]

I keep thinking about how many have talked about how unusual this case is, quadruple murder with a knife, three women and a man, not a lot to compare it to, etc. I know this is a stretch, but thinking about the psychology behind it, if the killer were an ego-based thrill killer, is it possible that he designed this to be unusual, something 'incomparable'? Is that even a thing or is it just compulsion? I know it seems like a silly question, but just wondering if anyone knows or has heard of this. NOT saying that this killer is that, this is more a general question re the psychology of it.

It is very possible that it’s a “thing.” Because whoever did this is likely a psychopath and if they are a serial offender, and it’s for “entertainment,” then we can only guess at the victimology.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

As we celebrate the holidays, is the killer celebrating too, with family, friends? This person is not acting outside their usual appearance?

The Yorkshire Ripper hosted a family bbq within hours of hammering and knifing a woman to death. Cold as ice. Jmo

 

[sunshineray]

They're joking around. As students do every day of the week and in every context (including the classroom and the hallowed halls of academia).



There is - in the usual place. There is no release or transcript of the 911 call, AFAIK and I don't believe there ever will be.

It doesn't look or sound like joking, IMO. Also why take a surreptitious picture of the people behind you, one just waiting on his food order and the other someone tagging along with you? Odd how the tagging along guy doesn't, if he's the same guy friend with them in the street video when A was being discussed, just stand with them and chat while they're waiting on their food. Also odd why they ditched (that's my take on it from watching the Grub Truck video) this same friend and didn't say see ya, bye, we got a ride or offer him a ride.

I'm not one who thinks the above behaviors are no big deal. Considering these two young women wind up dead not long after, any interactions like these could be relevant and not just normal joking around. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Understand that this is within a more rural small town environment rather than a city. There is an unusual amount of factors to consider. In mathematical terms what is the value of 4 factorial ? It is 24 variations of possible interactions between the victims. However, if we include the suspect we have 5 factors which increases. to 120 combinations and keep adding a variable factor to 6 factorial. That number becomes 720 combinations of possible relationships. The relationship between the victims suspect, the University, the community creates a very complex set of conditions that solve the problem.

Possibly...or the solution could be very simple, straightforward and known, the complexity may have to do with the successful prosecution of this quadruple murder.

 

[AngTxGal]

In October 1989 I was working with a theater company. Long evening rehearsals downtown, then driving home late, midnight, 1:00 a.m. After one of those rehearsals, I was waiting on a stoplight at a well-lit intersection. I noticed a man leaning casually against the wall of a brick building, hands in pockets, one leg bent at the knee. At first glance, he was attractive - blond hair, jeans, well-worn denim jacket. I looked again. On second glance, there was something wrong about him. Uneasiness suddenly overtook me. Instinctively I realized that he was waiting to be seen, waiting to be approached. Not by me, but by a person of his own choosing. I wanted the light to turn green. When it did, I looked back over my left shoulder one last time to check my silly reaction. But it held, he was all bad ju-ju, skin crawling. I floored it, drove home fast and never forgot him. It turned out to have been Jeffrey Dahmer. I recognized him instantly on July 25, 1991, during his first televised court appearance.

Wow, Listen to your gut feelings!
I grew up on a small city of 10k, played sports. The principal of our middle school was a ref at our basketball games, same church, was friends with my parents, had two sons near my age. I knew these boys from school, church, gatherings at homes, camps and such for many years. One of the two asked me out about once a month through high school. He was cute funny but I saw him as full of himself, a bit of a player. His brother dated and married a friend of mine. I adored his mom, she was a piano teacher. Our parents were close friends that even traveled together. Despite his persistence I never dated him.
He was arrested at about 28 yrs old, multiple counts of statutory rape of 14 and 16 yr old girls where he worked as a coach. The last I heard he was headed back to prison.
I cannot imagine how he ever was born to those parents, I cannot imagine the pain of having to live in a small town with everyone knowing who your son turned out to be.

JMO